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RE: How important is protocol? - 9/3/2007 4:04:28 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

ORIGINAL: arayofsunshine55

In my relationship it is not at all important.  The dynamic is furthered by our combined will. Not by what words I use.


Is protocol merely words in your view?


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RE: How important is protocol? - 9/3/2007 4:09:54 PM   
AquaticSub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

Interesting point.  However, if one is not submissive--or at the very least submitting to another--would one ever kneel?



Sure, if they have their own reasons. People lie to each other and tell people they love them when they don't for their own reasons.

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RE: How important is protocol? - 9/3/2007 4:32:02 PM   
gypsygrl


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Status: offline 		Right.  I would probably place money on the fact that the majority of people who deny the existence of protocols, simply don't understand what a protocol is.  Its any regular pattern of behavior that's relatively explicit in that its been talked about.  It may or may not be patterned after a bd/sm clique.  And, I would bet lots of vanilla relationships have them also although vanilla protocols wouldn't necessarily be devoted to furthering an  ayssemetrical power exchange.   Dinner at 6 pm, bedtime around 11, knock before entering someone else's house, call before stopping in at your sister's, make an appointment to see a dr...those are all examples of protocols.

quote:

  Protocol is one of those words people get all funny about.

I always enjoy these discussions, because 80% of the people automatically associate "protocol" with something "erotic and kinky".

In the simplest of terms, its simply a "defined behavior". I will go out on a limb and say they are pretty much used in every relationship, but people simply arent aware they are in fact protocols.

For example, there is a subtle irony I have noticed. People will say "We dont use protocols in our relationships" and then proceed to say "He doesnt want me to call him "Sir" or "Master" so I dont." Well...thats a protcol...a protocol dictating that you will in fact not call him "Sir" or "Master".




< Message edited by gypsygrl -- 9/3/2007 4:33:43 PM >

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RE: How important is protocol? - 9/3/2007 4:44:13 PM   
KnightofMists


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

Do you consider the protocols necessary to the relationship?  Could you have fundamentally the same relationship without them?


First.. what is protocols.  As Kyra stated, "the protocols outline how we will interact with him"

how they interact with me is not just the kinky.. but also how they shall manage their emotions and express them in a constructive manner.  How they shall manage their thoughts and express them in a constructive manner.  It is not only how they interact with me.. but also how I will interact with them.

Protocols can be highly structured and defined or they can be much more informal and free flowing.    But in all cases their is some boundaries and expectations of behavior.    The more formal or structured the more detail in the behaviors that are expected and the narrower the boundaries of this expected behavior.

If the girls fail to interact with me constructively... it is highly likely that our relationship would suffer as a result and would likely end.  Therefore, a lack of following protocols would lead to a failed relationship.  As such make following protocols neccessary for the relationship.

A fundamental aspect of our relationship is Total Authority Transfer.  Protocol is a natural result of that dynamic.  Even if it is only actually one specific protocol.  Unless the Master can read minds and know every single need and want that a slave may require, there is the protocol for a slave to give this information to the Master.  Having a TAT structure establishes that a Slave will and must have permissions/decisions from the Master.  How this is done will vary from relationship to relationship.... but the "How" is the protocol of the relationship.  In otherwords.. by it's Nature... TAT and protocol go hand in hand.  TAT without Protocol is like a Car without gas.... it still might be a car... but it will not go very far.

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RE: How important is protocol? - 9/3/2007 4:48:25 PM   
DiurnalVampire


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

What role does protocol play in furthering a Dominant/submissive dynamic?  What is the importance to the relationship that the submissive/slave say "Sir," "Master," "My Lord," (or the feminine equivalants) when addressing the dominant?

For me,it depends on the submissive.  Angel refers to me as Mommy when he is alone with me. For him, it is important becaue it reinforces our relationship. It has nothing specifically to do with the protocol of being titled.

None of my other boys were required to refer to me by a certain title. I dont feel its necessary to maintain the dynamic. Truitt does cal me various titles, but for him they are as much terms of endearment as they are of respect.  Kitten never did. Babydoll cals me Maam when he is being cute, or sarcastic.

DV


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RE: How important is protocol? - 9/3/2007 4:49:02 PM   
arayofsunshine55


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

ORIGINAL: arayofsunshine55

In my relationship it is not at all important.  The dynamic is furthered by our combined will. Not by what words I use.



Is protocol merely words in your view?


No it isn't.  But the OP was specifically about words. 

Reality is we are not highly protocol driven.. We have few rules.  He leads I follow.  That's about it.  All encompassing as it is.  That's it.  Well and he is particular about dress. but how I dress is not "protocol" to me.  What furthers our dynamic is literally our force of wills.  And my force of will is major.   Our combined desire.  We are both in it.  We have both agreed to it.  We both like it.  It is a shared goal to which we have both signed on.   I don't really need or desire more than that.

You specifically asked about protocol to maintain the dynamic.  And it is to that specific concept that I am replying.



< Message edited by arayofsunshine55 -- 9/3/2007 4:51:27 PM >

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RE: How important is protocol? - 9/3/2007 4:49:36 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists
how they interact with me is not just the kinky.. but also how they shall manage their emotions and express them in a constructive manner. How they shall manage their thoughts and express them in a constructive manner. It is not only how they interact with me.. but also how I will interact with them.


Celeste43 indicated that protocols stifled communication.  As I read this, you seem to be saying quite the opposite...

Thoughts?


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RE: How important is protocol? - 9/3/2007 4:53:28 PM   
servantheart


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jill805

For me, the most important protocol is my morning cup of tea..............


I hear ya!  I'm totally useless to my Master (or anyone else) until I have my can of coke 



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RE: How important is protocol? - 9/3/2007 4:56:58 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

ORIGINAL: servantheartI hear ya! I'm totally useless to my Master (or anyone else) until I have my can of coke


I am fortunate that my slave appreciates the importance of coffee every morning!


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RE: How important is protocol? - 9/3/2007 4:57:48 PM   
breatheasone


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Status: offline 		Master and i don't have any, He prefers it that way. Perhaps someday we'll have little rituals that we do at bedtime or what have you. I think that would be very nice.

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RE: How important is protocol? - 9/3/2007 4:58:02 PM   
BeingChewsie


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Status: offline 		We have very little protocol in place. He is not called by any honorific. Tone of voice and demeanor are about the only ones I can think of. I can't use a dismissive tone with him. Really beyond that we have no protocols in place. I express my submissiveness through obedience.

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RE: How important is protocol? - 9/3/2007 4:58:20 PM   
KnightofMists


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

Celeste43 indicated that protocols stifled communication.  As I read this, you seem to be saying quite the opposite...

Thoughts?



protocols could both stifle and/or enhance communcation.... just because one has protocols doesn't mean that it will be constructive.

The fact of the matter is to have contructive protocols not destructive ones.  Each relationship needs to determine what protocols is best for their relationship.  What affects does the protocol have on the relationship.. is the affects what is wanted... if not.. change the protocol..  I have changed protocols alot... I expect the same in the future too.

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RE: How important is protocol? - 9/3/2007 5:01:26 PM   
gypsygrl


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Status: offline 		Not in my mind.  Pretty much any two people who communicate on a regular basis have a variety of protocols for doing so.  Most people who know me, know I tend to go  to bed early and won't call me after 9 pm.  If I'm having an 'issue' I have to talk about it right away when I'm having the issue.  Master's figured out that even though this is the case, I won't discuss the issue in front of others and pulls me aside (or I pull him aside).  Basically, as he said "if I'm having a problem, everything freezes" (I thought he was brilliant when he figured this out lol).  These are informal and have little resemblance to typical bd/sm protocols, but in my mind, things like this make communication much easier rather than stifle it.  (I love thinking about protocols.)

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RE: How important is protocol? - 9/3/2007 5:05:43 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

ORIGINAL: breatheasone

Master and i don't have any, He prefers it that way. Perhaps someday we'll have little rituals that we do at bedtime or what have you. I think that would be very nice.


Those rituals are very nice indeed...my slave and I bid each other good night as the last thing before we go to sleep, and good morning when we wake up.  It feels good!


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RE: How important is protocol? - 9/3/2007 5:38:32 PM   
Kelika


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Status: offline 		I have only worn a collar of consideration, but in my time in that collar and the time leading up to it, I personally loved the protocols and rituals.  I think that is one element that is missing from the discussion…the difference between protocols and rituals.

  A protocol to me is a defined set of rules of how I was expected to behave or what was expected of me to do.  I took comfort in that; it was secure, security and it made me feel wanted and safe.

  Rituals are more like traditions, but not done on a regular basis.  It might be that if the Dominant has had an exceptionally tough day at work, he may enjoy a specific drink or maybe a bath where he is washed as opposed to shower.  Women tend to have, I believe, more traditions.  When we feel tired or we see our eyes puffy, we may decide to use cucumbers or take a bath with some bathing salts.

  That is how I see the two things.

  For each relationship, they are different.  How many protocols are used, if any, are different.  It really is what is defined between the couple or triad (or more).

  For some, it is important to distinguish that protocol in order to get into their “roles”, especially.  For instance, a woman who is a supervisor at work, and in charge of making decisions, being above others, or whatever the case may be, may need some sort of protocols to keep her submission in the forefront of her mind and to reinforce her choice to submit to her partner.

  For the record, I speak in terms of a man being dominant and a female submissive as that is the case for me, but obviously I mean no offense.

  While some may not partake in protocols, others need them and desire them to feel safe and secure and help them get to that “head” space.

  One of –the- most important things I was told once in regards to protocols though was this.  “Inspect, what you expect”!  If I am expected to write out my daily goals in a journal so my dominant can see if I am making good productive use of time, if he doesn’t in that same journal or another one ask for details on how I accomplished or didn’t accomplish the goals the day before…and critique me or tell me he is proud…then it’s useless to have them!

  Thank you for the opportunity to give my humble opinion…*smiles softly*

Kelika

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RE: How important is protocol? - 9/3/2007 6:19:27 PM   
Missokyst


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Status: offline 		Not for me.  To me that would just be being a good hostess.  I would do it for any guest or family member living with me. 
I don't see protocal as an important point of submission.  For me that is just some thing that someone needs to make them "feel" as if they are in charge.  I would go out of my way to please my mate, family or guest, regardless of whether I felt sub to him or not.

Personally, I have never had issues with who I am, whether that be sub, or boss.  Calling people sir does not make me feel submissive.  Having people call me ma'am if they are working for me doesn't make me feel as if I am in charge of them.  What makes me in charge is my acceptance that I am the boss and hold the power.  I have never needed the added "cues" that tell me I am either in charge or not.

For me people are people.  If I defer to them it is because of them, and not because they demand that I follow certain protocals.  I see that as not so much to make me feel submissive, but to make them feel dominant.  And I would never view someone as dominant who needed that sort of assistance.

But thats just me.  
Kyst 
quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

ORIGINAL: Missokyst
I wouldn't have considered that a protocal unless there is something special about the way it is served.


Seeking a little clarity here:  Would the dominant stating that coffee was to be prepared in a certain way and at a certain time count as "something special"?



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RE: How important is protocol? - 9/3/2007 6:24:56 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kelika
I think that is one element that is missing from the discussion…the difference between protocols and rituals.

A protocol to me is a defined set of rules of how I was expected to behave or what was expected of me to do. I took comfort in that; it was secure, security and it made me feel wanted and safe.

Rituals are more like traditions, but not done on a regular basis. It might be that if the Dominant has had an exceptionally tough day at work, he may enjoy a specific drink or maybe a bath where he is washed as opposed to shower. Women tend to have, I believe, more traditions. When we feel tired or we see our eyes puffy, we may decide to use cucumbers or take a bath with some bathing salts.


Thank you for bringing this up.  I agree, the distinction between protocol and ritual is indeed important.  In my own mind, both are vital aspects of every relationship.

I do not agree that rituals are things done irregularly.  There are little rituals I have with my slave that we do daily (the good night/good morning ritual I describe in an earlier post, for example). 

To my way of thinking, these rituals provide another layer of nurturing and re-inforcement to the relationship.  They are the subtle reminders that the relationship is a dynamic thing, with a life essence all its own. 

While some rituals MAY be irregular in occurrence, other rituals are highly regular.




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RE: How important is protocol? - 9/3/2007 6:33:46 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Missokyst
If I defer to them it is because of them, and not because they demand that I follow certain protocals. I see that as not so much to make me feel submissive, but to make them feel dominant.


Some submissives have shared with me the view that protocols help reinforce a mindset of obedience, drawing in the process a distinction between that and "feeling submissive" (the latter being something that is innate and not manufactured by protocol, ritual, or any other external  entity).



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RE: How important is protocol? - 9/3/2007 6:56:51 PM   
Missokyst


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Status: offline 		Yeah, I gotten that discussion alot from the newbies on my lists over the years.  And yes, if that is what it takes to make someone get into the mindset of obedience more power to them. 
But obedience isn't something I think of when I am submitting to a partner.  My sole desire is to make them happy.  Obedience is not an issue.  Pleasing is.  I don't need externals to make me want to please.  I just need someone I want to please.
Kyst

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

Some submissives have shared with me the view that protocols help reinforce a mindset of obedience, drawing in the process a distinction between that and "feeling submissive" (the latter being something that is innate and not manufactured by protocol, ritual, or any other external  entity).




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pain is the breaking of the shell that encloses your understanding ~Gibran, Kahlil

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RE: How important is protocol? - 9/3/2007 7:07:03 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Missokyst
But obedience isn't something I think of when I am submitting to a partner. My sole desire is to make them happy. Obedience is not an issue. Pleasing is.


Do you distinguish between pleasure dynamics and power dynamics in submitting, then?


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