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RE: Edwards wants to force you to see a doctor - 9/6/2007 3:15:51 PM   
Marc2b


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quote:

Lets see.

I have had Verizon, Cingular, ATT, Sprint, and my buddy hates T-Mobile.

None of them work in my place. None of them work in many parts of the harbor where I work.


Maybe there’s something about where you live and work that makes it cost ineffective to provide service where you live and work.

quote:

I looked into them before taking Verizon as the laughable best of a bad lot. The advertising budgets for
all of them far exceed the infrastructure budgets.


And who should make the decision on where to spend the money? What gives you the right to demand (via government regulation) that they spend their money the way you want them to? Do you have a right to cell phone service?

quote:

I have sent letters, emails, etc., to my carrier.


Were you one of those people who got dropped from a cell phone company recently for being annoying?

Obviously you’re not important enough for them to worry about. Yet they are making enough money to stay in business so they must be pleasing enough customers to do so.

quote:

While it is an interesting deflection of my point, marc2b, my point was that relying on market competition to
ensure the consumer gets a superior product does not always apply. It did with automobiles and the
ascendancy of Japanese quality automobiles dragging American manufacturer quality improvements up, but
in the case of cell phones, it is incorrect.

From my memory, when the telephone infrastructure was set up by a single Government entity back when I was a child, things seemed to work just fine. Examples can be found to disprove your statement there as well.


Here is the problem: I believe that you are mis- interpreting my position to mean that a free market will generate a result of all the people receiving outstanding service all the time. I am making no such claim. A free market will, however, result in most people receiving anywhere from adequate to outstanding service most of the time. So many factors come into play that to list them all would be near impossible. Regarding cell phone service, consider just a few: the number of people who desire the service, how much each individual is willing to pay for the service, how they prefer to pay for the service, cost of materials and construction of cell towers, effect of geographic features (e.g. mountains) on signal strength (some areas would require many more cell towers than other areas), labor relations (strikes, negotiations, contracts), zoning laws (you’re not building that cell tower in our back yard!), and on and on and on. Here’s a really important one: the competency of the company’s officers (e.g they’re ability to predict future trends and successfully adapt).

None of this guarantees you any satisfaction with cell phone carriers. What it does is offer you choices. None of this guarantees you a carrier that you will be pleased with. But clearly many people are pleased with their service. Despite that, you want the government to rig the situation in your favor giving no thought to the fact that other people may not be happy with your idea of what constitutes proper cell phone service – not to mention the economic impact it will have on others.

There is also the problem of the competency of the bureaucrats that will be running the government controlled service. Given the competency that government usually demonstrates, I fail to see why this would be at all desirable. I fail to understand the underlying assumption that the government is best suited to provide the best service.

Yes, I too remember the days of rotary phones and Ma Bell. In all honesty the phone worked just fine most of the time, but I also remember having to wait three or four days for a repair man when the phone broke. I remember higher bills that you had to pay or else lose the phone (the phone actually belonged to the phone company). And I remember that we had no other options because Ma Bell was the only game in town.

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RE: Edwards wants to force you to see a doctor - 9/6/2007 3:42:29 PM   
Marc2b


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quote:

Ahh but healthy people produce more, which has an effect on interstate commerce, and regulation of interstate commerce is a power granted to the Federal Government in the constitution...Don't you know that as far a congress and for the most part SCOTUS, everything effects interstate commerce, and therefore is fair game for the Feds. If we went back to a pre 1920s interpretation of the interstate commerce clause , a large portion of what the federal government does would be considered unconstitutional.


Sorry, I almost missed you there amongst all the tumult.

Yup, I am very much aware that the commerce clause has been used frequently to subvert the Constitution. There was a glimmer of hope in 1993 (I think, it was definitely in the early to mid-90's). The Supreme Court struck down Federal legislation – justified under the commerce clause – prohibiting guns within so many yards of schools. There were the expected indignant squawks about the Supreme Court (and, of course, conservatives) not caring about children but of course such people completely missed the point. The Federal Government didn’t have the authority to enact such legislation – it was a matter for the States (and many States do, in fact, have such laws). One can only hope we’ll someday get a Supreme Court that is as unafraid to reign in the Federal Government.

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RE: Edwards wants to force you to see a doctor - 9/6/2007 4:11:03 PM   
Marc2b


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quote:

I also have repaired roofs. We have a disagreement about section one article eight and how it applies and interacts with amendment ten.

Well... I’m still not entirely sure what your position is. It appears that you believe the phrase "general welfare of the United States..." means the Federal Government has the right to do what it want’s when it wants, to whoever it wants in the name of ensuring that each and every citizen is taken care of. I hope that is not the case. If it is the case, however, I must point out that this would make the Constitution meaningless. Why even bother to list what powers the Federal Government has if it can have whatever power it wants? An unrestrained Federal Government means we have no freedom.

quote:

That is about the end of the line for us then, I think.
You see it your way, I see it mine, and ne'er the twain shall meet.


So... this is the end?

Cue that sad "walking away" music from The Incredible Hulk.

Very well then... If that is how you feel... I understand.

Starts crying.

I just want you to know that I’ll always remember all the good times we had... and... and... that every time I see a traffic light, I’ll shed a tear for you.

Outright sobbing.

Oh God! I can’t write any more tonight! I’m going to make a big pot of macaroni and cheese and put "Fly Away Home" in the DVD player!

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RE: Edwards wants to force you to see a doctor - 9/6/2007 4:31:03 PM   
b12345


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

quote:

Ahh but healthy people produce more, which has an effect on interstate commerce, and regulation of interstate commerce is a power granted to the Federal Government in the constitution...Don't you know that as far a congress and for the most part SCOTUS, everything effects interstate commerce, and therefore is fair game for the Feds. If we went back to a pre 1920s interpretation of the interstate commerce clause , a large portion of what the federal government does would be considered unconstitutional.


Sorry, I almost missed you there amongst all the tumult.

Yup, I am very much aware that the commerce clause has been used frequently to subvert the Constitution. There was a glimmer of hope in 1993 (I think, it was definitely in the early to mid-90's). The Supreme Court struck down Federal legislation – justified under the commerce clause – prohibiting guns within so many yards of schools. There were the expected indignant squawks about the Supreme Court (and, of course, conservatives) not caring about children but of course such people completely missed the point. The Federal Government didn’t have the authority to enact such legislation – it was a matter for the States (and many States do, in fact, have such laws). One can only hope we’ll someday get a Supreme Court that is as unafraid to reign in the Federal Government.


But the Gun free school zones act was reinstated by congress with something to the effect of 'because safe schools promote education, which is vital for interstate commerce...and then the original statute which was struck down.  I believe there have been three other cases where SCOTUS has limited federal power on interstate commerce grounds in the past decade or so.  Just think of what would happen to the country if the constitution were suddenly taken seriously, as it was intended.  Half of the federal gov't would probably be eliminated, and states would actually have some power.

It is amazing how many people read the constitution and don;t stop to think about how we have such a large federal gov't ...or maybe hardly anyone actually reads the damn thing. 

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RE: Edwards wants to force you to see a doctor - 9/7/2007 12:32:36 AM   
Sinergy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

Maybe there’s something about where you live and work that makes it cost ineffective to provide service where you live and work.



Good call.

Downtown Long Beach and southside Los Angeles, throw in a port with 8000+ workers whose minimum base wage approaches six figures and require cellular phones to do their job.

Yep, make sure you provide excellent cell phone service to Daggett, CA.

quote:



Were you one of those people who got dropped from a cell phone company recently for being annoying?



Annoying, yes.  Dropped, no.

quote:



None of this guarantees you any satisfaction with cell phone carriers. What it does is offer you choices. None of this guarantees you a carrier that you will be pleased with.



Goverment control would guarantee minimum standards of quality provided to the consumer.

A bunch of companies providing inferior service is not much of a choice.

Sinergy

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RE: Edwards wants to force you to see a doctor - 9/7/2007 12:55:06 AM   
Termyn8or


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Jumpthrough:

Get this, if you let them pay for your healthcare them they can make decisions regarding options for that healthcare, based on present or future costs.

Hw who holds the pursestrings can pull whichever he likes. You could become a guinea pig as well as left out in the cold from new effective treatments, those for which the "company" does not yet have contracts.

The first thing to do is to bring the entire medical industry to it's knees via a boycott, and a few of us dying. Then we find the doctors and pay them directly, and cut out the thousands of middlemen in the process.

Then (heaven forbid) we actually pay for our own shit. Like four thousand or so for the bypass. No money ? Die. Be responsible for your own survival, then maybe you will think twice before eating that microwave popcorn.

As long as someone else foots the bill, you abdicate responsibility to them, is it not right that then they get authority over those things that can affect theiir financial well being ?

That is the crux of it, ALL insurance of any kind is against the USA way, against the Constitution, against freedom. Take that how you want it.

T

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RE: Edwards wants to force you to see a doctor - 9/7/2007 6:24:20 AM   
mnottertail


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LOL, Marc....I am all stove up here. Wracked, actually.

Ron

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RE: Edwards wants to force you to see a doctor - 9/7/2007 6:30:30 AM   
Marc2b


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quote:

But the Gun free school zones act was reinstated by congress with something to the effect of 'because safe schools promote education, which is vital for interstate commerce...and then the original statute which was struck down. I believe there have been three other cases where SCOTUS has limited federal power on interstate commerce grounds in the past decade or so. Just think of what would happen to the country if the constitution were suddenly taken seriously, as it was intended. Half of the federal gov't would probably be eliminated, and states would actually have some power.

It is amazing how many people read the constitution and don;t stop to think about how we have such a large federal gov't ...or maybe hardly anyone actually reads the damn thing.


What is even more amazing is how many people have never even read the Constitution and don’t even have an inkling of such concepts as enumerated powers, limited government, States rights, etc. But what can we expect from an education system that graduates people who can’t even find their country on a map (and it’s a pretty big country too, it’s not like it’s hard to spot).

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RE: Edwards wants to force you to see a doctor - 9/7/2007 7:27:53 AM   
Marc2b


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quote:

Good call.

Downtown Long Beach and southside Los Angeles, throw in a port with 8000+ workers whose minimum base wage approaches six figures and require cellular phones to do their job.

Yep, make sure you provide excellent cell phone service to Daggett, CA.

So everything, I just said about all the factors that could weigh in on a company's decision about where and when to provide service means nothing? It all comes down to "I’m not happy and they should be made to do something about it." This is the attitude of a four year old throwing a temper tantrum.

quote:

Annoying, yes. Dropped, no.

Well, I sure as hell wouldn’t blame them if they did drop you.
quote:

Goverment control would guarantee minimum standards of quality provided to the consumer.

On what basis do you assert this? Bear in mind that we are talking about the same government that runs Social Security, and the Iraq war.

quote:

A bunch of companies providing inferior service is not much of a choice.

Sinergy, I like you and respect you but I have to set aside decorum for a moment. You are failing to grasp an important – fundamental – concept:

The rest of society does not exist to bend over backwards and kiss it’s own ass in order to satisfy you.
 
So you’re not happy with your cell phone service? Well boo – fucking – hoo! The cell phone companies don’t exist to provide cell phone service, they exist to make a profit (which, despite what some people think, is not a dirty word). They make that profit by offering cell phone service. If enough people are satisfied, they’ll make money, if enough people are not, they won’t. Apparently, enough people are satisfied. But you’re not. Giving no thought to your lack of requisite knowledge, you demand the government come in (despite their lack of requisite knowledge) and force others to make you happy whilst giving no thought that the resources that are now being forcibly diverted to satisfy your whinny ass are being diverted from others.

If you’re not happy with your choices of cell phone service then I guess you’re just shit out of luck! I fail to understand why you think you are entitled to cell phone service.

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RE: Edwards wants to force you to see a doctor - 9/7/2007 7:38:51 AM   
Marc2b


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quote:

LOL, Marc....I am all stove up here. Wracked, actually.


Well it good to know that someone around here get's my sense of humor.  I'm curious to know - if you were stuck in a boat, in the middle of the ocean, with thompsonx:

Smack him upside the head with an oar, yes or no?

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RE: Edwards wants to force you to see a doctor - 9/7/2007 7:44:13 AM   
mnottertail


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Nope, I like the feller.  Horrid serious, but he can come up with some wicked humorous shit as well.

No oar, then.

Ron

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RE: Edwards wants to force you to see a doctor - 9/7/2007 9:36:54 AM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

So you’re not happy with your cell phone service? Well boo – fucking – hoo! The cell phone companies don’t exist to provide cell phone service, they exist to make a profit (which, despite what some people think, is not a dirty word).


..this is the critical point. Does a cell phone company, or any other company, have a responsibility to society at large in addition to its need to turn a profit....or is the very concept of a responsibility to society at large wrong-headed?
If profit is all that one can resonably expect of a company then why bother with laws preventing, say, the dumping of toxic waste next to schools? It seems to me unarguable that a responsibility to society at large exists.....and additionally is vital to the general well-being. So why not require cell phone companies to provide comprehensive coverage? Makes those 911 calls a bit quicker, saves a few lives and has less impact on the bottom line than you'd think.......

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RE: Edwards wants to force you to see a doctor - 9/7/2007 10:44:28 AM   
curiouspet55


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It all goes back to safety v. liberty.

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin
 
While I personally would agree that seeing a doctor is safe, healthy thing to do...I hate the doctor, and if I don't want to go, who's choice is that other than mine?  This is the issue with abortion, pro-anorexia people, suicide, and many other topics - is the government allowed to protect our individual lives, or is it our decision whether or not we wish to damange them?
 
my two cents,
cp55

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RE: Edwards wants to force you to see a doctor - 9/7/2007 11:04:54 AM   
Marc2b


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quote:

Nope, I like the feller.  Horrid serious, but he can come up with some wicked humorous shit as well.

No oar, then.


Horrid serious.  That's the best description I've heard of him yet.  Very well then, no oar.  But I still say if we run out of food, he's fair game.  Oar or be oared.

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RE: Edwards wants to force you to see a doctor - 9/7/2007 12:56:25 PM   
Marc2b


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quote:

..this is the critical point. Does a cell phone company, or any other company, have a responsibility to society at large in addition to its need to turn a profit....or is the very concept of a responsibility to society at large wrong-headed?
If profit is all that one can resonably expect of a company then why bother with laws preventing, say, the dumping of toxic waste next to schools? It seems to me unarguable that a responsibility to society at large exists.....and additionally is vital to the general well-being. So why not require cell phone companies to provide comprehensive coverage? Makes those 911 calls a bit quicker, saves a few lives and has less impact on the bottom line than you'd think.......


The concept of responsibility to society at large is not wrong-headed but your interpretation of it is.  Responsibility is, in fact, the very foundation of society – the fact that we have responsibilities to each other. For example: don’t kill each other. The question is where do we draw the line? As I see it, our primary responsibility is to respect the rights of others – to respect their freedom of choice. That’s not good enough for some people. They want to compel others to be charitable, giving no thought to their ability (to say nothing of their freedom of choice) to fulfil such arbitrary (and usually unknowledgeable) demands.

Dumping toxic waste next to a school would be a gross violation of other’s rights for obvious reasons but it is not in the same category as forcing cell phone companies to provide service to a particular area because somebody thinks they should.

I am part of a family company that makes it’s money renting space for two art galleries, 30 artist studios and a gift shop. We also rent space for art teachers to hold art classes. Not every artist who would like a studio can afford one. Should we be forced to lay aside two or three studios and give them to poor artists free of charge? Some people would advocate a law forcing us to do so. "It’s your social responsibility," they would say, "to help out poor artists, and it will benefit society by allowing these poor artists to create works the rest of society can enjoy, works society would not otherwise get to enjoy."

Sounds good, doesn’t it? I mean what decent, caring person wouldn’t be in favor of such a law? Mean, money grubbing, landlords like us should be forced to give back to the community if we are not going to do so on our own, right? But there are two problems with this. First, there is the simple oversight that our business does benefit the community. We provide space for artists that they otherwise might not have. They produce fantastic works that might not otherwise be produced. People come to the gallery and derive enjoyment from viewing them and some of them buy the art – thus providing some extra income for the artists. Adults and children alike have the opportunity to learn from established artists.

More importantly is the fact that we couldn’t afford to give away studio space, a fact that those in favor of the Free Studios for Poor Artists Act probably didn’t consider (or more likely, having a bias against businesses, wouldn’t believe). To make up the loss from this forced charity, we would have no choice but to raise the rents on the other studios. Some of the paying artists would, no doubt, be unable (or unwilling) to pay the higher rent. So they loose out on studio space and we loose even more money. If we can’t attract new artists able and willing to pay the higher rent, we’ll go out of business. That means five people out of full time jobs and three people out of part time jobs (and that’s not counting the art teachers who rent the classroom space). That means less property and income taxes for the government. That means twenty-seven artists we rent to, as well as the three artists in the free studios, will be out of a studio. That means artists without a space to display their work for viewing and for sale. People who enjoy coming to view the galleries will have that enjoyment taken from them. People who wanted to take art classes will be denied. I see a lot of losers in that scenario but no winners – except for the smug morons who deem themselves morally, intellectually, and socially superior because they supported the Free Studios for Poor Artists Act. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again – it is easy to have high moral values so long as the consequences don’t affect you.

This applies to any business. Sinergy is whining because he can’t find a cell phone company that provides decent coverage where he works (maybe they’ve decided there are two many whiners in the area). He is demanding that the government come in and rig the situation to his benefit despite having no knowledge of the cell phone business (I presume, but even if he does, the overall point reamins) and giving no thought to the possible effects upon either the industry or it’s customers. If cell phone companies are forced to provide coverage where he works (possibly at loss) might that mean the companies will have to cancel planned expansions somewhere else? What gives Sinergy the right to deny service to those new areas just because he isn’t being served? What gives him the right to deny local contractors the business they thought they were about to get (and how will the loss of that business affect them)? What gives him the right to interfere in the decision making process of the cell phone companies just because he presumes himself more intelligent than they when it comes to operating a cell phone company?

There was a time, not that long ago, when we did not have cell phones. We do now because some smart people (looking to make money!) invented them (I wonder if we would have cell phones if Ma Bell was still the only game in town, after all they had no competition so they had little incentive to offer new services – something else to consider with socialized medicine). They offered cell phones and cell phone service for a price. People looked at the situation and some decided the really like the service (or at least were satisfied with it), others did not. There were enough of the former to allow the cell phone companies to make a profit. Now some people have decided that cell phones aren’t just a tool, a service, that make some aspects of life easier but a right. I just don’t understand that sense of entitlement.

< Message edited by Marc2b -- 9/7/2007 1:17:13 PM >


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RE: Edwards wants to force you to see a doctor - 9/7/2007 11:14:21 PM   
Sinergy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

So everything, I just said about all the factors that could weigh in on a company's decision about where and when to provide service means nothing? It all comes down to "I’m not happy and they should be made to do something about it." This is the attitude of a four year old throwing a temper tantrum.



Everything you just said is a deflection.

I simply pointed out that cellular companies are more concerned with stealing each other's business than with providing a superior product.

Government control ensures that these companies provide the service people contract with them to provide.

quote:



Well, I sure as hell wouldn’t blame them if they did drop you.



I am happy I have such a profound impact on your emotional balance in terms of business decisions.

It is, however, irrelevant to the discussion.  I am sure there is somebody else you can discuss your personal
issues with, but it is not germane to the message boards.

quote:

quote:

Goverment control would guarantee minimum standards of quality provided to the consumer.

On what basis do you assert this? Bear in mind that we are talking about the same government that runs Social Security, and the Iraq war.


Check the amount of your hot dog that is dead rat and get back to me on this.

Big business did not clean up until the government told them to.

The rest of your post, while interesting, is odd coming from somebody ranting about government control being
the bane of all evil.

I would love cell phone service to be good.  However, your point is that all government control is bad all the time.

I am simply trying to point out the number of examples where government control had a positive outcome far outweighs the number of examples where it had a negative outcome.

If you dont like this, ask your meat packer to make sure you get extra rat shit and dead meat packers in your hot dog.

Sinergy

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RE: Edwards wants to force you to see a doctor - 9/9/2007 9:43:19 PM   
Marc2b


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quote:

Everything you just said is a deflection.

I simply pointed out that cellular companies are more concerned with stealing each other's business than with providing a superior product.

Government control ensures that these companies provide the service people contract with them to provide.

If cell phone companies are more concerned with enticing customers away from other cell phone companies (which is business, not stealing) that is their right. Whether that attitude will have a positive or negative effect on their business will vary from company to company (as it would in any kind of business) and will be just one factor in that company’s profitability.

If you have a contract with a cell phone company that says in exchange for your money they will provide service where you live and work and they are not providing that service, then they are in breech of that contract and you can seek redress in the civil courts. If, however, your contract doesn’t specify which areas you will get service then they are not violating the contract (did you read the fine print?) By demanding that the government compel them to provide you service in certain areas you are essentially asking the government to break the contract in your favor. Since both you and the company entered into the contract on your own free will why should the government involve itself if there’s been no breech of contract?
quote:

I am happy I have such a profound impact on your emotional balance in terms of business decisions.

It is, however, irrelevant to the discussion. I am sure there is somebody else you can discuss your personal issues with, but it is not germane to the message boards.

You know, you sound like you’re channeling thompsonx.
Perhaps I should have put the laughing smiley at the end. It was just a little nose tweaking (as is the above sentence).

quote:

Check the amount of your hot dog that is dead rat and get back to me on this.

Big business did not clean up until the government told them to.

The rest of your post, while interesting, is odd coming from somebody ranting about government control being the bane of all evil.
I would love cell phone service to be good. However, your point is that all government control is bad all the time.

I am simply trying to point out the number of examples where government control had a positive outcome far outweighs the number of examples where it had a negative outcome.

If you dont like this, ask your meat packer to make sure you get extra rat shit and dead meat packers in your hot dog.

I do not nor have I ever contended that government control is bad all the time, that is an extrapolation on your part. You are engaging in an all to common tactic (and one that I freely confess to falling into myself from time to time), trying to make someone’s argument look weak, absurd or silly by pushing it to the extreme. Besides, such a belief would be self contradicting – if I believed that all government control was bad then the only good government would be no government. That would be anarchy and if you think I’m anywhere close to being an anarchist, talk to NorthernGent.

I do not agree with your contention that examples where government control had positive outcomes far outweighs negative outcomes. First of all, are we talking about government in general or the United States Government only? If we’re talking about government in general then it’s no contest. Throughout human history government control has given us everything from the Spanish Inquisition and the Cambodian Killing Fields to the Trabant and no liquor sales on Sunday laws. If were just talking about the United States I still don’t think you have a case. To even list all the alphabet soup of government agencies and their myriad inefficiencies and scandals would be exhausting.

What I am concerned about, however, is the negative outcomes we don’t see (or choose not to see) because they happen to other people. I think I have given enough example of how some new regulation, law, or government agency can have unintended consequence. If you want to have laws against putting rat meat in hot dogs you’ll get no argument from me but that is a far cry from having the government regulate how an entire industry distributes it’s service when there is no need to other than some people’s dissatisfaction with the service. Aside from a breech of contract, why should the government be involved at all?

I see in this the same fundamental flaw in thinking that I see in so many other people’s proposed solutions to misuse (real or perceived) of power. Namely, that the solution to the misuse of power is to hand that power to someone else (usually themselves or a surrogate). But handing that power to the government is concentrating that power in the hands of a relative few (in a free market, others can challenge more powerful companies with lower prices and/or a better product or service or other innovations). Considering the abuses of power government is known for, why would we want to increase the spheres of our life it has control over? It is one thing to have traffic laws (i.e. to regulate driving) because that protects our most fundamental right, namely life, but whose rights are we protecting if we have the government making marketing decisions (decision the government bureaucrats are likely to be unqualified to make) for business? Your alleged "right" to have cell phone service in the harbor? I just don’t see where a right to cell phone service comes from. Or why it trumps a legitimate business’ right to decide for itself where to offer service.

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Profile   Post #: 197
RE: Edwards wants to force you to see a doctor - 9/10/2007 2:33:01 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

I see in this the same fundamental flaw in thinking that I see in so many other people’s proposed solutions to misuse (real or perceived) of power. Namely, that the solution to the misuse of power is to hand that power to someone else (usually themselves or a surrogate). But handing that power to the government is concentrating that power in the hands of a relative few (in a free market, others can challenge more powerful companies with lower prices and/or a better product or service or other innovations). Considering the abuses of power government is known for, why would we want to increase the spheres of our life it has control over? It is one thing to have traffic laws (i.e. to regulate driving) because that protects our most fundamental right, namely life, but whose rights are we protecting if we have the government making marketing decisions (decision the government bureaucrats are likely to be unqualified to make) for business? Your alleged "right" to have cell phone service in the harbor? I just don’t see where a right to cell phone service comes from. Or why it trumps a legitimate business’ right to decide for itself where to offer service.


In Europe where services and utilities were privatized and sold off to private companies, these services have tended to become more expensive and inefficient and have generally required more tax money to keep them afloat than publicly owned services and utilities. One just has to compare Britain to France and Germany. For example, take the railways, British trains have been privatised and are expensive and inefficient to the point the British tax payer pays more for their crap train service than the French and German taxpayers do, who also have the pay less at the ticket office. ditto health services, buses, energy, water and just about any service that has a social aspect. Telecom industries where constant innovation and competition can truely exist has proven the exception, though nationalised telecom companies have been able to compete in the free market just as efficiently as private ones but it could be argued that is because they are competing with private companies.

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RE: Edwards wants to force you to see a doctor - 9/10/2007 10:33:20 AM   
Sinergy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

Dumping toxic waste next to a school would be a gross violation of other’s rights for obvious reasons but it is not in the same category as forcing cell phone companies to provide service to a particular area because somebody thinks they should.



I am curious why you have annointed yourself the final arbiter of where the line should be drawn, Marc2b.

What if there is an accident at pier 400 and nobody can get 911 there in time to save a person's life because
there is no cell phone coverage?  Wouldnt you call that a gross violation of the person who just got run over by heavy equipment's rights by the cell phone carriers negligence?

Additionally, the primary reason ATT was created was to ensure phone lines and infrastructure be built to provide service to all people in the United States.  Under government regulation and control, this was done to the point which enabled [sarcasm] Al Gore [/sarcasm] to invent the internet.  Then the voters were convinced that All Government Regulation Was Bad All The Time, and ATT got broken up and deregulated.  Service prices shot up.  Service went down.  Etc.

Well, cell phone coverage and infrastructure has not been established to provide service to all people in the United States.  The reason for this is because corporate America is too busy trying to steal each other's customers away to provide a workable product.

You still have not made a compelling argument as to how the consumer benefits from cell phone providers failure to provide a decent product.  Feel free to continue sniping at me, but it is not really bolstering your case.

Sinergy

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Profile   Post #: 199
RE: Edwards wants to force you to see a doctor - 9/10/2007 11:51:09 AM   
Marc2b


Posts: 6660
Joined: 8/7/2006
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quote:

In Europe where services and utilities were privatized and sold off to private companies, these services have tended to become more expensive and inefficient and have generally required more tax money to keep them afloat than publicly owned services and utilities. One just has to compare Britain to France and Germany. For example, take the railways, British trains have been privatised and are expensive and inefficient to the point the British tax payer pays more for their crap train service than the French and German taxpayers do, who also have the pay less at the ticket office. ditto health services, buses, energy, water and just about any service that has a social aspect. Telecom industries where constant innovation and competition can truely exist has proven the exception, though nationalised telecom companies have been able to compete in the free market just as efficiently as private ones but it could be argued that is because they are competing with private companies.


If they are privately owned why are they receiving tax money? Shouldn’t they be paying taxes. If they are receiving public funding then they are less dependent upon pleasing the customer for their profit. There is also the fact that most utilities, by their vary nature, are defacto monopolies (there is only so much room to lay down train tracks or water pipes or electrical cables) which bolsters my contention that when a company has no competition, it can slack off with little consequence.

< Message edited by Marc2b -- 9/10/2007 12:49:05 PM >


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