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Rover -> RE: Competition in the 'community' (8/30/2007 11:23:31 AM)
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ORIGINAL: Bobkgin
That is probably because I discuss matters of ethics far more than matters of kink.
Which explains why you have a long history of participating in religious oriented communities, where the continual discussion of religion is both expected and encouraged. That's audience appropriate. It's not appropriate as a constant barrage in other type communities, because it's neither expected or encouraged. BDSM oriented communities fall into this latter category. And before you complain that it's being intolerant of religion, consider that a constant barrage of anything... let's say flogging... in every thread would be equally unwelcome.
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My faith is a part of who I am. My ethics are bound up with what I believe, as my beliefs are bound up with my ethics.
I commend you for that. Most everyone has their own faith, beliefs and ethics. Yet, we do not find it appropriate to make them the central point of each of our posts as you do. At some point it becomes preaching and a sermon. At some point it becomes an imposition of your kink upon everyone else. And while we can argue exactly where that line may be, I do not think there's any dispute that it has long since been crossed.
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I was unaware that religious beliefs (and thus ethics for some of us) are "completely inappropriate" when I apply it to my experience. Nor was I aware that writing about reality as I see it was in some way remarkable.
You don't limit your beliefs to your experience, you apply it to everything. And while that may work for you, it doesn't work for the rest of us. It's akin to a flasher exposing himself to others because that's his kink, and forcing others to be nonconsensual participants in his scene.
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Doesn't everyone do this?
No Bob, everyone does not do this.
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Are you not attempting to apply your beliefs to my portion of the lifestyle?
Actually, I rather see it in the other direction. We know what your religous beliefs are. Share them when they are topic appropriate. But please, cease to beat us about the head and neck with them. I (we?) don't care to be a part of your religious scene.
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I have spoken of "historical BDSM values" as I learned them when I began in my craft. I've never been under the belief that everyone learned them. But to suggest they only existed in fiction and online websites is a myth, and not something I'd expect anyone with experience to suggest.
When you speak of historical BDSM values, you do not limit them to your own experience. If you did so, I would not complain in the least. I have asked you on numerous occasions to cite your historical references and you have not done so. You had every opportunity to explain that these "values" are your own, without any historical relevance to BDSM as a whole, and at each turn you have chosen not to do so.
Are the values you expressed mythical on an individual level? No, of course not. I embrace many of those values myself. But there is absolutely no substantiation of them as "historical". They're personal. And the portrayal of them as historical (as you do constantly) is most certainly the promulgation of a myth.
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After all, have you been by the side of -everyone- who learned about bdsm that you can make such a universal proclamation?
As I have stipulated, there's no issue with claiming they individual values. Claiming that they have an "historical BDSM' context requires some actual proof.
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That these concepts did not enter your life is yours to claim. To say they never entered anyone's life except through the routes you've mentioned is arrogance.
It's not arrogance, Bob. It's called documented history. Familiarize yourself with it.
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In another thread there are those who claim to have learned of BDSM from "The Story of O". Another mentioned the "Beauty" series. We have an entire forum based on Gor.
Seems to me what you dismiss as "overly romanticized erotic fiction" has had a huge impact on BDSM.
Bob, are we discussing impact or factual history? "The Story of O", the "Beauty" series, and the "Gor" books are all fictional novels, Bob. They're not real. They appeal to folks because they're romantic (and I say overly romantic) fantasies, in the same way that Harlequin Romance novels with pictures of Fabio on the cover are romantic fantasies. It does not serve you well to imply that they have any factual or historical value.
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Are all those who learned at least some of their values from fiction to be invalidated because some of their source material was fiction?
It depends upon what they're learning, Bob. If they're learning "history" or "facts" from those novels, then yes, it's invalid as they are just the fantastical musings of individual authors who never intended for them to be used in that way. There is a marked distinction between fact and fantasy.
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What you've done is what you told me not to do.
Which tells me that, in your mind, it is ok for anyone to continue doing what I'm doing.
I've not found anything "constructive" in your "dispassionate response".
Merely hypocrisy and whining that anyone with beliefs should speak about them.
<shrug>
Honestly, I didn't expect that you would learn a thing as you've not given me any reason to believe that you want to. And while you may have every "right" to continue preaching religion in a BDSM forum and make insupportable statements of "fact" and "history", I have every "right" to respond in kind to say that it's inappropriate, intolerant, nonconsensual and downright factually untrue.
I surmise that we can both live with that.
John
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