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In the beginning...(with a twist) - 7/9/2005 9:39:17 AM   
anthrosub


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Edit note: I should have done this in the first place.

*****
Disclaimer:
Do not read this thread if you are sensitive or otherwise offended in the least by discussions of alternative world views. The points I make are intended to put ideas on the table and engage in discussing them. There is no effort (stated or implied) to convert anyone's point of view to my own. If you choose to read this and you are sensitive, I ask you to please offer your disagreement and refrain from posting on the defensive.

Thank you
*****


I'm starting this topic apart from the evolution/creation thread because although it's related somewhat, I think it stands apart. What you're about to read is the result of my personnal journey of exploration into all the big questions about life and draws from many areas of study...plus my own thinking. I don't claim it to be fact and as far as I know, nobody else has proposed something like this, so I'm not quoting anyone else. I ask the reader to merely put aside their own convictions for a moment, long enough to consider the possibility of what I'm proposing.

I'm sure everyone at some point in their life has wondered who they are, where did everything come from and where is it all going. I first started seriously thinking about this at the age of 10, when I started reading books from the library about dinosaurs and the age of the earth as described in the texts. It occurred to me one day that the bible makes no reference to any animals not currently in existence. From that day until the present, I have spent most of my life seeking information that points to an answer.

The areas that I draw from specifically are archeology, paleontology, philosophy, psychology, physics, geology, sociology, mathematics, and religion. The rest is my own thinking...gleaned from putting all that I've learned together and thinking it through. I could sit here and write a long, thoroughly detailed outline (it will be long enough as it is) of all the points along the way but I'm sure this would be more than anyone wants to read at the outset. I would be happy to explore anything anyone wants to discuss in subsequent posts.

So, consider this...
We are all human beings sharing a similar physiological makeup (most importantly the brain). When we are born, the brain is still growing and not fully developed. Although we begin having experiences at the day of birth (probably even while still in the womb), we have no memories to speak of...yet. It takes roughly a year of exposure to our parent's language before we can talk and begin to form sentences to express ourselves.

By the age of roughly two years old, our brain has developed enough and our language acquistion has matured to the point that we start experiencing our own thoughts (and those of others communicated through language). We have also accumulated memories and these memories lay the foundation for what will eventually become our identity. From here on, we slowly begin to identify ourselves through thinking...we become self-aware and develop an ego.

Our parents, syblings, friends at school and in the neighborhood, teachers, books, TV, and everything else we come in contact with feeds our memory and refines our identity. In some cases, we are told who we are outright (i.e., "You're a boy not a girl.") and in many others we are taught (i.e., "You're an American."). We also have experiences where we tell ourselves who we are (i.e., "I broke the window and my parents are angry with me, so I'm a bad person.").

The point here is all that we "know" comes from memory...thought. As we continue through our lives, every new experience is interpreted through the filter of our own thoughts and those thoughts come from our memory. Original thinking, is the experience of taking what we know and extrapolating a new perspective. This is something we see in children all the time...why?...because children don't have a large memory base to draw from and have not yet developed the habits we all display as we get older (personality, behavior, likes, dislikes, etc.).

We are in a very real sense...who we think we are. But because we can see that there's things we don't know, we ask questions hoping to get answers. We know that we don't know because we experienced the process of learning something new many, many times. Now here is where things get interesting.

For some reason, we can't be content with simply not knowing. Something about the makeup of our ego compels us to find an answer by any means necessary. It's seems the ego is so accustomed to getting an answer that it simply can't accept that maybe there really isn't one. But what I suggest here is not that there isn't an answer but that this is simply a product of how our brain is structured and how we use it. This is one indicator of how we as human beings are all inwardly alike.

If, as I just outlined we are what we think, then the "unknown" is outside that sphere of information. This sounds simple but wait...what I'm saying is who we really are includes all that is outside that sphere. What the ego is struggling with is trying to do something it cannot do...step outside the boundaries of its own makeup. Occasionally it does happen, such as having an epiphany...a realization that in effect is a sudden spontaneous leap of understanding. It happens because for a brief moment, the mind has gone quiet and opened itself up to taking in information without filtering it first.

This is what is meant by, "Lose your mind and come to your senses."

Think about this description I've offered. It makes plausible how much of what we see around us in the world came to be. Why people resist each other based on culture, religion, politics, or simply why two individuals need to go through an adjustment period while learning to live together. It explains why we have religion and science to begin with and why one is preferable to some and not to others. When someone says, "This is what I believe or this is my theory..." what they are really saying is, "This is what I think."

I'm drawn to science because it emulates how the brain works to begin with. To me, religion fills the void where the ego insists there must be an answer. Back in the mid-1980's a man named James Burke produced a program shown on PBS titled, "The Day the Universe Changed." You can see it on the Discovery Channel from time to time. He also co-wrote a book titled, "The Axemaker's Gift" and I highly recommend them both.

anthrosub


< Message edited by anthrosub -- 7/10/2005 2:37:38 AM >


_____________________________

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RE: In the beginning...(with a twist) - 7/9/2005 10:35:56 AM   
sub4hire


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Anthro,
You're clearly trying to reach out to people here. Are you trying to get someone to stand on your side and belive the way you do?
Or just to understand and believe?

I'm someone who has been to almost 400 funerals now in my life. Yes, I've thought about life, god and everything for many year's.
I have my own theories...but they are too long to type here.
So, if you'd like you can e-mail me at [email protected] and I'll try to summarize.

Maybe if I manage to type it where it is understandable I'll post it here as well.

I am the first one to admit though, I honestly do not know I just have multiple theories.

(in reply to anthrosub)
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RE: In the beginning...(with a twist) - 7/9/2005 11:23:22 AM   
pleasureforHim


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anthro..you are asking people for their world views..or belief systems; apparently to see whether any are comparable to yours. why you'd need that reassurance is a bit hard to grasp...are you experiencing a crisis?

However, i will summarize mine here. From early childhood, i could stand near a person, or better yet, touch them, and get a sense of them..and know some were very evil. i was able to use this information to navigate in shark-infested waters and survive. i never questioned it; it was just a part of me.

As i grew into a teenager., i knew to get a switchblade and i knew to use it when necessary (twice). i was guided; my hand was not my own. Again, i did not question it; it was a part of me.

My high school was plagued by riots over busing; there were days i skipped school and an especially bad riot occured in which a student was killed. i did not question why i skipped school.

In my marriage, i managed to survive and eventually leave with my daughter and achieve a divorce...something my ex had NEVER expected me to do. It was a rare and especially difficult accomplishment and it is among the highest accomplishments of my life. Again, i was guided; and i do not question that guidance.

So now, at 51, searching for a Dom or Master for a life partner, i do not question what has happened either. Or what will happen. i have trust in God...He has brought me through the dark times and will bring me through my search with a newfound sense of peace and joy, whether i find my One or not.

In short, i find life is full of mysteries and i am qute comfortable with that. i have no problem accepting that such mysteries exist and living with them..it is just a part of life. i do not need to wish them away by trying to slap a "scientific" label on them. i find them comforting...and i thank God for all the gifts He has granted me.

pleasureforHim


< Message edited by pleasureforHim -- 7/9/2005 11:30:06 AM >

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RE: In the beginning...(with a twist) - 7/9/2005 12:24:27 PM   
anthrosub


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It's interesting...that you both have asked if I'm seeking validation or having a crisis of some sort. Could this be some of the resistance I was talking about? The truth is I enjoy this sort of food for thought and batting around ideas. It would be quite boring to talk with someone who can only tell me the same things in return. It's not about finding out whether I'm right or wrong; it's about offering a perspective and seeing what others have to say about it other than telling me I'm right or wrong.

Because this subject matter touches the core of our being, I expect some degree of irritation or hostility from some but that's not why I post my thoughts. It's just the nature of the beast. What good is it to have all these perceptions if I don't put them out there for others to consider?

I posted in another thread some things that have contributed to shaping my life. But I will add here that I've had two occasions where I narrowly escaped being murdered and three times was almost killed in accidents. Fortunately I was able to survive all these intact but being that close to death does bring one very, very close to the here and now. It's like a window that gives you vision that you don't normally have available to you and as the window closes, you get a glimpse of how the mind works in the day to day management of your life because you now have a contrast to work with.

Some people (maybe the majority...I don't know for certain) don't have this sort of exposure to draw from. So for me, it's like having stepped off the beaten path and seen something only to return and want to tell everyone what I saw. It's like Plato's cave in "The Republic." Anyone who's read that description will know immediately what I'm trying to say here.

anthrosub


< Message edited by anthrosub -- 7/9/2005 9:58:45 PM >


_____________________________

"It is easier to fool people than it is to convince them they have been fooled." - Mark Twain

"I am not young enough to know everything." - Oscar Wilde

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RE: In the beginning...(with a twist) - 7/9/2005 3:50:14 PM   
kisshou


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I read your post many times , it is a very interesting and well presented point of view.

I am just left wondering where instinctual reactions fit in...

What about intuition?

I think human beings needing to have voids filled, it is the basis of survival, without it we as a race would stagnate and die off.

Also this is no way diminishes the contribution of science to humanity but contrast that to how religious visionaries have shaped human's existance on earth.




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RE: In the beginning...(with a twist) - 7/9/2005 5:02:05 PM   
anthrosub


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I'm no authority on instinct and don't claim to be. Clearly there's something going on as we see it not only in ourselves but other life forms as well. It just seems to be more salient in animals.

Here are some things I've come across while looking into the nature of instinct...

Animals don't have the higher functioning part of the brain that we do. Because of this, they literally live in the present all the time. In other words, they don't have experiences and interpret meaning. They simply act. On the other hand, animals that do have larger brains display more memory-like behavior.

Some of what was once believed to be "instinct" has been explained. Salmon smell their way back to the river of their birth to spawn. Geese establish a pecking order and the dominant geese lead the flock. Those that fly as "wingmen" learn the route and eventually become the new leaders. Ants find their way back to the nest by laying down a breadcrumb trail of pheromones (if it rains, they get lost).

But other things remain a mystery...self-preservation being one of them. All animals will take steps to avoid danger. How they do it can be learned from their parents or their group but that doesn't explain the motivation. I've also come across the proposition of "genetic" memory. Something at the DNA level that's recorded over generations determines or contributes towards current behavior. This is something fairly new as I recall but does seem interesting.

anthrosub


_____________________________

"It is easier to fool people than it is to convince them they have been fooled." - Mark Twain

"I am not young enough to know everything." - Oscar Wilde

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RE: In the beginning...(with a twist) - 7/9/2005 5:38:52 PM   
darkinshadows


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Well, anthro

I have read your words, and I am so happy you have something you can follow and believe in - and its great that you feel comfortable in such a theory.
But as I read your words - I am struggling to find out who you are trying to convert?
I know you feel that people might be thinking you seek validation or crisis - as you have stated. My view? Your trying to convert. Not that it's a bad thing - but I am constantly finding that you are being exactly that which you are coming across as opposing. The only difference is - science is your religion.

Its great you love theory and looking deeper... I am a great one for that too. But I am a christian. I never in my life wondered where I came from because I knew. My mother and father had sex and I am a result. Nothing big or new there. WHere am I going? No idea - I just wander where the paths take me. DO I need validation for my belief? Nope - no one can give me that except God, IMO. How about christianity as a crutch? Why bother - if I can't walk, I will hop - no biggie.
Thing is, I listen, I am open to everything and I hear. Not everyone, as you have stated - needs to know where they come from - constantly anthro, as much as I love your posts - you generalise. The way you were raised - isn't the way I was. I was raised as an individual not just a boy/girl - I was loved, cared for - knowing I could make mistakes and have accidents without thinking I was a bad person. You asked me specifically in another post not to go through your words like I do - but thats what I do - intricatly - because I adore words - You asked me to accept your difference to me, which I do completely - yet you are continuing to run down all religion - like its nothing whereas your belief has all the answers - not just for you, but if people aren't so negative to each other and it, them as well. Well - at least that is the perception to some - religious and non religious alike. Why the desire to make yourself heard? Conversion.

My religion? Is the religion of God and Love. You don't have to accept that for yourself, but please allow me to believe what I know and see, without yourself claiming it false or indoctrinated or nurtured or anything. My parents are not religious. My family have mixed religions - buddist, christian, catholic, pagan - my best friend who passed away was a wiccan.
I had my 'ephiphany' when I was in my late teens. And I am totally at ease and happy with it. I don't have a need to come here or anywhere to spout my belief - I do this now, yes - because you have opened such a door to me. But the truth is - it really doesn't matter what I or You say about our beliefs. People will believe what they desire to - not because of some inherant need, but because they see something they like and they will aspire to that 'power'. I don't want to convert anyone - or make them see that evolution might be wrong, or that buddism is naive or that all catholics are heratics - But what I do want is for people to know only love at least once in their life. To know that sometimes - nothing can be everything and that everything can be so empty without nothing.

Love is the biggest sacrifice anyone can ever make. It can hurt like fuck to give it away, but to recieve it is to see - at least in my opinion - God.

I am not asking you to believe in it. Just see it and accept it will exist.

Peace and Love


_____________________________


.dark.




...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

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RE: In the beginning...(with a twist) - 7/9/2005 8:49:45 PM   
anthrosub


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quote:

But as I read your words - I am struggling to find out who you are trying to convert?


This is about knocking around ideas...nothing more. If you wish to interpret my postings as an attempt to convert people, that's your meaning...not mine. You're a christian, so it's only natural for you to think I'm trying to convert others. This is a good example of the filter I was talking about.

quote:

I know you feel that people might be thinking you seek validation or crisis - as you have stated.


I don't feel this at all, it's what they stated and I simply noted what they said.

quote:

My view? Your trying to convert. Not that it's a bad thing - but I am constantly finding that you are being exactly that which you are coming across as opposing. The only difference is - science is your religion.


(sigh) It's clear to me my posts are getting under your skin, else you wouldn't have written this post at all and instead had something to add to it or explore some part of it. I've included a disclaimer, not stated anywhere that what I say is gospel but in spite of my efforts, you can't help not take some degree of offense.

quote:

Its great you love theory and looking deeper... I am a great one for that too.


Right now, you're not demonstrating this very well.

quote:

But I am a christian. I never in my life wondered where I came from because I knew. My mother and father had sex and I am a result. Nothing big or new there. WHere am I going? No idea - I just wander where the paths take me. DO I need validation for my belief? Nope - no one can give me that except God, IMO. How about christianity as a crutch? Why bother - if I can't walk, I will hop - no biggie.


I'm a part of your world...your identity (or don't you understand that?). If you're so content with things just as they are and have absolute peace in your heart about your identity, why did you write this post?

quote:

Thing is, I listen, I am open to everything and I hear.


This post of yours compared to what I've written shows you listen to and hear what you want and respond based on that interpretation, which is exactly what I've been saying people do. Thanks for being a case and point.

quote:

Not everyone, as you have stated - needs to know where they come from - constantly anthro, as much as I love your posts - you generalise.


Oops! You made a mistake here. I said I'm sure people have asked themselves those questions...nothing about needing anything. Yes, I generalize. If I didn't, I'd be writing a book giving details specifically tailored for every person on earth. Most people do this and most people recognize why it's necessary and don't take it the wrong way.

quote:

The way you were raised - isn't the way I was. I was raised as an individual not just a boy/girl - I was loved, cared for - knowing I could make mistakes and have accidents without thinking I was a bad person.


See previous reply just above. These were generalizations meant as examples to demonstrate what I'm saying. They don't apply to anyone in particular. Doesn't anything I say come across to you accurately the first time?

quote:

You asked me specifically in another post not to go through your words like I do - but thats what I do - intricatly - because I adore words -


With respect, I'm glad you don't edit dictionaries for a living.

quote:

You asked me to accept your difference to me, which I do completely - yet you are continuing to run down all religion - like its nothing whereas your belief has all the answers - not just for you, but if people aren't so negative to each other and it, them as well.


Opposing views are by definition at odds with each other. This never implies one is trying to destroy the other. Ever heard of Yin and Yang? It's the tension in life that is ever present. You're feeling it when reading my posts, that's all. Please remain calm.

quote:

Well - at least that is the perception to some - religious and non religious alike. Why the desire to make yourself heard? Conversion.


Conversion? Try self-expression.

quote:

My religion? Is the religion of God and Love. You don't have to accept that for yourself, but please allow me to believe what I know and see, without yourself claiming it false or indoctrinated or nurtured or anything. My parents are not religious. My family have mixed religions - buddist, christian, catholic, pagan - my best friend who passed away was a wiccan.


Stop taking what I say so personal. It will save us both a lot of time and effort. I have a sister who was a devout Catholic for twenty years until her priest told her who really wrote the bible. Next she tried Wicca but that didn't give her the answers she was looking for. Now she believes in pixies and elves. She's looking everywhere but where she needs to...inside herself.

quote:

I had my 'ephiphany' when I was in my late teens. And I am totally at ease and happy with it. I don't have a need to come here or anywhere to spout my belief - I do this now, yes - because you have opened such a door to me. But the truth is - it really doesn't matter what I or You say about our beliefs. People will believe what they desire to - not because of some inherant need, but because they see something they like and they will aspire to that 'power'. I don't want to convert anyone - or make them see that evolution might be wrong, or that buddism is naive or that all catholics are heratics - But what I do want is for people to know only love at least once in their life. To know that sometimes - nothing can be everything and that everything can be so empty without nothing.


Yes I agree, with each newborn the whole thing starts all over again. Love, like truth, is a fleeting word. We all know what it is and yet we can never really describe it completely. But I can say this about truth...if something is true then it has nothing to fear and no reason to be defensive. It will stand all tests.

quote:

Love is the biggest sacrifice anyone can ever make. It can hurt like fuck to give it away, but to recieve it is to see - at least in my opinion - God.

I am not asking you to believe in it. Just see it and accept it will exist.


And please accept that my posts discuss things outside your personal view of the world. It's simply a matter of consequence that they touch on your beliefs. Keep in mind, there are others besides yourself that are reading these messages who may or may not agree with either of us. But most importantly...realize the difference between disagreeing with someone and taking it personally. Learn to be objective.

Thank you for your thoughts. This is not a flame.

anthrosub


< Message edited by anthrosub -- 7/10/2005 2:47:42 AM >


_____________________________

"It is easier to fool people than it is to convince them they have been fooled." - Mark Twain

"I am not young enough to know everything." - Oscar Wilde

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RE: In the beginning...(with a twist) - 7/10/2005 3:45:54 AM   
darkinshadows


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quote:

But I can say this about truth...if something is true then it has nothing to fear and no reason to be defensive. It will stand all tests.


Then why do you keep feeling the need to write about it and defend it - thats the point I don't get.
You are constantly saying its because of my belief, or my thoughts or that I am not accepting your Idea - everyhting you are doing. People only think about people the way they percieve things to themselves.

I do understand your not flaming, nor am I - just trying to discuss many points of view like everyone else. Just have to accept that if You post on an open forum, people, like me, will respond - not because Its getting under my skin - not because I take it personally - but because I can.

Thank goodness for the freedom I have to do that - same as you - alot of other peoples don't have that choice.

So just because someone doesn't agree with you, or doesn't choose to follow your religion - don't dress it down as some sort of vendetta or put labels on other people 'it's because of this'...

This is my last post upon this, because I enjoy a discussion - not enjoying being told what I maybe thinking according to someone else - or told I must need to defend, when that is the exact way someone else is coming across. You gave out ideas and thoughts and a personal insight into you - and thats wonderful and helpful - but just because someone replies with their own thoughts, ideas and personal insight - doesn't make them defensive or upset - it makes them open and viewing a post and believing it has the ability to evolve into a great discussion.

Unfortuantely - any closed mind does not allow that.
It's talking around in circles.

Peace and much Love.


_____________________________


.dark.




...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

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RE: In the beginning...(with a twist) - 7/10/2005 4:29:59 AM   
kisshou


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quote:

ORIGINAL: anthrosub
I first started seriously thinking about this at the age of 10, when I started reading books from the library about dinosaurs and the age of the earth as described in the texts. It occurred to me one day that the bible makes no reference to any animals not currently in existence.

anthrosub


Actually, the Hebrew word for 'dragon' ('tan' with its variations) can be found 30 times within the Old Testament! In the interests of space, I don't propose to go through all of these here but Strong's Concordance would be of help to go through those texts in detail. By the way, as Ken Ham points out,
"...Strong's Concordance lists 'dinosaur' as one of the meanings of tannin/m"
(Ken Ham, page 12).

Let it suffice for me to point out that Job 41 describes a great sea animal which could apparently breathe fire, the Leviathan. The 'fiery flying serpent' of Isaiah 30:6 sounds very much like one of the flying dinosaurs such as the Pterodactyls. Then there is the 'behemoth'. We cannot be sure just what this was, but those Bible commentaries which have decided on something like an elephant, are probably way off course. But the description is not unlike a Brachiosaurus.


I read this in an article online so can not verify its accuracy. I am hoping dark~angel can :)

Dinosaurs- When did they live?

Just thought it was interesting :)

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RE: In the beginning...(with a twist) - 7/10/2005 10:42:30 AM   
darkinshadows


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Hi kisshou

Yes, You are quite correct. Dinosaurs are mentioned in the bible numerous times. Job(oldest) genesis, deut, lev, Isisah,pslams... lol... I could go on.

I am sure someone might mention the whale/sea snake or elephant/rhino analagy, however they are words that certainly were not anything to do with those animals.

As kisshou mentions - leviathan, behmoth, tannin - others include 'monokeros' and 're-em' and Hebrew word, which literely means flying snakes.

It's really easy to take the texts without studying them in their original forms and say that certain things do and don't exist. Its good to remember that their are words in hebrew and greek that do not exist in english translations - and that also english words were added during translation to make it easier to read.

The bible, as an example, is full of scientific facts that science has been able to verify - I think it is important to understand that religion and science works in complete harmony and not try to cause a seperation of the two because that is just kind of dangerous to try to cause rifts between two things that contain complimentry information. Some men(and women - lol - so I don't appear sexist!) have been trying for years to try and make one section of the world less important than another -instead of being open. Bible and science theory is no different. All fundemental sections will try to seperate.

As for the article, I can't verify that specifically kisshou - I did read the link and found it quite harsh reading to be honest. It was a little fundmental in its tone - lol - as you prolly realised, thats not my favourite thing - but there are many articles to read about dinosaurs and how its relevant to the bible and visa versa. I admit to not being a great fan of Ken Ham at all - I personally think that science proves the bible is real, relevant and true rather than underminding it and that the way Ham misuses dinosaurs mentioned in the bible as a way of discounting evolution as rather naive on his part. Evolution happens - and trying to use the bible to discount it is as usless as using science to prove that the bible is fiction.(IMO)

Peace and Love


Peace and Love

_____________________________


.dark.




...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

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RE: In the beginning...(with a twist) - 7/10/2005 12:53:35 PM   
anthrosub


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quote:

Then why do you keep feeling the need to write about it and defend it - thats the point I don't get.


First, let me say I'm with you on hashing things out and not interested in a flame contest. I'm very happy you feel this way.

Now on to your reply...

By way of an answer to your question above, let me ask you what makes you think my posts constitute a need to defend the subject? I've stated in this thread many times that I posted for the sole reason to knock around ideas with others who are interested. Are you not seeing that?

quote:

You are constantly saying its because of my belief, or my thoughts or that I am not accepting your Idea - everyhting you are doing. People only think about people the way they percieve things to themselves.


I would venture to say you're responding to your own take on my intent. I have not stated anywhere that you don't accept my idea, instead I've stated we have opposing views. That's not the same thing. Why? Because if I stated you don't accept my view, that implies I think you should. But by saying they are in opposition, I'm saying we agree to disagree and nothing more.

quote:

I do understand your not flaming, nor am I - just trying to discuss many points of view like everyone else. Just have to accept that if You post on an open forum, people, like me, will respond - not because Its getting under my skin - not because I take it personally - but because I can.


You're correct. This is an open forum and people will respond because they can. But your replies are not simply posing an alternative to what I've had to say. What you keep doing is posting why you think I'm posting the subject matter, which has nothing to do with its content. You also keep saying I'm dragging down religion and attacking your beliefs. To this I've replied that it's merely a consequence of the subject and not meant as an attack per se. Do you understand what I'm saying here?

quote:

Thank goodness for the freedom I have to do that - same as you - alot of other peoples don't have that choice.


Agreed.

quote:

So just because someone doesn't agree with you, or doesn't choose to follow your religion - don't dress it down as some sort of vendetta or put labels on other people 'it's because of this'...


See above where I start with, "You're correct..."

quote:

This is my last post upon this, because I enjoy a discussion - not enjoying being told what I maybe thinking according to someone else - or told I must need to defend, when that is the exact way someone else is coming across.


This is exactly what you're doing to me in your replies...telling me why I'm posting this subject and accusing me of telling you what you should think. This is the circle you speak of below.

quote:

You gave out ideas and thoughts and a personal insight into you - and thats wonderful and helpful - but just because someone replies with their own thoughts, ideas and personal insight - doesn't make them defensive or upset - it makes them open and viewing a post and believing it has the ability to evolve into a great discussion.

Unfortuantely - any closed mind does not allow that.
It's talking around in circles.


Again, your posts have been more about why you think I'm bringing up the subject rather than talking about the subject itself. That's the heart of the matter and what's been fueling our exchange.

anthrosub


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(in reply to darkinshadows)
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RE: In the beginning...(with a twist) - 7/10/2005 1:20:08 PM   
anthrosub


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Thanks for your thoughts. I stand corrected about references to creatures other than those existing today.

But...

I know from my studies in archeology that bones of dinosaurs and some of the animals such as wooly mammoths and other giant mammals from the ice age were found in excavations of ancient villages and towns in parts of Europe and around the Mediterranean Sea. There's even a ceramic pot with the skull (not the head as it would have appeared if alive) of one of these animals painted on the outside and given a body. It depicts a king fighting the creature to complete the picture.

This suggests that the creatures found in ancient, pre-biblical mythology were inspired by these bones. Humans were still in the stone age when large mammals like the wooly mammoth still existed. I think it's a bit of a stretch to say the references in the bible are specific to dinosaurs; if for no other reason than the fact that they died out millions of years before humans appeared. It's more likely the mythology was incorporated into the bible as it was being written. Writing is less than 6000 years old and civilization has been around for roughly 15000 years. The Age of Mammals ended tens of thousands of years before civilizations appeared, so there was ample time for these myths to have been refined and accepted by the people living during that period.

Now for my disclaimer...this is all based on accepting evolution and the time scale as determined by the geologic record. It is a theory based on physical evidence and nothing more. I don't propose that what I've said here is the only acceptable explanation.

anthrosub


_____________________________

"It is easier to fool people than it is to convince them they have been fooled." - Mark Twain

"I am not young enough to know everything." - Oscar Wilde

(in reply to kisshou)
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RE: In the beginning...(with a twist) - 7/10/2005 1:49:43 PM   
wednesday


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*cracks knuckles* *jumps in*

When it comes to biblical translations you have to remember a whole slew of language problems. The differences between hebrew and aramaic, the differences between both of those and greek, the difference between greek and latin, latin and english, etc etc etc. We know better now. Unless y'all still think Moses had horns... Add on to that the tainting of text for political reasons, for societal reasons... and you've got one big mess. And THEN bear in mind that the new testament is (if you want to believe it was written by who credits themselves) written by a bunch of guys who are basically saying "yeah, I was there, man! I saw it! I MET Jesus and he said this..."

If someone jumped up today and said he was a prophet and had had a vision and God showed him the way... he would most likely be medicated for schizophrenia. I'm not endorsing that behavior, I'm just saying we should look at how society has changed... and yet people still believe the words of someone who did essentially the same thing thousands of years ago.

As for dinosaurs in the bible... that's great and all but you have to remember that with advancing scientific technology they are discovering that "dinosaur" might not even be an appropriate name as they may have not been lizard-like at all. A whale seems pretty big when you're used to trout... (wait... do they have trout in Africa?) And with carbon dating technology it is right there in black and white how long dinosaurs were extinct before humans showed up. Maybe archaeology was big 2 or 3,000 years ago, too.

And as for the OP... there's the old idiom: "that's what separates us from the animals." Some people say the use of tools but since otters and lower primates and all sorts of animals use tools, that doesn't work... some say it's reasoning/deductive skill, but if you put a sealed jar with a fish in it in front of an octopus, it'll figure out how to uncrew the lid. So... maybe it's our drive for philosophy/speculation?

Personally I think what separates us from animals is pure genetic luck of the draw. And imagine what we'd be capable of if we used more of our brains!

I agree with you that balance is required; point and counterpoint, known and unknown. Theory is what moves us forward. Someone says "I think x = y" and there will be at least one person who says "NO IT DOESN'T! And I'll PROVE it!" Hence, advancement. Even if they fail to prove it wrong, or inadvertantly prove it right... a discovery has been made, and that makes room for MORE theory.

Whenever someone thinks they have proven God exists, it is often exactly their argument that proves to cynics that God in fact does not.

I don't know if that made ANY sense...

(in reply to darkinshadows)
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RE: In the beginning...(with a twist) - 7/10/2005 3:53:42 PM   
kisshou


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quote:

ORIGINAL: anthrosub

I don't propose that what I've said here is the only acceptable explanation.

anthrosub


Would you be so kind to sum up what you are saying in one sentence. I am confused...explanation for what?

quote:

ORIGINAL: wednesday

If someone jumped up today and said he was a prophet and had had a vision and God showed him the way... he would most likely be medicated for schizophrenia. I'm not endorsing that behavior, I'm just saying we should look at how society has changed... and yet people still believe the words of someone who did essentially the same thing thousands of years ago.

I don't know if that made ANY sense...


Pretty amazing isn't it.
Yes, your post made sense to me (am still thinking about it)

(in reply to anthrosub)
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RE: In the beginning...(with a twist) - 7/10/2005 3:58:47 PM   
anthrosub


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wednesday,
I'm glad you brought up the point about language. What happens through translation is always a problem, even in real time as it's happening in the thread between dark~angel and myself. Meaning gets skewed...it's something that fuels controversy more often than many people realize.

Religion and politics...I remember in my religion class at Catholic University (War, Peace, and Religion) learning that when christianity was in its infancy, it was a totally pacifist theology. But once the Roman emperor adopted it as the official religion, the religious folks had to come up with a justification for warfare as the Empire was fighting invaders from the north. This is a field of study in itself, generally referred to as "Just/Unjust Warfare." The church has on several occasions had to restate its position throughout history.

As to what separates us from animals, right now it seems to be how much we use memory. Animals have memory, too but only a fraction of our capacity. We store our experiences and draw from them to understand what our senses are feeding the mind in real time. We even have experiences of our remembered experiences.

Memory creates all sorts of illusions, like the idea of time. What is time when you think about it? We have a memory of something that happened last night before we went to sleep, we wake up today and remember it and call the interval between when it actually happened and this morning "time." We do the same thing when we make an appointment to go to the dentist. We remember the appointment in our memory and go get our teeth cleaned. So time is thought or at least thought based. We invented time and measure it with clocks and calendars.

Memory also creates habits. We are all habitual creatures. We do the same things over and over until we don't even think about it. Even something like walking or riding a bicycle is a habit of sorts. When we were children, we fell down because we tried to think each moment of the process until we got so accustomed to it, we did it without thinking about it. In other words, we developed a habit of walking or riding a bike.

You can take this and apply it to our identity, too. We have similar experiences every day of our lives that reinforce our identity. This creates the illusion that our identity is something like an entity but is it? Do we "have" a body separate from ourselves? That's a convention of the language we use. We don't have a body, we are a body. We've had our identity for so long we don't think about how it got started in the first place. This suggests some pretty heavy revelations if you follow it through.

anthrosub


_____________________________

"It is easier to fool people than it is to convince them they have been fooled." - Mark Twain

"I am not young enough to know everything." - Oscar Wilde

(in reply to wednesday)
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RE: In the beginning...(with a twist) - 7/10/2005 4:04:57 PM   
anthrosub


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kishou,
Sorry for the confusion. I should have written "...the only acceptable view about the references to animals in the bible." Writing about this stuff is getting to be a bit of a minefield and I'm trying to be careful where I step.

anthrosub


_____________________________

"It is easier to fool people than it is to convince them they have been fooled." - Mark Twain

"I am not young enough to know everything." - Oscar Wilde

(in reply to kisshou)
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RE: In the beginning...(with a twist) - 7/10/2005 4:12:57 PM   
AAkasha


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quote:

ORIGINAL: anthrosub

kishou,
Sorry for the confusion. I should have written "...the only acceptable view about the references to animals in the bible." Writing about this stuff is getting to be a bit of a minefield and I'm trying to be careful where I step.

anthrosub



I'm an open minded agnostic, but Ssilver is an atheist and probably has read a lot of the same books you have. Science, human consciousness, philosophy, biology of the mind. The conversations we have are pretty interesting. He generally has a scientific answer for any human condition I can identify. However, it still doesn't make some of the spiritual arguments and things I've seen pretty compelling. The problem is that you can't quantify it, measure it, or have any kind of research to recreate it in a lab.

None of this has anything to do with the Bible, but I will bring up a book that I've heard is supposed to be pretty compelling (I haven't read it, so I can't say). Apparently it was written by an atheist with the intent to prove his points, but he changed his mind after writing it (or, so the pitch goes). It's called "The case for christ" and for an avid reader it'd probably take you a few hours to get through based on the size of it. I don't have enough knowledge of the Bible or religious background for it to be relevant to me, and any of my spiritual leanings aren't really based in religion anyway. You might find it interesting though.

Akasha

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(in reply to anthrosub)
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RE: In the beginning...(with a twist) - 7/10/2005 4:26:13 PM   
wednesday


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Agreed that the measurement of time is a construct of man. The only definite (only so far as "time") is the rising and setting sun. Unless we suddenly cease rotating on our axis, that is. But dividing that up into numbers is something I've always personally viewed as a coping mechanism. People managed to survive by setting their routine by the sun for many generations (and for that matter measuring by generations rather than years). The application of numbers to it is a salve for the psyche. Much like how people like to know WHAT is going to happen, they often like to know WHEN as well.

We've all heard that goldfish have a 3 second memory, but we can't really confirm that in any way other than measuring brain size/activity. Come to think of it, how DID scientists decide goldfish have a 3 second memory? Sorry, I get distracted. But anyhow, my point is that we can't really prove beyond all doubt that animals don't have memory or concept of time, because we don't have a common language to communicate with each other. And that just comes back to language and mistranslation - wow, I went full circle, it just took more than one post.

Man has always simplified the capabilities of beast. Whether that is ego or the amount of time needed to truly learn these things, I don't know. But much like in the way that people have observed that contrary to prior knowledge, animals are smarter and more similar to humans in a number of ways... perhaps this is another place we just have yet to create an adequate method of measure or observation.

I am thinking specifically of things like discovering certain breeds of birds had problem solving skills, or that homosexual behaviors exist in MANY different species, or that females will adopt orphaned animals of other species... people are making new discoveries every day about animals abilities to express emotions/compassion... who knows what they'll figure out next?

(this is not to say, of course, that I believe animals HAVE memory. Just that I don't know for sure that they DON'T.)

(in reply to anthrosub)
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RE: In the beginning...(with a twist) - 7/10/2005 4:30:01 PM   
onceburned


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First, let me say that I am surprised by the replies this initial message has generated. Anthrosub's comments seemed to me to be reflective and meant to stimulate discussion.

Way back in college I used to enjoy a good epistemological ramble. Its been awhile, and I can't say I have the same enthusiasm for philosophical musings, but let's give it go.

quote:

ORIGINAL: anthrosub
By the age of roughly two years old, our brain has developed enough and our language acquistion has matured to the point that we start experiencing our own thoughts (and those of others communicated through language). We have also accumulated memories and these memories lay the foundation for what will eventually become our identity. From here on, we slowly begin to identify ourselves through thinking...we become self-aware and develop an ego.


Okay.

quote:

The point here is all that we "know" comes from memory...thought. As we continue through our lives, every new experience is interpreted through the filter of our own thoughts and those thoughts come from our memory. Original thinking, is the experience of taking what we know and extrapolating a new perspective.


Okay.

quote:

This is something we see in children all the time...why?...because children don't have a large memory base to draw from and have not yet developed the habits we all display as we get older (personality, behavior, likes, dislikes, etc.).


oops... you don't think young children show personality or likes and dislikes? Have you raised kids? LOL

The more important thing is that I agree with you - we notice children tend to be more 'pure' in their thoughts and emotions. They lack complexity because they do not have the same wealth of experience and interconnected thoughts (memories) that they will acquire as they age.

quote:

For some reason, we can't be content with simply not knowing. Something about the makeup of our ego compels us to find an answer by any means necessary. It's seems the ego is so accustomed to getting an answer that it simply can't accept that maybe there really isn't one.


I am not sure if I agree with you. Plenty of people are quite content not to be curious, and to content themselves with the view that 'what doesn't affect me doesn't matter'.

quote:

What the ego is struggling with is trying to do something it cannot do...step outside the boundaries of its own makeup. Occasionally it does happen, such as having an epiphany...a realization that in effect is a sudden spontaneous leap of understanding. It happens because for a brief moment, the mind has gone quiet and opened itself up to taking in information without filtering it first.


I know both of those feelings well from my college days.

quote:

This is what is meant by, "Lose your mind and come to your senses."


Much like your tagline: "Stop thinking...and end your problems."

Certainly that view is consistent with long traditions of philosophy/spirituality both in the West and in the East.

quote:

Think about this description I've offered. It makes plausible how much of what we see around us in the world came to be. Why people resist each other based on culture, religion, politics, or simply why two individuals need to go through an adjustment period while learning to live together.


Well, yes. Every individual perceives the world through a unique filter and process. Its why five people can be present and observe the same event and yet walk away with different understandings of it.


(in reply to anthrosub)
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