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Blood: subdermal vs external flow - 9/1/2007 1:09:45 PM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline 		I read all these profiles/posts which speak on the subject of the four 'main' limits as if they are universal to all. Obviously, since a lot of people engage in both blood play and scat play, those two, at least are not universal. Since I don't care to wade through 20 pages of posters saying 'ewwwww' by discussing scat (at least not right now ), I'm going to talk about the hard 'blood' limit that so many seem to place on their limits list.

The purpose of this post is to challenge a belief I have regarding a stated limit on blood and whether it changes or confirms what I already think on the subject of blood play.

Okay, on to the meat course.

My thoughts: manipulating blood so that it causes a bruise is still a subdermal form of blood play, so perhaps someone can enlighten me on how one can be fine with bruises but claim to have a limit on blood? The fact that the blood fails to leave the dermal layer and flow doesn't seem to change the fact that you are still bringing blood to the surface and, to me, it doesn't make sense to say you have a hard limit against blood play if you condone and engage in that activity.

I don't think the motivation matters in this particular instance either as a caning may be the cause of the effect, but the effect still exists. In other words, you maybe be caning someone as the main activity, but the bruising is a by-product of the caning and a secondary activity that, in my eyes, can't be denied it's true existance.You've manipulated blood on a subdermal level, broken vessels etc and made someone or have been made to 'bleed' internally, so.. what's the difference? Cutting causes blood to flow externally, but it does, eventually clot (just like it does under the skin) and causes a scab rather than a bruise.

I'm in a box here. I don't mind the box, but I'd like to see argument so I can either confirm my belief or change my belief that there are a lot less 'limits' to blood play than meets the eye. So, for those with a hard limit against blood who conjoin that with no limit on bruising, how do you balance the two beliefs: blood is bad, bruise is good?

Oh, and I understand, completely, that many people have a limit against any marks at all, including bruising, so this post doesn't apply to you folks. :)

Celeste

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."

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RE: Blood: subdermal vs external flow - 9/1/2007 1:14:42 PM   
MisPandora


Posts: 2911
Joined: 4/7/2004
From: Philadelphia, PA
Status: offline 		I've interpreted "blood" from folks who say that's a limit to mean broken skin and bloodletting (in whatever form.)  If I care to explore further to understand that person's interpretation of what blood means, I ask for clarification.  Most folks who have a limit of "blood" stay far away from me who does needles, scalpels and branding in addition to the canes and other impact play that might bring about bruising.

Interesting aside to this is that I've come across a slew of individuals listing "knife play" as a limit because they believe knives are only used to extract blood (or other parts) from someone in the context of an SM scene.

_____________________________

Pandora
Ms World Leather 2004
Ms Philadelphia Leather 2004

"Simply put, if you want a real femdom to love you, give her reasons to love you." Gloria Brame

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RE: Blood: subdermal vs external flow - 9/1/2007 1:15:48 PM   
chellekitty


Posts: 3923
Joined: 3/27/2005
Status: offline 		i might not be the best first response but bruises are good and blood is good...lol...i love bleeding in a scene and it is hell to find someone who will make me bleed ...wait...let me amend that...in a safe way...not into the death and dismemberment scenes...only so many times you can do those....but whipping to blood and cutting are two of my all time favorite bdsm activities...yet nearly impossible to find people to do them...i don't have HIV or HepC, been tested for both, haven't been potentially exposed to either since last test...but thats not even the issue i run into most often, its the psychological, from the Top..."I could actually harm you" issue that they can't get past...any helpful hints?

chelle

edited to add: oh darn i didn't press send fast enough


< Message edited by chellekitty -- 9/1/2007 1:16:38 PM >

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RE: Blood: subdermal vs external flow - 9/1/2007 1:22:20 PM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline 		I think it all comes down to the dreaded word:  "Definitions." 

I won't try to speak for everybody, but it appears I'm about to, actually, lol.  I think most people, when considering "blood play," are talking about external blood.  They don't want to actually see blood flowing, in its liquid form.  At least not in large quantities (ie; lacerations are ok, but let's not make the stuff drip or pour, all right?).  Bruising is manipulating blood, yes, but it's keeping it inside the body, all nicely protected and unviewable by a layer or two or three of skin (depending on how much was whipped off, lol).  It feels safer that way, I think.  It's less traumatic looking.  People tend to fear blood (there I go making generalizations again) - when they get a cut, their faces scrunch up and they exclaim an "Oh shit!" or something similar and grab a bandage.  I dare say it's the minority who exclaims "AWESOME!!" and sits there watching their blood pour out.  

But I think the flow of blood tends to elicit an instinctive fight or flight response - a warning of danger.  We learn this from childhood, when we get a cut and our mothers come rushing to our aid to help us...

That's been my take on it.  But now you have gone and messed up my thinking (again), lol.  Mr. Wonderful is gonna have a chat with you soon if you keep this up, lol. 


< Message edited by ownedgirlie -- 9/1/2007 1:24:42 PM >

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RE: Blood: subdermal vs external flow - 9/1/2007 1:27:46 PM   
SmokingGun82


Posts: 575
Joined: 6/19/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

I read all these profiles/posts which speak on the subject of the four 'main' limits as if they are universal to all. Obviously, since a lot of people engage in both blood play and scat play, those two, at least are not universal. 


I have to agree. Scat's something that's not for me, but blood play can be extremely hot.

There's a big difference between bruising and blood play, to me, at least. There's a pretty low chance of catching anything from bruising someone, while anything that externalizes blood has a much higher transmission possibility. That's why I'm perfectly willing to flog/spank/etcetera someone early in the relationship, but I prefer to wait a while before needles/etcetera come into play.

I think Pandora hit the nail on the head with "blood" as a limit meaning anytime the skin is broken. That's great for some folks, it doesn't work for me.

Just an aside, though... it's hard to find anything that's truly universal, in this or any other community.


_____________________________

It frightens me, the awful truth of how sweet life can be.
- Bob Dylan

Proper capitalization is the difference between "I had to help my Uncle Jack off a horse" and "I had to help my uncle jack off a horse."

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RE: Blood: subdermal vs external flow - 9/1/2007 1:51:51 PM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SmokingGun82

There's a big difference between bruising and blood play, to me, at least. There's a pretty low chance of catching anything from bruising someone, while anything that externalizes blood has a much higher transmission possibility. That's why I'm perfectly willing to flog/spank/etcetera someone early in the relationship, but I prefer to wait a while before needles/etcetera come into play.



This is the argument that Himself used and I did give it consideration but had to discard it because there is about as much chance of catching something from cum as there is from blood and, with exceptions of course, I don't believe the majority list cumming as a limit. ::chuckles:: I could be wrong about that though.

What I'm gathering so far is that subdermal bleeding isn't seen as blood play because it doesn't leave the epidermal layer as fresh and flowing. Is that just semantics though? Isn't bleeding still bleeding whether internal or external in nature? Is it disingenious to say one has a hard limit against 'blood' if, in fact, their hard limit is really against flowing blood, say from a knife or some other sharpie and internal bleeding, in the form of bruises are okay by them?

Of course, I believe in communication and when someone tells me they have a hard limit against blood play, I do ask them if that includes bruising.  Nine times out of ten, they do mean exactly what Pandora brought up in her post and I've noted that on several occasions, those to whom I've spoken have changed their profiles to reflect their actual limits (knives, needles, etc) rather than putting everything under a single category of blood as a hard limit.

But, yanno, I do like to fuck with people.

Owned, wait till I start that scat limit thread. Mr. Wonderful is gonna call Himself and request me to be beaten half to death and then never allowed to post to the boards again! ::laughs::

Chelle, I'm right with you. I have an abiding respect and deep appreciation for all the red stuff, internal and external in nature. If a Top is fearful of causing harm by bringing your blood outside of your body, my only advice is to suggest that moderation would be a key element in maximizing your safety. Blood is one of those lovely gifts of life which does, eventually, replenish as long as not to much is lost. The American Red Cross doesn't have a problem with taking a bit for donations and I don't believe I've ever been bled so much that it would even make a decent contribution, on any given occasion, to that cause.

Celeste

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


(in reply to SmokingGun82)
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RE: Blood: subdermal vs external flow - 9/1/2007 2:05:01 PM   
SmokingGun82


Posts: 575
Joined: 6/19/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble


This is the argument that Himself used and I did give it consideration but had to discard it because there is about as much chance of catching something from cum as there is from blood and, with exceptions of course, I don't believe the majority list cumming as a limit. ::chuckles:: I could be wrong about that though.



Well, I'd be willing to be bleeding/bled on during a scene, depending on the situation, but I'm not willing to be come on...

But that could just be because I'm a straight guy.

If you wanted to be completely selfish about it, though, the chance a guy catches anything by coming on someone are non-existent, while if you cut someone/break the skin in some other way there's some chance.


_____________________________

It frightens me, the awful truth of how sweet life can be.
- Bob Dylan

Proper capitalization is the difference between "I had to help my Uncle Jack off a horse" and "I had to help my uncle jack off a horse."

(in reply to BitaTruble)
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RE: Blood: subdermal vs external flow - 9/1/2007 2:14:04 PM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		Blood as well as some other body fluids have been seen as "Life Force" in cultures for ages. Cutting someone lets that life force outside of their body, bruising does not.
This is why you have "Blood sacrifices" in many old cultures.



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RE: Blood: subdermal vs external flow - 9/1/2007 2:15:21 PM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

Owned, wait till I start that scat limit thread. Mr. Wonderful is gonna call Himself and request me to be beaten half to death and then never allowed to post to the boards again! ::laughs::


LMAO oh hush now!!  You'd like the beating part but hmmm....you may be onto something about posting restrictions....heh.

I've posted to enough scat threads to learn that I gain nothing from all the ewwws, and grosssss's and accusations of what an abuser Mr. Wonderful is, thank you very much!  So you go have your fun, honey, and I'll call Mr. Wonderful with Himself's phone number.....heheheheh.....

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RE: Blood: subdermal vs external flow - 9/1/2007 2:16:31 PM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

Blood as well as some other body fluids have been seen as "Life Force" in cultures for ages. Cutting someone lets that life force outside of their body, bruising does not.
This is why you have "Blood sacrifices" in many old cultures.



Awesome, wonderful point!  And likely why it has such a profound effect.  Thank you for adding this!!

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RE: Blood: subdermal vs external flow - 9/1/2007 2:18:09 PM   
callistaIn


Posts: 62
Status: offline 		Celeste

if you take it in the opposite direction ( which would be me lol )

I like blood to flow;  yet I dislike the sight of bruises

How's that for backwards lol

callie

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RE: Blood: subdermal vs external flow - 9/1/2007 2:42:51 PM   
AquaticSub


Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

I don't think the motivation matters in this particular instance either as a caning may be the cause of the effect, but the effect still exists. In other words, you maybe be caning someone as the main activity, but the bruising is a by-product of the caning and a secondary activity that, in my eyes, can't be denied it's true existance.You've manipulated blood on a subdermal level, broken vessels etc and made someone or have been made to 'bleed' internally, so.. what's the difference? Cutting causes blood to flow externally, but it does, eventually clot (just like it does under the skin) and causes a scab rather than a bruise.


While I'm one of the people this doesn't apply to, it may have to do with the act of cutting and piercing another's flesh. It also have to do with the risk of screwing up and nicking an artery.

It's just a guess though.

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

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RE: Blood: subdermal vs external flow - 9/1/2007 2:53:19 PM   
SunnyTawse


Posts: 151
Joined: 11/17/2004
Status: offline 		Well, of course, in opening the skin to allow blood flow outside the body, you also open up the possibility for pathogens to enter the body.

Good safety procedures can reduce the chances of that, but infection occurs even in hospitals and clinics.

As a Dominant, my objection to blood play is twofold, that I expose myself to blood-borne pathogens and I increase the danger of bleeding and infection for my submissive.

Still, danger is exciting. I rarely do it, but it's a very intimate place to go that I don't rule out completely.

Sunny Tawse
Sadien Domina
Archon of Rings
http://AthenorLodge.com

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RE: Blood: subdermal vs external flow - 9/1/2007 3:05:29 PM   
wittman40


Posts: 29
Joined: 8/4/2007
Status: offline 		Archer, as usual has made a very good point. Bloodletting has been a taboo throughout most of history as once the skin was breached the body was open to significant infection which we, in the day of readily available antibiotics, forget could often have been a death sentence.

Personally I don't see any major problem with my sub bleeding from a caning etc but making someone bleed ( needle play, knife play etc ) isn't specifically a turn-on for me. I think the dichotomy of comfort and indifference is probably due to the fact that through my job I've had a lot of exposure to people bleeding out, needles, knives etc etc.

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RE: Blood: subdermal vs external flow - 9/1/2007 3:11:03 PM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

Blood as well as some other body fluids have been seen as "Life Force" in cultures for ages. Cutting someone lets that life force outside of their body, bruising does not.
This is why you have "Blood sacrifices" in many old cultures.





Himself and I had that conversation this very morning and I used almost that exact same wording as he had me recount (um, during a particular activity) what I loved so much about blood. lol Thank you for bringing this up. I was going to myself, but thought my opening post had already gone on too long. :)

Now that it has been brought up, I'll ask others to expand on it as well, if they don't mind. The blood brought up internally is absorbed back into the body. Perhaps this makes it less precious than the blood which is allowed to escape? We still retain ownership of the blood which lies within. The blood with flows from fresh wounds has gone from us and 'that' particular blood won't ever return. Does the idea of 'loss' effect the process you go through when determining whether or not to limit blood play activities or is strictly the omg/ick/no fucking way etc etc factor?

(Not that I'm assuming anyone gave it two seconds worth of thought.. but yanno, don't ask .. don't know, right?)

Celeste

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


(in reply to Archer)
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RE: Blood: subdermal vs external flow - 9/1/2007 3:16:29 PM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		That is exactly where I was hoping the conversation would go. It is the attraction for me, the fact that they have shed this blood FOR ME. They don't get it back, I use it and then let it go to waste after I am through. I haven't always enjoyed bloodplay, it was on my list of limits mostly due to lack of learning up to that point. Now that I have added the skill sets, I play with blood and enjoy it.

I enjoy the spiritual aspects of the life force imagery, as well.


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RE: Blood: subdermal vs external flow - 9/1/2007 3:19:59 PM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		As to the infection chances Personally I think, they are less than at the hospital since hospitals are a collection of germs concentrated into one location. That isn;'t to say they are none, just that the hospital isn't exactly a comparison I would find convincing.


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RE: Blood: subdermal vs external flow - 9/1/2007 3:20:26 PM   
wittman40


Posts: 29
Joined: 8/4/2007
Status: offline 		As an aside.... Do you embody seminal play with the same mythos? I speak here of the old Greek ( and Amazonian etc ) beliefs re: seminal fluid passing on wisdom, life force etc...

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RE: Blood: subdermal vs external flow - 9/1/2007 3:21:26 PM   
callistaIn


Posts: 62
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

That is exactly where I was hoping the conversation would go. It is the attraction for me, the fact that they have shed this blood FOR ME. They don't get it back, I use it and then let it go to waste after I am through. I haven't always enjoyed bloodplay, it was on my list of limits mostly due to lack of learning up to that point. Now that I have added the skill sets, I play with blood and enjoy it.

I enjoy the spiritual aspects of the life force imagery, as well.



Ok, sorry for the hijack but...DAYUM, that is just HAWT

.....back on track....

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RE: Blood: subdermal vs external flow - 9/1/2007 3:28:21 PM   
SunnyTawse


Posts: 151
Joined: 11/17/2004
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This is the argument that Himself used and I did give it consideration but had to discard it because there is about as much chance of catching something from cum as there is from blood and, with exceptions of course, I don't believe the majority list cumming as a limit. ::chuckles:: I could be wrong about that though.


Again, looking at this from a Dom's perspective, I don't allow submissives to cum on me, so that's not a problem.

I do appreciate Archer's point about the association with our life force and it's that imagry that appeals to me when I think about the danger involved.

Sunny Tawse
Sadien Domina

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