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RE: Why no nation can invade America.... - 8/29/2007 12:54:37 AM

cyberdude611

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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Er...who wants to invade the US apart from illegal immigrants from Mexico? I read somewhere that the US will be bi-lingual by the middle of the century. Nations are in a constant state of flux, they mutate through time and their fortunes rise and fall. With the rise of China, Russia and India, the US will have to learn to compromise and co-exist with other nations but why invade when the US holds nothing any other country wants? The days are gone when soldiers on the ground mean power. Look at the US's military adventures, they have only served to weaken it.
The number of guns in a country are meaningless unless their is a threat of invasion and the US is too big a land mass to hold and why would anyone want to hold it?

The biggest danger to the US is sat in the Oval office in Washington.

Thinking about it, if law breaks down in the US, the biggest danger to the US authorities will be US criminals with guns.

Well Im not too sure.. The US has been "invaded" by immigrants for generations and the one thing that seems to stay consistent is the English language. All the children of the immigrants speak English and Spanish. And by the 2nd or 3rd generations, most will only speak English. My great grandparents were immigrants and I haven't a god damn clue how to say hello in their native language.

Also the statistics also show that the majority of nations with low ratio of guns to people are 3rd world countries and totalitarian regimes. They are not socialist paradises that are crime-free.

Believe it or not....guns are part of American culture. America's founding fathers believed that the only true way to prevent a government from falling into totalitarianism is if the leaders are under a constant threat of revolution and revolt. It states specifically in the Declaration of Independance that the people always have the right to alter or abolish their government.

(in reply to meatcleaver)

Post #: 61

RE: Why no nation can invade America.... - 8/29/2007 1:14:47 AM

meatcleaver

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I have no doubt that guns are a part of the American culture but I think you are stretching it somewhat to say countries with low gun ratios are 3rd world countries or dictatorships. That is pure gun fantasy and something you wish rather than can prove and it is to back up your argument. Democracy has more to do with culture than guns. The reason the US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand have democracies is because they inherited political establishments from Britain. India has a democracy because they took over parts of the British political culture that they thought would serve them well. The Dutch have a long tradition of democracy that is irrelevent to the number of guns in its society. (Democracy being reletive to the period of history you look at).

As for the OP on why no one will invade America. Guns are a red herring. No one wantsd to invade America. Destroy it maybe but not occupy it. If there is a danger to American democracy, the biggest danger comes from Americans and not foreigners. The patriotism that says if you disagree with the state you are 'unAmerican', an idea that people in other democratic countries find laughable. You just can't be unFrench, unBritish, unGerman, unDutch.

EDIT The low gun ratio in Britain is through popular democratic demand, rather like the banning of smoking in public places and has nothing to do with dictatorships.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 8/29/2007 1:28:04 AM >

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Post #: 62

RE: Why no nation can invade America.... - 8/29/2007 1:27:45 AM

kiyari

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quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelOfGeorgia

personally, I think America "needs" another civil war...just to shake up the rich

IMO we need another "Revolutionary" one

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Black Water Dragon

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Post #: 63

RE: Why no nation can invade America.... - 8/29/2007 1:31:15 AM

kiyari

Posts: 631
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Bah... if only gun-owning maniacs stopped shooting, the gun-shot fatalities in America would SHOOT down. Surprise, surprise: the coffin companies would go down at the same rate.

Perhaps it's the funeral industry that's making a real racket out of this shit.

Statistics on gun-control need to count the MURDER RATES (by what-ever method),
rather than KILLINGS-BY-FIREARMS... in order to draw a more meaningful comparison.

_____________________________

Black Water Dragon

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Post #: 64

RE: Why no nation can invade America.... - 8/29/2007 1:31:56 AM

meatcleaver

Posts: 9030
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kiyari

quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelOfGeorgia

personally, I think America "needs" another civil war...just to shake up the rich

IMO we need another "Revolutionary" one

The first one wasn't revolutionary. It was about the political establishment of the colonies seizing power for themselves. The average colonist didn't get anything out of it. Just look at who was in the political establishment then and who is now. You will find many of the same families.

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Post #: 65

RE: Why no nation can invade America.... - 8/29/2007 1:38:41 AM

meatcleaver

Posts: 9030
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kiyari

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Bah... if only gun-owning maniacs stopped shooting, the gun-shot fatalities in America would SHOOT down. Surprise, surprise: the coffin companies would go down at the same rate.

Perhaps it's the funeral industry that's making a real racket out of this shit.

Statistics on gun-control need to count the MURDER RATES (by what-ever method),
rather than KILLINGS-BY-FIREARMS... in order to draw a more meaningful comparison.

You need to look at firearm accidents. I have a Swiss friend who refuses to have a gun in his house because one of the biggest causes of domestic child deaths is through firearm accidents.

The countries with the most gun related deaths are the USA, Switzerland and Finland. The countries with the most firearms in society.

It is a similar argument to the banning of smoking, guns are bad for your health.

http://www.ichv.org/Statistics.htm
A gun kept in the home is 22 times more likely to be used in a homicide, suicide or unintentional shooting than to be used in self-defense.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 8/29/2007 1:42:12 AM >

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There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

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Post #: 66

RE: Why no nation can invade America.... - 8/29/2007 1:40:36 AM

allyC

Posts: 778
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: Las Vegas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol I think it's pretty obvious when people feel they need to be armed against their own government that something is seriously wrong here.

Hola That is precisely why the 2nd amendment was created. Our forefathers learned the hard way how difficult it is to start, conduct, and successfully finish a revolution against tyranny. They never wanted future generations to be rendered helpless if the government became such that another revolution was necessary. I once had someone tell me that only cops should have guns. I asked them.... are cops perfect, benevolent, law abiding people? She said "I don't really know but well, they're cops!" to which I replied, "Ask someone who has been raped by a law enforcement officer." :) Well wishes, Cav's ally

(in reply to kittinSol)

Post #: 67

RE: Why no nation can invade America.... - 8/29/2007 1:45:37 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: allyC

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol I think it's pretty obvious when people feel they need to be armed against their own government that something is seriously wrong here.
Hola That is precisely why the 2nd amendment was created. Our forefathers learned the hard way how difficult it is to start, conduct, and successfully finish a revolution against tyranny. They never wanted future generations to be rendered helpless if the government became such that another revolution was necessary. I once had someone tell me that only cops should have guns. I asked them.... are cops perfect, benevolent, law abiding people? She said "I don't really know but well, they're cops!" to which I replied, "Ask someone who has been raped by a law enforcement officer." :) Well wishes, Cav's ally

Come on, any half educated person knows you are just spouting myth and propaganda here. The arms are to protect the establishment, not democracy or the people.

The biggest danger to American democracy is Americans believing their government governs in their interest.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

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Post #: 68

RE: Why no nation can invade America.... - 8/29/2007 1:46:54 AM

kiyari

Posts: 631
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro

You know, I have guns too - but the absolute pride with which some of you discuss the number of weapons you own is kind of worrying.

Kinda?

Sinergy

p.s. What amuses me are all the gun people who think their gun will somehow protect them when something happens. I had a friend ask me whether all my self defense training would work against his .45. Asked him where his .45 was, he said at home. I told him to run home to get it and I would wait for him. I think he got my point.

...and it was 'at home' because.. he didn't think to carry?
...or perhaps more like, there are restrictions to carrying?

Besides which, this clearly skews the statistics.

Those who "hoard" firearms, make the 'average' gun ownership... misleading,
and I do suspect, to rather a large degree.

For example:
I do not nor have ever owned, any firearms.

...not for lack of interest, though.

Of course, the 'bad guys' will always have what ever weapons they care to have.

As for Me (to obtain one)?

I would have to have 'my papers' in order, and even then,
"permission to own" would not be a certainty.

*sigh*

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Black Water Dragon

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Post #: 69

RE: Why no nation can invade America.... - 8/29/2007 1:47:13 AM

Absolutemaster

Posts: 79
Joined: 9/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aileen68

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy
p.s. I am mainly pointing out that simply owning a gun is only a small fraction of what goes in to defending one's life.

That's true, but owning one does increase my chances of defending myself by giving me one more means of defending myself beyond using my mind, my body and my surroundings.

Hmm... But the legality of owning guns means that the next guy can own them too. So if he didn't own one, there would be one less threat that you had to defend yourself against.

Has anyone heard of a concept called escalation?

(in reply to Aileen68)

Post #: 70

RE: Why no nation can invade America.... - 8/29/2007 2:01:00 AM

cyberdude611

Posts: 2596
Joined: 5/7/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Come on, any half educated person knows you are just spouting myth and propaganda here. The arms are to protect the establishment, not democracy or the people.

"A well-regulated militia, being necessary for the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."
-2nd Amendment, US Constitution.

America's founding fathers believed that guns and the public's ability to form a militia was necessary in order to preserve a free state. Right or wrong, this is what guys like Washington, Franklin, and Jefferson believed. In fact, Thomas Jefferson once stated that any politician that supports control of arms is a tyrant and should be shot. Keep in mind, these guys were rebels. They were revolutionaries. Read the declaration of independance... it practically favors anarchy by saying that the people have the right to throw out their government whenever they want. And it isn't propaganda...these guys were serious.

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
-Thomas Jefferson

"A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government."
-George Washington

(in reply to meatcleaver)

Post #: 71

RE: Why no nation can invade America.... - 8/29/2007 2:01:33 AM

kiyari

Posts: 631
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

<snippage>

No one wantsd to invade America. Destroy it maybe but not occupy it.
If there is a danger to American democracy, the biggest danger comes from Americans and not foreigners.

The patriotism that says if you disagree with the state you are 'unAmerican',
an idea that people in other democratic countries find laughable.

You just can't be unFrench, unBritish, unGerman, unDutch.

Patriotic mob mind... scary.
As for the reality-check: wow... and how sad for we here in USA

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Black Water Dragon

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Post #: 72

RE: Why no nation can invade America.... - 8/29/2007 2:04:39 AM

allyC

Posts: 778
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: Las Vegas
Status: offline

quote:

one of the biggest causes of domestic child deaths is through firearm accidents.

Can you provide reliable statistics for this? (Not statistics from an anti-gun site - like any political/moral cause, they usually spin things real good)

Also, when calculating "child" deaths, most statiticians (especially those who are anti-gunners) consider a child anyone between the age of 0 and 19. I hardly consider a 17 year old gangster a child. The actual deaths of children under the age of 14 is MUCH much lower than most people ever realize and their cause of death isn't because they broke into their daddy's gun safe, disengaged the safety, racked one into the chamber and shot someone - it is because daddy left a loaded weapon without the safety engaged, the hammer back, and one in the chamber sitting on the coffee table (usually gangster daddy and the gun isn't legal). That same type of person would leave a bottle of bleach and rat poison on the floor near their child's crib too. That type of person is a moron and obviously isn't law abiding if he leaves illegal, loaded weapons lying around for his 3 year old. That isn't to say that all gun accidents are due to gang related or illegal firearms, but the reality of child (under the age of 14) deaths caused by safely kept, legal firearms is very, VERY low. People will probably never agree to disagree when it comes to firearms. I am glad that my owner taught me how to safely operate, clean, disassemble, reassemble, store, and handle firearms. I am also grateful that he provided professional classes and purchased personal firearms for me as well. I would rather be a law-abiding, knowledgable, safe, firearm owner than someone who hasn't a clue or a means of defending their home, self, and family. Well wishes, Cav's ally

(in reply to meatcleaver)

Post #: 73

RE: Why no nation can invade America.... - 8/29/2007 2:05:45 AM

allyC

Posts: 778
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: Las Vegas
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver Come on, any half educated person knows you are just spouting myth and propaganda here. The arms are to protect the establishment, not democracy or the people.

Which is myth and propaganda? The literal translation of the 2nd amendment or the fact that people are raped by cops? -Cav's ally

(in reply to meatcleaver)

Post #: 74

RE: Why no nation can invade America.... - 8/29/2007 2:06:39 AM

meatcleaver

Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Come on, any half educated person knows you are just spouting myth and propaganda here. The arms are to protect the establishment, not democracy or the people.

"A well-regulated militia, being necessary for the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."
-2nd Amendment, US Constitution.

America's founding fathers believed that guns and the public's ability to form a militia was necessary in order to preserve a free state. Right or wrong, this is what guys like Washington, Franklin, and Jefferson believed. In fact, Thomas Jefferson once stated that any politician that supports control of arms is a tyrant and should be shot. Keep in mind, these guys were rebels. They were revolutionaries. Read the declaration of independance... it practically favors anarchy by saying that the people have the right to throw out their government whenever they want. And it isn't propaganda...these guys were serious.

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
-Thomas Jefferson

"A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government."
-George Washington

Now I am laughing my head off. Just look at who gained the most from the war of independence. Yep, the founding fathers. They didn't give the ordinary colonist, the ordinary soldier that fought, the vote, they didn't free their slaves.

The function of domocracy in western societies is one of a pressure release valve. You will find out how good democracy really is when you try to relplace the establishment through democratic means.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 8/29/2007 2:07:17 AM >

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There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

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Post #: 75

RE: Why no nation can invade America.... - 8/29/2007 2:07:18 AM

kiyari

Posts: 631
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: kiyari

IMO we need another "Revolutionary" one

The first one wasn't revolutionary.
It was about the political establishment of the colonies seizing power for themselves.
The average colonist didn't get anything out of it.
Just look at who was in the political establishment then and who is now.
You will find many of the same families.

As I understand it, it was the 'landed' gentry behind it...
Nevertheless, many of the current ills in the USA [specifically, the 'Rule of Law']
are evils inherited from our Brit origins.

We need to 'lose' those.

Perhaps then, a purer [baser] 'Revolt'.

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Black Water Dragon

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Post #: 76

RE: Why no nation can invade America.... - 8/29/2007 2:20:00 AM

cyberdude611

Posts: 2596
Joined: 5/7/2006
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No government will ever voluntarily release power or control. Governments only step down when they are forced to, and usually only under threat of deadly force.

We are talking about totalitarianism.... not democracy. A tyrant is never going to release power. I am going to give Venezuela as an example of a democratic nation falling into tyranny. The only thing Hugo Chavez is doing in that nation is accumulating more power. And he is throwing his political critics and rivals into jail. The only way that dictator is ever going to step down is when someone shoots him in the head. It's that simple.

There are congressmen in the United States that has said they hope Chavez is assassinated. Americans fully believe that the only way to bring down a dictatorship or tyrant is by the use of lethal force. You have to stand up to him, confront him, and usually blow his head off. And this has been the foundation of American foreign policy for the last 200 years.

(in reply to meatcleaver)

Post #: 77

RE: Why no nation can invade America.... - 8/29/2007 2:20:03 AM

kiyari

Posts: 631
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: kiyari

Statistics on gun-control need to count the MURDER RATES (by what-ever method),
rather than KILLINGS-BY-FIREARMS... in order to draw a more meaningful comparison.

You need to look at firearm accidents.
I have a Swiss friend who refuses to have a gun in his house
because one of the biggest causes of domestic child deaths is through firearm accidents.

The countries with the most gun related deaths are the USA, Switzerland and Finland.
The countries with the most firearms in society.

It is a similar argument to the banning of smoking, guns are bad for your health.

http://www.ichv.org/Statistics.htm
A gun kept in the home is 22 times more likely to be used
in a homicide, suicide or unintentional shooting than to be used in self-defense.

Lies! Damned lies... and statistics! [paraphrased]

In Switzerland, child death statistics may feature firearms more than here, in that (correct me kindly if I am mistaken)
there every household is REQUIRED to be armed...
and so it is a matter of carelessness on the part of the Swiss parents vis a vis their requisite firearms.

Here in the (new, improved, Totaliarian USA)... has't deducted 'Death by Cop' from the statistics?

Here is a 'fun exercise' for ya....
compare 'death by automobile' to 'death by [non-cop] firearm'

Oh, and: "A gun kept in the home is 22 times more likely..."

Umm... as opposed to... what? A gun kept elsewhere?

_____________________________

Black Water Dragon

(in reply to meatcleaver)

Post #: 78

RE: Why no nation can invade America.... - 8/29/2007 2:22:40 AM

meatcleaver

Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kiyari

Nevertheless, many of the current ills in the USA [specifically, the 'Rule of Law']
are evils inherited from our Brit origins.

Now I want what is in your coffee! Without the rule of law, you will have no democracy whatsoever but anarchy, which might be what you want.

Inadequate as western democracy is and it is smoke and mirrors, it is better than running the gauntlet of uneducated rednecks with guns robbing, mugging and killing.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to kiyari)

Post #: 79

RE: Why no nation can invade America.... - 8/29/2007 2:27:19 AM

meatcleaver

Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kiyari

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: kiyari

Statistics on gun-control need to count the MURDER RATES (by what-ever method),
rather than KILLINGS-BY-FIREARMS... in order to draw a more meaningful comparison.

You need to look at firearm accidents.
I have a Swiss friend who refuses to have a gun in his house
because one of the biggest causes of domestic child deaths is through firearm accidents.

The countries with the most gun related deaths are the USA, Switzerland and Finland.
The countries with the most firearms in society.

It is a similar argument to the banning of smoking, guns are bad for your health.

http://www.ichv.org/Statistics.htm
A gun kept in the home is 22 times more likely to be used
in a homicide, suicide or unintentional shooting than to be used in self-defense.

Lies! Damned lies... and statistics! [paraphrased]

In Switzerland, child death statistics may feature firearms more than here, in that (correct me kindly if I am mistaken)
there every household is REQUIRED to be armed...
and so it is a matter of carelessness on the part of the Swiss parents vis a vis their requisite firearms.

Here in the (new, improved, Totaliarian USA)... has't deducted 'Death by Cop' from the statistics?

Here is a 'fun exercise' for ya....
compare 'death by automobile' to 'death by [non-cop] firearm'

Oh, and: "A gun kept in the home is 22 times more likely..."

Umm... as opposed to... what? A gun kept elsewhere?

Maybe the west should do the world a favour and ban cars on health grounds. They are a menace after all.

You can make love to your gun for all I care, if that makes you feel good, fine. But the idea it is to protect yourself is nonsense. If I was going to kill you with a gun, it would be from behind and when you are least expecting it.

Hmm rather like good old fashioned sex when a man didn't have to worry about the law. LOL

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 8/29/2007 2:28:48 AM >

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to kiyari)

Post #: 80

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