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Arguments and misunderstandings - 9/2/2007 12:58:51 PM   
TexasMaam


Posts: 1467
Joined: 6/22/2005
Status: offline 		Last week I weathered a RARE argument with My devoted sub male.

End of month close is always a lengthy process on the last business day of the month, and it almost always requires that I work late on that day.  It varies, though, sometimes it's only an hour late, sometimes I'm there until Midnight.

manthing stopped by to see me and take me to dinner that evening, planning his route across Texas through My city just to make the time to spend together over dinner.  Forgetting that it was "EOM", end of month close, he planned the stopover and hoped I'd be out fairly early.

He called late that afternoon, we discussed it, and our department manager's plans were to be out of the office by 5:30 no later than 6pm ` since the three day weekend was upon us. 

As luck would have it, once manthing was patiently waiting in the parking lot, our closing process went on much longer than expected and I was delayed again, and again, and again, each time thinking I'd be out the door in only a few minutes....and each time another delay cropped up, keeping Me at my desk awhile longer.

Finally, feeling taken for granted and much exasperated that I hadn't taken the time to call and let him know exactly what time I'd be able to get away, manthing left in a bit of a huff.

When I finally got out the door and was able to call, he was down the road an hour or so.

In the conversations that followed, he politely, but firmly expressed his disappointment in My seemingly callous disregard for his efforts and his time.  I, in turn, apologized profusely for the fact that it had taken Me so much longer to get away than I had anticipated.

We were at an impasse, with manthing feeling slighted and with Me feeling put out that he wouldn't accept my apology and move on.

Finally, after several pas de deux over whether he'd make the drive back or not to enjoy dinner together, I simply told him to come back.

In complete obedience he did so.  We had a lovely dinner, I held him close and told him I'd never deliberately take him for granted or abuse his devotion by just leaving him to sit and wait for hours (unless it was a test, which I have been known to do on occasion - in this instance it was just an unhappy circumstance). 

I asked manthing to understand that My job would demand my time and attention and would, on occasion, even prevent my calling him until certain processes and reports were finished.  I gave him the discrection to determine, next time, whether he wanted to continue to wait or consider himself free to continue on home, telling him that I would understand that he might not always be able to wait on My schedule.

We sort of agreed to disagree, the argument ended, ruffled feathers were soothed and we managed to get over the hump.

I'm just curious - how do you, whether Domme or sub, handle a real, justifiable argument over a misunderstanding? 

I've thought about My subs behavior throughout the tense evening and I'm so proud of the way he communicated to Me and then came back when I asked him to.

What would you do in a similar situation?  Dommes: would you command that the sub be expected to wait indefinitely and just disregard his sentiments?  subs: would you wait without complaint, feel slighted but not express those feelings?  I've been thinking that I should have just told him I expect him to accept My schedule fluctuations but he's such a great sub that I didn't want to leave him feeling taken for granted.  I acknowledged his feelings, apologized for the situation that was beyond My control, then made it clear that sometimes My job would simply have to come first.  What's your take on it?  What have been some of your experiences in getting through a Domme/sub argument or misunderstanding?

Just food for the boards to divert discussion away from the topic of  Dollar Dommes ` for a change! 

TM

< Message edited by TexasMaam -- 9/2/2007 1:26:03 PM >

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RE: Arguments and misunderstandings - 9/2/2007 2:02:01 PM   
undergroundsea


Posts: 2400
Joined: 6/27/2004
From: Austin, TX
Status: offline 		I will happily contribute to your thread. However, I expect to be compensated for my time that I could instead use to post to the dollar domme threads.

;-)

I think principles of communication in conventional relationships apply. I think hearing and acknowledging how the other person feels, and sharing one's feelings in a non-threatening manner (I felt versus you made me feel) helps. Different people have different perspectives about how much or not to invoke the D/s roles in such conversations. I think emotional needs of each person must be accounted and if they are not accounted in favor of invoking roles, there is potential for resentment that lingers.

I think you handled the situation well. You recognized how he was feeling and apologized. You explained your constraints and reassured him that what happened was not due to lack of regard. And you discussed what to do next time and, possibly, how to avoid the situation next time. I think the situation fared better with him coming back and the matter resolved then rather than each person simmering over it. 

I will add that I think submission has potential to cause one to be taken for granted and some subs might be more guarded against such an occurrence--wondering if they are being taken for granted even when it is just circumstances. I think it would help for each person to identify their sensitive spots. For example it would be helpful for a sub who is particularly sensitive against being taken for granted to share that about himself, or it would be helpful for someone who equates tardiness to lack of respect to convey that. I think the type of misunderstandings you discuss and related slight reduce to an emotional need (a want to be appreciated, a want to be respected, etc), and knowing and addressing such emotional needs helps avoid or resolve such situations.

I once had a positive, healing conversation where a domme was upset. She was upset due to a conversation we had had earlier in the day. In that conversation, I acknowledged that she was upset and apologized for whatever role I had in it. I clarified that it was not my intent to upset her nor was my intent as it came across. I explained my thought process behind the conversation we had had before and she was content with the explanation. Effectively resolving a tense situation helped us feel better about our overall dynamic.

My two one cents. (Please see post below)

Cheers,

Sea

< Message edited by undergroundsea -- 9/2/2007 2:21:43 PM >

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RE: Arguments and misunderstandings - 9/2/2007 2:16:13 PM   
TexasMaam


Posts: 1467
Joined: 6/22/2005
Status: offline 		Thanks for the post!

Oh, and here's your penny....

; )

TM

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RE: Arguments and misunderstandings - 9/2/2007 2:44:03 PM   
arayofsunshine55


Posts: 545
Joined: 8/1/2004
From: San Francisco, CA
Status: offline 		I'm interested in the relationship long term.  I would not expect anyone to just wait for me, I don't like it and I wouldn't do it to another.  But shit does sometimes happens as your example shows.  Reality is, when someone has been waiting for an hour, that's enough time to get up quite a head of steam.   And it takes sometime to bounce back.  And I'd be understanding of that time.  Apologizing doesn't automatically take the heat out of a situation.  But I'd want to know he was trying, or doing the best he could to get over and let go.

And as one who is also owned, I would most certainly have talked about my disappointment, and I would have taken off as your sub did.  Cause the inaction and the waiting would have made it harder and harder to get over in the long run.  So by taking off and speaking my mind I would have been taking care of the relationship which I would believe is our number one and shared goal.  And we also have a kink for transparency so speaking my mind is important.  Mind you how that is done is also important.

And I have been in situations like this one.  The beauty is having the skills on both sides to handle it and continue to move forward.  It enhances the intimacy IMO.




_____________________________

Sunshine

Is it not most transformative, most earthshaking, to pierce the veils of self-deception and illusion, and crack the eggshell of ignorance, to most intimately encounter oneself? Lama Surya Das

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RE: Arguments and misunderstandings - 9/2/2007 3:46:07 PM   
MHOO314


Posts: 3628
Joined: 9/26/2004
Status: offline 		Because My life is run to a schedule, I am very sensitive to other people's schedules----first of all, I would have kept in touch with him as the work progressed---to have him sit there wondering--well IMHO, is inconsiderate---as things got late, I would have implemented a go no go----just because I am the Domina, does not mean I am not sensitive to My submissives schedule as well---especially someone who has come a bit of a ways to see Me--if I understand the scenario--I have never had a time when I could not or My supervisors did not allow Me to at least  make one phone call---I suggest not meeting when it is EOM as that seems to be a recipe for disaster more than once.

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Mistress Hathor


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RE: Arguments and misunderstandings - 9/2/2007 4:16:24 PM   
thetammyjo


Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline 		If Fox and I have a disagreement or a misunderstanding we have standing rules that we sit down and talk about things, hear each person's side but in the end, given that our foundation is Ds my way is the way it will be.

Given your particular situation, TexasMaam, I'd have to say that the first problem lay with him forgetting that it was that period in your work schedule. The second problem was when you agreed to meet with him for dinner. Honestly, that's where the problem really lay not in how long it took you or how long he waited.

Frankly a Ds relationship isn't fair and isn't even sided so I think personally at the end of the evening a boy who drove off on me would not get a call from me let alone an invitation back to take me out to dinner. Personally I would not have made that first call when he wasn't there but I would have gotten into my own car or called a cab and taken myself out to eat.

Once he put forward the idea of taking you out to dinner he had a responsibility to wait for you. Your responsibility was to try and get done but you aren't the boss in your office it sounds like so there was little you could realistically do, right? I'm guessing you didn't foresee this issue when you began the relationship and thus organically it grew into something that resulted in a conflict.

Reads to me like you both need to set some guidelines for when it is acceptable for him to surprise you with these invitations and guidelines for what he needs to do if you should accept an offer but be held up at work. I'm a big fan of writing these things down too because they you can both just look back on what you've agreed to. That has helped us a lot around here.

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

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RE: Arguments and misunderstandings - 9/2/2007 4:19:28 PM   
Grlwithboy


Posts: 655
Joined: 2/8/2005
Status: offline 		My guy is a project manager for a firm with no planned downtime - I can't count how many times I've been on the recieving and of this. I think it's human to sulk and get over it, as long as you have every reason to know it's not in the delayed person's control.


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RE: Arguments and misunderstandings - 9/2/2007 7:01:09 PM   
cloudboy


Posts: 7306
Joined: 12/14/2005
Status: offline
I'd be pissed, just like your manthing was. Not sure I would have driven off, though. I probably would have called or tried to come up to your office if that was possible.

You were the tortfeasor here, so it was your obligation to call, which showed good judgment on your part. Using your authority to effect a positive outcome was also smart.

Using your authority or FEMDOM station to blow him off would have been a massive mistake. Kudos you didn't make it.

------

As for general opinion:

I'm alligned with Sea & MH and not alligned with TJ here. I don't think subs should put up with rude behavior. Seems to me a well placed txt msg (25 seconds) would have saved you from the whole scene. No one should ever keep another person waiting and wondering if possible. To me, BDSM has nothing to do with it.




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RE: Arguments and misunderstandings - 9/2/2007 7:12:32 PM   
DiurnalVampire


Posts: 8125
Joined: 1/19/2006
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline 		I know I am on the raw end of the waiting game often, since Angel is a student and if the professor holds you over when reviewing for an exam, there is no option to just get up and leave.  There is also no option to call and say you are going to be late.
I have been in similiar situations in my store, since I cannot leave my department unstaffed and if my replacement doesnt show on time, I am stuck. I have had to work almost an extra half-shift before I was relieved. Same issue, I cant tell when its going to happen and I cannot get away to call and say I will be late.

He and I have rules for when these things come up.
(a) If it is more than an hour delay, we consider the plans canceled due to circumstance and have agreed to reschedule another time (unless we have reservations somewhere)
(b) We avoid making any sorts of plans around midterms or finals. If I forget he has reviews, he reminds me and we do not make plans no matter how much we would like to see one another.
(c) We do not surprise one another by waiting outside the others classes or work.
(d) If we do consider the plans cancelled or have to leave, we call the toher and leave a voicemail telling them where we are going and whether or not we will be available later the same evening. Sometiems, it can be salvaged, sometimes it cant. Depends on the delay.

We have to be very realistic. Neither he nor I are in charge of our scheudles and so they dont always do as we ask. Regardless of which of us is the D and which is the s.

You could have avoided the problem by suggesting you make plans anotehr day, since you were in the EOM period and you were likely to run into problems. Or at least mentioned to him that delays were possible, and perhaps allowed him to go somewhere to wait for you and called him when you were out so he could pick you up then.

My opinion of course.

Angel and I have had some fantastic fights.  We always weather them, eventualy. It all comes dwn to what I want, and what he can understand and handle. At first, he was concerned that he was goingto be taken for granted, then that he would be replaced becasue of his unavailability.

Things need to be spelled out, and roles have to be understood.

DV




_____________________________

I will be your Dominate if you will be my submit - Fox

Snarko Ergo Sum
If you cannot change your mind, how are you so sure you still have one? -proverb

*Owner of Fox - collared 10/13/07*
VampiresLair

(in reply to cloudboy)
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RE: Arguments and misunderstandings - 9/2/2007 7:24:15 PM   
thetammyjo


Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy
------

As for general opinion:

I'm alligned with Sea & MH and not alligned with TJ here. I don't think subs should put up with rude behavior. Seems to me a well placed txt msg (25 seconds) would have saved you from the whole scene. No one should ever keep another person waiting and wondering if possible. To me, BDSM has nothing to do with it.



Why was this rude of her? She had work obligations, he knew that, and if he didn't she told him, see the OP. At that point he and she should have known it was really out of her hands.

If he had such limited time to hang out and wait for her he should have called her or emailed her a few days before to make plans. I think it's pretty clear from the OP that he should have known it was the end of the month and this happened at her job regularly. If he doesn't like it, hey, unless he's going to take over all her expenses and support her how much of his business is what she has to do at her job?

(living together changing this to some degree but frankly after 15 years of marriage I can tell you that I have zero control over Tom's job or Fox's for that matter and I'd be a fool to think I had more power than I do)

The USA claims to be a capitalistic system, folks, and that means money to get the basics of life and for most of us that means a job or two jobs even. Other things are frosting on life as far as your boss at work is concerned.

Someone springing a dinner (or another activity) on another person is the one setting him/herself up for a disappointment when the other person's life rears up. I consider expecting someone to drop their other obligations to accommodate the person springing the activity to be the rude one in this situation. How much time would it have taken him to contact her ahead of time and thus avoid making his stopover at that time if there was no guarantee that they could meet at a given time?

Like I said if they want to avoid this or a similar problem in the future they need to work out the guidelines now and both of them stuck to the guidelines. Just make the guidelines realistic.

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

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RE: Arguments and misunderstandings - 9/2/2007 8:13:00 PM   
cloudboy


Posts: 7306
Joined: 12/14/2005
Status: offline 		Well, maybe things are open to interpretation, but as I imagine it, TM has a phone at her desk, and he has a cell phone. She never called him to say she was running late b/c of unforseen work developments. ("I hadn't taken the time to call")

This is a clear case of malfeasance and rudeness. The only way its not rude is if somehow the BDSM shifts the relationship rules: aka a FEMDOM can rightfully expect her partner to wait and wonder.

Him driving off in a huff wins no awards for addressing the situation either, but interestingly, DiurnalVampire has a rule, "If it is more than an hour delay, we consider the plans canceled..."

In this case we can presume TM was late by at least one hour, if not more. (7pm or later as the facts seem.) Being that late w/c calling is rude.

If a sub did that to her, and she drove a few hours to see him, he'd be out the door.

That's why she rightfully took action.

Glad to hear that alls well that ends well.



< Message edited by cloudboy -- 9/2/2007 8:14:27 PM >

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RE: Arguments and misunderstandings - 9/2/2007 8:17:19 PM   
arayofsunshine55


Posts: 545
Joined: 8/1/2004
From: San Francisco, CA
Status: offline 		Figuring out who was to blame for what would not be my way of addressing this.  Figuring out what we each needed should the situation arise again would be by far more useful.  being clear how we'd handle it and come to some agreements would be more useful for me.  for us.

_____________________________

Sunshine

Is it not most transformative, most earthshaking, to pierce the veils of self-deception and illusion, and crack the eggshell of ignorance, to most intimately encounter oneself? Lama Surya Das

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RE: Arguments and misunderstandings - 9/2/2007 8:24:10 PM   
SweetDommes


Posts: 3313
Joined: 10/5/2004
Status: offline 		My understanding of it, cloud, is that it was HIS words that she 'hadn't taken the time to call' because her next sentence contained "once I was out the door and able to call"

I do think that she did the right thing by making him come back to talk in person, but he shouldn't have been so pissy once she explained what happened.  Life happens, that means that we can't always do what we want or what other people want.  Figuring out what to do if it happens again is, like Sunshine said, far more important than figuring out who is to blame for it happening this time.

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RE: Arguments and misunderstandings - 9/2/2007 8:54:35 PM   
undergroundsea


Posts: 2400
Joined: 6/27/2004
From: Austin, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo
Frankly a Ds relationship isn't fair and isn't even sided so I think personally at the end of the evening a boy who drove off on me would not get a call from me let alone an invitation back to take me out to dinner. Personally I would not have made that first call when he wasn't there but I would have gotten into my own car or called a cab and taken myself out to eat.


I once was at party in a room with a woman who has a very strong personality and tremendous experience with BDSM. She was tying up her sub when he became upset and demanded to be let out of bondage. Instead of getting angry in return or worrying that her dominance was diminished, she recognized that something must be wrong and out of character. She began to untie him and asked those present there to excuse them. They discussed whatever was needed and later joined the party as if nothing had happened.

I think they resolved the matter with grace. I walked away thinking she was secure in her dominance and that she resolved the matter in a manner that was practical rather than ego driven.

How much or not a D/s relationship is one sided is subjective. For me, a relationship needs to be reasonably even with regard to mutual respect. While the definition of what constitutes mutual respect may vary, I expect many other subs feel similarly. I think TexasMaam responded based on how they have defined their dynamic thus far.

What I gathered from the OP, the sub lives in another city and planned his trip to visit with her over dinner. I agree that forgetting about the EOM matter is at the core for all that led to the situation. It is understandable that both of them wanted to get together for dinner nonetheless since he was in town.

Subs are human and feel much like other humans do. That the sub drove the hour back tells me it is not the act of waiting or the effort which troubled him. I wager it is not hearing anything which troubled him. I sense at the moment he felt unappreciated and not respected. That is likely how a person would feel outside the D/s context and it is easy for these feelings to creep in even in the D/s context, especially if the relationship is relatively young. I think it is reasonable for a sub to be upset if feeling this way.

I agree with Cloubdoy; it would have been better for the sub to call before leaving. Leaving without calling undermined communication. For her to also not call would have further undermined the communication and each would have fumed over feeling disrespected.  If she had not called him when she did, it could have added to the damage or even meant an end to their relationship. Two bits of wisdom I remember from elsewhere are: (1) how much a domme is willing to be flexible depends on how much the relationship merits it, and (2) if one partner is upset, it serves the relationship if the other partner can act to calm the emotions. TexasMaam seems to have found a sub with whom she feels promise and a strong connection. I think her approach served her relationship, which in turn served her.

quote:

If Fox and I have a disagreement or a misunderstanding we have standing rules that we sit down and talk about things


I agree that having rules for how to handle disagreements is a good idea. I caught a well done presentation by Allena Gabosch of Seattle's Wet Spot about what has helped her relationship survive (17?) years. Amongst what has served her is a list of rules for how to handle disagreements. I recommend her presentation and her list to anyone seeking such ideas.

Cheers,

Sea

< Message edited by undergroundsea -- 9/2/2007 9:03:29 PM >

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RE: Arguments and misunderstandings - 9/2/2007 9:53:10 PM   
arayofsunshine55


Posts: 545
Joined: 8/1/2004
From: San Francisco, CA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: undergroundsea
I think they resolved the matter with grace. I walked away thinking she was secure in her dominance and that she resolved the matter in a manner that was practical rather than ego driven.

That is who I desire to be.  Practical.  Non ego-driven.  And graceful.  Always graceful.


_____________________________

Sunshine

Is it not most transformative, most earthshaking, to pierce the veils of self-deception and illusion, and crack the eggshell of ignorance, to most intimately encounter oneself? Lama Surya Das

(in reply to undergroundsea)
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RE: Arguments and misunderstandings - 9/2/2007 10:07:11 PM   
undergroundsea


Posts: 2400
Joined: 6/27/2004
From: Austin, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: arayofsunshine55
That is who I desire to be.  Practical.  Non ego-driven.  And graceful.  Always graceful.


You have always come across as someone who does just that :)

Cheers,

Sea

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RE: Arguments and misunderstandings - 9/3/2007 2:36:04 AM   
MistressShuggie


Posts: 24
Joined: 5/4/2007
Status: offline 		I wouldn't apologize for doing my job and letting him wait an hour, and he would have just bought himself a serious spanking. I'd be angry he felt he had the right to dictate my time or make decisions for me.

I would have let him stew for a while, then made him beg to see me to come get the spanking he earned. I most definitely would NOT have catered to his emotional needs at all, and he would be spending time waiting for me until I felt he learned his lesson not to attempt another power struggle.

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RE: Arguments and misunderstandings - 9/3/2007 2:53:13 AM   
slaveluci


Posts: 4294
Joined: 3/2/2007
From: Little Rock, AR
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressShuggie

I wouldn't apologize for doing my job and letting him wait an hour, and he would have just bought himself a serious spanking. I'd be angry he felt he had the right to dictate my time or make decisions for me.

I would have let him stew for a while, then made him beg to see me to come get the spanking he earned. I most definitely would NOT have catered to his emotional needs at all, and he would be spending time waiting for me until I felt he learned his lesson not to attempt another power struggle.


So how does that particular approach usually work for ya?  Don't know if you have a sub now or have had any in the past but I wonder exactly how that type of response works/has worked...........luci

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RE: Arguments and misunderstandings - 9/3/2007 3:02:20 AM   
MistressShuggie


Posts: 24
Joined: 5/4/2007
Status: offline 		Yes, I have had sucessful long-term TPE relationships.

My approach works beautifully for me with the people who like my style. I'm not for everybody by any stretch of the imagination. I was told just a few days ago by a sweet man I was way too harsh for him. He actively disliked me for it... but I don't like everybody and I don't expect everybody to like me.



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RE: Arguments and misunderstandings - 9/3/2007 3:09:57 AM   
slaveluci


Posts: 4294
Joined: 3/2/2007
From: Little Rock, AR
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressShuggie
My approach works beautifully for me with the people who like my style. I'm not for everybody by any stretch of the imagination

Few of us are.
quote:

I was told just a few days ago by a sweet man I was way too harsh for him. He actively disliked me for it... but I don't like everybody and I don't expect everybody to like me

That's a most healthy outlook.  Some people won't like you no matter what.  Can't be helped. 

I wasn't trying to impugn your style.  I meant to be serious with my question.  It seemed that the situation put forth in the OP, in my opinion, would require more than a spanking to straighten out.  I guess I'm just asking how a physical punishment-unrelated to the "crime"-can "fix" the situation?  Seems some talking would be in order instead.  That's why I was asking if that approach had worked successfully for you in the long term.  Just curious...........luci

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