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Make You My Slave/Submissive - 8/30/2007 1:37:50 PM   
kyraofMists


Posts: 3292
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline 		I didn't want to hijack MadRabbit's thread with this question, so I am starting a new one.

Stephann made the comment that "It isn't her job to be my slave, I see it as my job to make her my slave."  I see others, both dominants and submissives, give the perception that they either want to make a person submit or be made to submit. 

I don't understand this concept and I would appreciate any clarification on what this means to others and how it plays out in their relationship.

Knight's Kyra

_____________________________

"Passion... it lies in all of us. Sleeping, waiting, and though unbidden, it will stir, open its jaws, and howl. It speaks to us, guides us... passion rules us all. And we obey..." ~Angelus
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RE: Make You My Slave/Submissive - 8/30/2007 1:43:49 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		Oh most people enjoy a bit of seduction, force, tug of war sort of stuff.  And it does take work on ALL sides to make a relationship fulfilling for all, so the essence of the master needing to be an active participant in the relationship is a good one.

But when it all comes down to the end- we all are who we are, and while you can make someone do or be something they aren't, at that point you're enjoying your kink for makeovers, not really building a lasting relationship with another person.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to kyraofMists)
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RE: Make You My Slave/Submissive - 8/30/2007 1:57:21 PM   
TreasureKY


Posts: 3032
Joined: 4/10/2007
From: Kentucky
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kyraofMists

Stephann made the comment that "It isn't her job to be my slave, I see it as my job to make her my slave."  I see others, both dominants and submissives, give the perception that they either want to make a person submit or be made to submit. 


I'm not sure I really understand what Stephann meant by "it isn't her job to be my slave...", but I do take the concepts of people either wanting to make a person submit or be made to submit to mean creating, building or "making" the relationship ideally suited for them to fully realize who they identify themselves to be.

(in reply to kyraofMists)
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RE: Make You My Slave/Submissive - 8/30/2007 1:58:33 PM   
toservez


Posts: 1733
Joined: 9/7/2006
From: All over now in Minnesota
Status: offline 		I agree with LA.

Part of being a slave is being made to feel like a slave and in fact I often comment on this being a weakness with many dominants that often treat slaves as an end product and not a forever work in process when dealing with feelings and atmosphere.

Basic slave traits are in us but truly being and living a slave life is still not “natural” and to me when people refer to being made into they are talking about the atmosphere and manifestations that make us feel like slave and not about the individual aspects, duties and attitude.


_____________________________

I am sorry I do not fit Webster's defintion of a slave but thankfully my Master is not Webster.

"Anything that contradicts experience and logic should be abandoned." - H.H. The 14th Dalai Lama

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
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RE: Make You My Slave/Submissive - 8/30/2007 2:02:13 PM   
Carrianna


Posts: 273
Joined: 11/20/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross
But when it all comes down to the end- we all are who we are, and while you can make someone do or be something they aren't, at that point you're enjoying your kink for makeovers, not really building a lasting relationship with another person.


Brilliantly said! 

_____________________________

Selfishness must always be forgiven you know, because there is no hope of a cure. "Mansfield Park" J.Austen

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RE: Make You My Slave/Submissive - 8/30/2007 2:02:22 PM   
AquaticSub


Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline 		~Fast Reply~

I'm not sure if I'm choosing my words correctly, but I shall try to explain what this means to me.

I feel that if a man is not dominant towards me, there is nothing to submit to. I can't just submit to nothing. He has to do something, have some, perhaps undefinable, quality that inspires me to submit to him and put his desires over my own. I can only do so much on my own, he has to meet me partway as well.

Not sure how helpful this was but I'll keep thinking about it. Maybe I can express it better after some time.

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

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RE: Make You My Slave/Submissive - 8/30/2007 2:15:03 PM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline 		Kyra, I saw that also and had a similar......."what?" reaction.

I was feeling kind of snarky and decided it was not the best time for me to post. I had to tell myself I was misunderstanding the intent of his words and leave it at that.

For ME, it is a mutual thing. Yes I understand the whole romantic, take her and make her yours, concept of this......BUT....she cannot be taken unless she is willing to give herself and her submission. Even the domliest of dominants cannot just go pick a random submissive or slave, grab them by the hair and make them theirs. (although that might be rather entertaining to watch...)

I liken it to a dance. Yes, I know that sounds rather gooey romantic icky, and if that bothers a person then substitute chess instead of dance. Or......call it fishing if you want. The fisherperson (either dominant or the slave/submissive ) tosses the bait or lure out there and the fish (whichever is not the person doing the fishing ) decides wether or not to bite. Now before the fisherperson gets the fish into their skillet there are still quite a few things that can go wrong, caused by either the fish or the person doing the fishing.

Now that is a very simplistic analogy so I choose the dancing one myself. Still, it takes both parties to get to the final step. One may be doing the leading but, someone still has to choose to follow.

< Message edited by LaTigresse -- 8/30/2007 2:16:41 PM >

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

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RE: Make You My Slave/Submissive - 8/30/2007 2:15:52 PM   
MadRabbit


Posts: 3460
Joined: 8/9/2006
Status: offline 		In a different perspective, I would take the words to mean more along the lines of "inspiration".

If someone has the ethical values and character that the slave finds value in, then obedience isnt much of an issue since respect is present.

If someone doesnt have the ethical values and character that the slave finds value in, then obedience is going to be quite an issue since little respect is present.

So...my personal perception of "I have to make someone my slave" is that "I have to strive to be a person that I trust and respect and find a slave who is willing to trust and respect that person".

Edited to Add : (And then I can give myself a little pat on the back and say "Look how I made this person my slave by simply being the awesome person that I am" )

Edited Again to Add : I also wanted to mention that the values that bring respect and trust so its irrelevant to really try and name any as a standard. A lot of people enjoy my company, but I am sure quite a few think I am ass. I'm Sure Kyra has deep respect and trust for KoM, but quite a few people have differing opinions. My respect is on the descent for our new local Messiah, but I am sure he has plenty of neophytes throwing flowers in his wake.

< Message edited by MadRabbit -- 8/30/2007 2:27:07 PM >

_____________________________

Advice for New Dominants
The Unpolitically Correct Lifestyle Definitions

Obama is NOT the Messiah! He's just a VERY NAUGHTY BOY

(in reply to kyraofMists)
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RE: Make You My Slave/Submissive - 8/30/2007 2:26:04 PM   
kyraofMists


Posts: 3292
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

Kyra, I saw that also and had a similar......."what?" reaction.

I was feeling kind of snarky and decided it was not the best time for me to post. I had to tell myself I was misunderstanding the intent of his words and leave it at that.


There must have been something in the air that day.  I had to turn off the boards before I got myself in trouble that day  *g*

quote:

I liken it to a dance. Yes, I know that sounds rather gooey romantic icky, and if that bothers a person then substitute chess instead of dance. Or......call it fishing if you want. The fisherperson (either dominant or the slave/submissive ) tosses the bait or lure out there and the fish (whichever is not the person doing the fishing ) decides wether or not to bite. Now before the fisherperson gets the fish into their skillet there are still quite a few things that can go wrong, caused by either the fish or the person doing the fishing.

Now that is a very simplistic analogy so I choose the dancing one myself. Still, it takes both parties to get to the final step. One may be doing the leading but, someone still has to choose to follow.


Now dancing can be hot and erotic, nothing icky about that  *g*

My Lord's analogy is that he is the captain of the ship; the ship is our relationship and Alandra and I are along for the ride (sometimes I think we are swabbing the deck though).  He decides where the ship is going to go and if at anytime Alandra and I decide we don't want to go there, well we can always get off.  Someone screaming "Man overboard!!" always comes to mind at this part of the analogy...

So, your analogy makes perfect sense to me.

Knight's Kyra

_____________________________

"Passion... it lies in all of us. Sleeping, waiting, and though unbidden, it will stir, open its jaws, and howl. It speaks to us, guides us... passion rules us all. And we obey..." ~Angelus

(in reply to LaTigresse)
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RE: Make You My Slave/Submissive - 8/30/2007 2:31:42 PM   
kyraofMists


Posts: 3292
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub
I feel that if a man is not dominant towards me, there is nothing to submit to. I can't just submit to nothing. He has to do something, have some, perhaps undefinable, quality that inspires me to submit to him and put his desires over my own. I can only do so much on my own, he has to meet me partway as well.


I get the whole being inspired idea.  Who he is inspired me to want to make the choice to be his slave.  For me that sentence does not mean the same as "he makes me submit".  But, I may just be looking at it from a different perspective.

Not sure if you said what you wanted to, but I understood what you said and look foward to any further musings.

Knight's Kyra

_____________________________

"Passion... it lies in all of us. Sleeping, waiting, and though unbidden, it will stir, open its jaws, and howl. It speaks to us, guides us... passion rules us all. And we obey..." ~Angelus

(in reply to AquaticSub)
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RE: Make You My Slave/Submissive - 8/30/2007 2:35:05 PM   
kyraofMists


Posts: 3292
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit
I'm Sure Kyra has deep respect and trust for KoM, but quite a few people have differing opinions.


Aawww.. now you could have just said that "quite a few people may thing he is an ass".  He will be the first to tell you that he can be an asshole at times.

Thank you for your thoughts.  I will have to think about the inspiration idea and get my brain to twist around and find that perspective.

Knight's Kyra

_____________________________

"Passion... it lies in all of us. Sleeping, waiting, and though unbidden, it will stir, open its jaws, and howl. It speaks to us, guides us... passion rules us all. And we obey..." ~Angelus

(in reply to MadRabbit)
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RE: Make You My Slave/Submissive - 8/30/2007 2:38:05 PM   
krikket


Posts: 1183
Joined: 11/17/2004
From: Washington, DC Metro Area
Status: offline 		This is pretty much the way i also feel.  i can't count the times i've been told that i don't "act" submissive.  At first it confused and kinda hurt, but i've learned over time that i need someone special to submit to, or it just doesn't feel right.  my response now is that they don't "seem" dominant, and that, for me, it's not an act..it just is.  My submissive nature only comes out when i feel safe, and that doesn't happen all that often.

warmly,
jimini

quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

~Fast Reply~

I'm not sure if I'm choosing my words correctly, but I shall try to explain what this means to me.

I feel that if a man is not dominant towards me, there is nothing to submit to. I can't just submit to nothing. He has to do something, have some, perhaps undefinable, quality that inspires me to submit to him and put his desires over my own. I can only do so much on my own, he has to meet me partway as well.

Not sure how helpful this was but I'll keep thinking about it. Maybe I can express it better after some time.


_____________________________

"And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to bloom."

by A. Nin



When your heart speaks take good notes.





(in reply to AquaticSub)
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RE: Make You My Slave/Submissive - 8/30/2007 2:38:12 PM   
MadRabbit


Posts: 3460
Joined: 8/9/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kyraofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit
I'm Sure Kyra has deep respect and trust for KoM, but quite a few people have differing opinions.


Aawww.. now you could have just said that "quite a few people may thing he is an ass".  He will be the first to tell you that he can be an asshole at times.

Thank you for your thoughts.  I will have to think about the inspiration idea and get my brain to twist around and find that perspective.

Knight's Kyra


I wont stretch your brain too much. I personally think the quote comment that is the subject in this thread was made in the light of a little too much arrogance.

On another note, I guess thats why we get along so well. I can be quite an asshole. Its fun.

_____________________________

Advice for New Dominants
The Unpolitically Correct Lifestyle Definitions

Obama is NOT the Messiah! He's just a VERY NAUGHTY BOY

(in reply to kyraofMists)
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RE: Make You My Slave/Submissive - 8/30/2007 2:44:34 PM   
kyraofMists


Posts: 3292
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross
Oh most people enjoy a bit of seduction, force, tug of war sort of stuff.  And it does take work on ALL sides to make a relationship fulfilling for all, so the essence of the master needing to be an active participant in the relationship is a good one.


Our seduction and force is generally reserved for play and sex but I can understand the desire for actively exercising authority.  There are times that I want this and will ask for it.  I think our relationship overall has a healthy (for us) blend of active/passive exercising of his authority and active/passive submission.

quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY
I do take the concepts of people either wanting to make a person submit or be made to submit to mean creating, building or "making" the relationship ideally suited for them to fully realize who they identify themselves to be.


Treasure, thank you for this perspective.  The relationship comes first for us, so I can definitely appreciate this idea. 

quote:

ORIGINAL: toservez
to me when people refer to being made into they are talking about the atmosphere and manifestations that make us feel like slave and not about the individual aspects, duties and attitude.


toservez, I can appreciate this; there are certain things that happen within our relationship that make me feel the emotions that I associate with submission or slavery.  I find that mostly it is my own mindset and I need no outside influence from him, but on occasion he will do something that results in me feeling those emotions.

Thank you for all the thoughts.  Posts were only snipped for brevity.

Knight's Kyra

_____________________________

"Passion... it lies in all of us. Sleeping, waiting, and though unbidden, it will stir, open its jaws, and howl. It speaks to us, guides us... passion rules us all. And we obey..." ~Angelus

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
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RE: Make You My Slave/Submissive - 8/30/2007 3:05:13 PM   
wittman40


Posts: 29
Joined: 8/4/2007
Status: offline 		Hmm, personally, for me, I've always seen it as a situation where the sub's recognition of my force of personality, will and whatever the X factor inside of me that screams "Dom" to subs but is unheard by vanillas makes her WANT to submit to me.

Obviously I'm dominant by nature and personality and so I want to dominate but, for me, the most erotic thing is a sub recognising, in me, the sort of dominance to which she wishes to submit and then submitting to that. Sometimes it can be fun to "take" someone etc but really, for me, I find it most exciting to have a sub recognise my dominance and choose to submit to that as opposed to just being verbally or physically beaten into submission.  I think that's because I think it is easy to dominate someone if you unleash the whole arsenal but its a lot more difficult and rewarding if they choose to submit to what they see inside of you.

I'd be REALLY interested in what subs here make of my viewpoint above. Is that something that they recognise and enjoy or is my drive just that, my drive ;).

(in reply to kyraofMists)
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RE: Make You My Slave/Submissive - 8/30/2007 3:18:11 PM   
toservez


Posts: 1733
Joined: 9/7/2006
From: All over now in Minnesota
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: wittman40

Hmm, personally, for me, I've always seen it as a situation where the sub's recognition of my force of personality, will and whatever the X factor inside of me that screams "Dom" to subs but is unheard by vanillas makes her WANT to submit to me.

Obviously I'm dominant by nature and personality and so I want to dominate but, for me, the most erotic thing is a sub recognising, in me, the sort of dominance to which she wishes to submit and then submitting to that. Sometimes it can be fun to "take" someone etc but really, for me, I find it most exciting to have a sub recognise my dominance and choose to submit to that as opposed to just being verbally or physically beaten into submission.  I think that's because I think it is easy to dominate someone if you unleash the whole arsenal but its a lot more difficult and rewarding if they choose to submit to what they see inside of you.

I'd be REALLY interested in what subs here make of my viewpoint above. Is that something that they recognise and enjoy or is my drive just that, my drive ;).


Relationships take both. Just to submit to a person because they make us feel submissive because of there dominance is common and natural when in a relationship but if you and I were just talking to each other your dominance “vibe” would be attractive to me if it was genuinely natural but just acting that way could never get me to my knees.

In a relationship too much of wanting a submissive to submit to your natural dominance will more often then not have her leaving you and giving you the reason of neglect. Submissive and dominance are personality traits but living a power exchange relationship is not personality trait driven. Submissives, yes even slaves, are in the relationship to get something out of it and that requires effort on the dominants part. The kink is not just about physical pleasure on our end it is also very much about physically feeling the power exchange we want and this pleases us mentally greatly.

That is the made part comes in. We can submit to anybody. submitting and to the level we submit to that certain someone is that made feeling.


_____________________________

I am sorry I do not fit Webster's defintion of a slave but thankfully my Master is not Webster.

"Anything that contradicts experience and logic should be abandoned." - H.H. The 14th Dalai Lama

(in reply to wittman40)
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RE: Make You My Slave/Submissive - 8/30/2007 3:28:55 PM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

On another note, I guess thats why we get along so well. I can be quite an asshole. Its fun.


aaaaawwwwww yes grasshopper... and in time you will be assholes of assholes!

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to MadRabbit)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: Make You My Slave/Submissive - 8/30/2007 3:29:22 PM   
wittman40


Posts: 29
Joined: 8/4/2007
Status: offline 		toservez,

Aye, good points. Obviously in a relationship everyone has to put work in. What does that mean? Well, just like in vanilla relationships if you care for someone then you have to take their desires and needs into account. I've always been of the opinion that in every interaction you have to keep both peoples' needs in mind and just because we're into D/S doesn't mean EVERY interaction needs to be D/Sy. Sometimes I'm wrecked and want to just take it easy and chill, sometimes in past relationship my sub would have had a hard day and just want to talk about it, cuddle up and watch a movie and then other days they might come to me with a paddle or cane and ask for a caning ;) ... or just mess up badly and require corrective punishment... or I might just want to be a little sadistic for no better reason than that I felt like it that day ;).


Basically though my thoughts in my initial post were only about the INITIAL stages of a relationship where the D/S dynamic is first getting established. I prefer to have someone choose to submit rather than be forced to submit at that stage. Obviously though once in a relationship work has to be put in by both sides and both sides need to bear in mind the needs and moods of their partner if it is to be fulfilling for both ( which should, IMO, be the goal of any relationship as a Dom who is only in it for their own gratification is actually just being a thoughtless jerk). 

(in reply to toservez)
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RE: Make You My Slave/Submissive - 8/30/2007 3:31:09 PM   
xoxi


Posts: 1066
Status: offline 		A man making me his slave is like a man making me fall in love with him.  I agree with the person who said the best word would be 'inspire' rather than 'make'...it's something hard to explain, but I know that in my past relationships I didn't just wake up one day and say "I want to submit to someone, the first guy who comes along is going to get lucky," but rather it was something that was in me in its potential form, but it takes someone else bringing it out to actualize the potential.

That's just for me though, I'm someone who can't submit outside of a relationship because it feels like meaningless going through the motions type stuff.  So it's a process...and that process could be labeled 'making you mine.'

(in reply to toservez)
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RE: Make You My Slave/Submissive - 8/30/2007 3:33:35 PM   
Twicehappy2x


Posts: 1096
Joined: 3/27/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

For ME, it is a mutual thing. Yes I understand the whole romantic, take her and make her yours, concept of this......BUT....she cannot be taken unless she is willing to give herself and her submission. Even the domliest of dominants cannot just go pick a random submissive or slave, grab them by the hair and make them theirs.

One may be doing the leading but, someone still has to choose to follow.


Exactly Beautiful, for me it is the same thing, mutual. He cannot lead if i do not follow and i cannot follow if he does not lead.
 
Yes, i want to be taken, but only by the one i choose.
 
Too often you see the dominant thinking that simply because they are dominant the submissive should recognize this and respond. Or that because they are submissive they can be made to submit if that dominant so choses.
 
Though why anybody would want or insist on having something not freely given i do not understand.

_____________________________

The human heart is not a finite container but an ever expanding universe with all the stars contained there in.

(in reply to LaTigresse)
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