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RE: Second chances:give them or no way - 9/4/2007 10:47:49 PM   
Estring


Posts: 3314
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		I would be open to giving second chances, just as I would hope to be given a second chance if I screwed up. But after more than a year? Not sure about that.
I think the forgiving each other is a good move, and a form of closure. It's probably best to move on.

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(in reply to SirEbonyPhoenix)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Second chances:give them or no way - 9/4/2007 11:30:13 PM   
Kimveri


Posts: 783
Joined: 7/14/2007
From: Vegas
Status: offline 		Howdy, folks,

Hello, EbonyPhoenix,

quote:

ORIGINAL: SirEbonyPhoenix
Recently, I spoke with an uncollared submissive for the first time in over a year after we had a misunderstanding. We forgave each other, but I'm still having some doubts as to whether we should give it another try. My question is this: If you were in a D/s relationship with someone who broke your heart, should you give them another chance or kick them to the curb?


Ok....misunderstanding, forgave each other, doubts remaining, broke my heart...

Second chance? Nahh....

I am with Mercnbeth on this one. I live by a hard motto: "Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on ME" & I don't feel very healthy when I got shame splattered all over me like the bloody mess of a twice-shattered heart.

I also believe life is too short to spend much time running in reverse.

I DO believe in forgiveness. Accept the lesson you both paid dearly to learn, savor it, get as much out of that lesson as you can & then wish each other all the best. Forgiving each other was great, being friendly may also be nice, but move forward now.

~Kimveri

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"You get what you accept."

"It is always wise to examine the facts from all angles before one renders a summary judgement."~_Marcus_

(in reply to SirEbonyPhoenix)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Second chances:give them or no way - 9/5/2007 4:38:13 AM   
feastie


Posts: 1793
Joined: 6/4/2004
Status: offline 		It depends on what happened the first time around.  For me, if there was lying or cheating involved, then it's a definite no.  Fool me once and all of that.  If it's just flaky behavior, probably not.  That said, depending on what the behavior was that broke up the relationship the first time, not at the very least exploring what could be a second time might well be missing out on something great.

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Snarky and loving it.

Disclaimer: Any views expressed in any post are my opinions only. They may or may not be yours.

(in reply to breatheasone)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Second chances:give them or no way - 9/5/2007 5:23:32 AM   
amelliagrace


Posts: 1792
Joined: 8/4/2007
Status: offline 		There is an old saying, "If' 'e'll do it twice, 'e'll do it thrice".  Relationships are so complex, that a policy of "once and your out" can be an excellent recipe for shortening relationships, even the ones which could have grown strong and gone the distance.
 
For me, the nature of the problem is a large part of deciding whether or not to give a second chance.  An act of outright abuse?  Probably not.  A serious misunderstanding leading to deep hurt?  Probably, if given time and space the attraction was still strong, and I could clearly see that the original misunderstanding lay in honest to goodness human error, and not maliciousness or vindictive selfishness.
 
I personally know of several high quality relationships on their second time around, just as I've seen second chances quickly fall apart.  Sadly, there are no hard and fast, rigid  rules that work well in cases like this.
 
Go with your best judgement, taking a cold hard look at the risks, benefits, and the changes to each of you over the last year.  I wish you well in your decision and relationships.
 
About forgiveness...Forgiveness is a totaly seperate issue from trying again.  IMNSHO, forgiveness giving isn't optional in life, if you want to lead a long and happy life, and not become someone that others detest being around.  It is not the same thing as allowing the offender to opportunity to do it again, nor is forgetting essential to the process.  If someone stabs you in a fit of anger, it is possible to forgive.  That doesn't mean you have to hand them a knife and let them have at you again.  It simply means you make a clear choice to let go of rancor, accept your part of the fault (if there was some).  I can cease to harbor hatred, or to wish someone ill, without being obligated to return to the same relationship we had, or for that matter, to even spend time in the same state.  Some things are impossible to forget, and shouldn't be, but slavery to hatred, anger, rancor, and bitterness is a self imposed sentence.  No one has to live there.
 
-grace

(in reply to SirEbonyPhoenix)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Second chances:give them or no way - 9/5/2007 7:44:36 AM   
ExSteelAgain


Posts: 1803
Joined: 7/2/2006
From: Georgia
Status: offline 		Everyone wants to answer because we have all been there on at least one of the sides. I forgave once and I’ve been on the short end more than once as we all have. The interesting thing is in the relationship where I forgave bad behavior, I felt confident and in charge of that relationship. She may have exhibited poor behavior, but it didn’t threaten my self confidence. If I had felt that the behavior was the consequence of a value judgment against me by her, more than stupidity, I would have pulled away much faster. I was more disappointed than threatened is my point.

To the OP, you now have the option of taking her back. So if she passes out fresh Domi-sandwiches to the board, to atone for her past bad behavior, why not?

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You can paint a cinder block bright pastel pink, but it's still a cinder block. (By Me.)

(in reply to amelliagrace)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Second chances:give them or no way - 9/5/2007 8:50:00 AM   
UR2Badored


Posts: 506
Joined: 2/3/2007
Status: offline 		fast reply~

Second chances can come around again as perfect timing and often with a broader understanding after reflection, further experiences, and growth.........Burning bridges is something I have come to avoid more and more as I get older.

< Message edited by UR2Badored -- 9/5/2007 8:57:55 AM >

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(in reply to ExSteelAgain)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Second chances:give them or no way - 9/13/2007 7:21:26 PM   
AtlantisKing111


Posts: 181
Joined: 1/14/2005
Status: offline 		Well spoken.  The underlying causes of the breakup will most likely cause another breakup if they have not been dealt with.

(in reply to MysticFireTopaz)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Second chances:give them or no way - 9/13/2007 8:11:03 PM   
phoenixsub999


Posts: 49
Joined: 11/17/2006
Status: offline 		Agreed. If you don't understand the cause, which is often not what it first appears to be, there can be no change. Even understanding the cause doesn't guarantee that the person can change the behavior that caused the breakup.

If I'm having a problem with someone and they keep apologizing, but the behavior is not changing, I begin to question their sincerity.

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When people show who they are, believe them...the first time -- Oprah

Wherever you are, be there totally -- Eckhart Tolle

(in reply to AtlantisKing111)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Second chances:give them or no way - 9/13/2007 9:47:27 PM   
heartcream


Posts: 3044
Joined: 5/9/2007
From: Psychoalphadiscobetabioaquadoloop
Status: offline 		if you and this person belong together truly you will be together. if you feel to go and be with her again, if that is your heart's desire i would encourage you to do so. if you were the only person in the whole world that would give someone another chance then you are a majority of one and have that right to be it.

as many have said, go with your feelings.

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"Exaggerate the essential, leave the obvious vague." Vincent Van Gogh

I'd Rather Be With You

Every single line means something.
Jean-Michel Basquiat



(in reply to phoenixsub999)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Second chances:give them or no way - 9/13/2007 9:50:14 PM   
AFlyInYourWeb


Posts: 284
Joined: 8/30/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SirEbonyPhoenix

If you were in a D/s relationship with someone who broke your heart, should you give them another chance or kick them to the curb?


I think it depends on what this past "misunderstanding" taught both you and the sub about your mutual "failure to communicate".  If you can honestly say that both of you are now measurably more aware of the importance of communication in your relationship, I'd give it one more try.

(in reply to SirEbonyPhoenix)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Second chances:give them or no way - 9/13/2007 9:55:00 PM   
SusanofO


Posts: 5672
Joined: 12/19/2005
Status: offline 		I've become, in the past few months, more assertive than I used to be.

There are people in my life who don't appear to appreciate this - but I guess I've "had it" with feeling used to propel some other people's agendas, especially if they repeatedly fail to live up to the standards they sometimes vehemently state they want (and expect) others to live by.

Anyone can make a mistake - I just don't intend to get myself involved with some personality-disordered Psycho, simply due to a lack of ability to stand up for myself. I'm not rude when I state this intent, just pretty clear.

If some other people can't handle it, it's not my job (anymore) to "rescue them from themselves".

I consider this to be true especially in the case of anyone proclaiming themselves to be a Dominant. Supposedly, they are setting themselves out there to be examples, and in many cases to be some kind of "Teacher". I'll let them do that - once I see evidence they can live up to their own standards, instead of just mouthing them (and IMO, there are people who can and do - live up to them. And also plenty of folks who just say they do, and apparently expect others to not look too closely at their behavior.)

Like I said - anyone can make a mistake; I am just less lenient than I used to be, re: People making them on a consistent basis, if they want to be a major part of my life, in the sense of letting them try to "lead me toward becoming a better person". 

God gave me a brain to use - and I am tired of pretending to be stupid, simply to salve someone else's ego - especially if they repeatedly are not willing to give me the same consideration.

Unless someone is an emotional masochist (and some peope are, which is fine, as far as being a "kink") - I just don't see much point in continuing to play along with anyone intending to be this "gamey". I spend a lot less money on aspirin for my own headaches, this way.

There is a distinct difference, IMO, between being "forgiving" and being stupid and self-destructive. Presumably - someone who truly does have "your best interests at heart" knows what that difference actually is. And fortunately for me, so do I.

- Susan  

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 9/13/2007 10:50:49 PM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to heartcream)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Second chances:give them or no way - 9/13/2007 11:27:46 PM   
velvetears


Posts: 2933
Joined: 6/19/2006
Status: offline 		The defining point in the op was "after a year". i think after that length of time i would have moved past the experience and more then likely just not want to chance putting myself back on square one again.  All that progress down the tubes. No thanks.

i think we know, on a deep gut level, when someone is right for us and when things will work and when they won't. What clouds that judgement is emotions - after a year away from them i would hope to have better judgement on how to handle myself and a much better perspective on what went wrong and look at it from a less detached position.

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Religion is for people who are scared of hell, Spirituality is for people who have been there

(in reply to SusanofO)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Second chances:give them or no way - 9/14/2007 12:49:49 AM   
julietsierra


Posts: 1841
Joined: 9/26/2004
Status: offline 		Heh. I don't see what being an emotional masochist has to do with this - the kind of emotional masochist that plays with and explores emotions that is - not the kind that involves themselves in hurt situation after hurt situation after hurt situation because they don't think. But anyway...

At any rate, I don't give chances. Chances infer that the people I'd give them to are always "on probation" so to speak. Giving chances mean that I'm just looking for the next "fuck up." And when I'm looking for the next "fuck up" I generally find it. Frankly, I find that after being hurt once, giving a second chance generally winds up being something that never works out. That's mostly because, to me, chances infer that I've not really made a decision to stay in the relationship and mostly, I'm waiting for the excuse to walk away, even as I've claimed I don't want to do that. 

On the other hand, I'm all for resolution. Resolving an issue, to me, means that whatever the situation, big or small, the two people have talked through it, feel comfortable with how their conversation has turned out, reach some sort of agreement and individually, feel as if they can move forward with that person. At that point, each (individually) decides if they can continue in that relationship, given the information at hand, or if they can't. It's not about continuing IF the OTHER person does this or that. It's about deciding what I can manage. If I decide that I can continue in the relationship, then I do, and all the doubts, fears, etc that naturally come with whatever the situation was are dealt with as they arise.

To me, this process happens both individually and as a unit. And it doesn't matter how big or how little the situation was that started this roller coaster. The process is the same: Discuss the situation.
Make sure you tell the other person about your concerns, anger, hurt AND fears.
Make sure you LISTEN to what's being told to you.
Talk through any misunderstandings.
Dig for deeper understanding.
Stay calm.
Don't insult (don't make the problem bigger than what it is by adding insults and all that to it).
Stay on topic (Whatever situation you have does not include every hurt moment from the time you met till the moment of the conversation.)
Work toward resolution, not determining who is "right."
Don't demand apologies. Frankly, if the situation is that big, you're generally not really going to believe them anyway, so don't demand them, and don't offer them unless you mean it. If apologies are going to happen, let them happen naturally.

Once EACH person feels they've been heard, and understood, then EACH makes the decision as to whether or  not they can continue on in the relationship - not that they can stay IF the other person can do what they need. That will become evident over time. After that, expect some difficulties and fears to arise from time to time - early on, quite often, but as time passes, less and less (usually in the middle of the night.) Although many will have a problem with this, deal with those feelings ON YOUR OWN.

Approach the relationship from the point of view that you've made a decision to continue on in it and do what you've decided. However, give yourself permission to walk away if you find that the resolution you thought you could live with is or becomes unworkable - note, I didn't say if the other person "fucks up". To me, deciding to stay in a relationship is a personal thing - not contingent on what the other person says or does. Ultimately, I have to make the decision whether or not to stay or go, so the responsibility falls on me to determine what I need and if I'm getting it or not.

Ultimately, what I've found happens with the mindset that I'm in charge of my own decisions as to how I'm living my life is that I am MORE empowered, MORE dedicated, MORE in tune with the person I'm with and the relationship we have. And my "broken heart" becomes my responsibility to nurse back to health - not his, which I like very much. If things don't work out, I'm also not of the camp that calls ME the fool for what HE couldn't manage. To me, that person just didn't work out, but I gave it the best shot I could. And that's all anyone should expect from themselves, or anyone else for that matter. (Besides, it also saves time in the game of self-recrimination that everyone seems to go through when they break up.)

Above all, what this approach seems to do is take away the weapon of trust. Trust can be a beautiful thing, but it can also be a weapon. How many have said "BUT I TRUSTED YOU!!" in the middle of an argument? It is a lament and a weapon when used this way - an accusation not an attempt to work through whatever has happened. When using the approach we use in our discussions, "trust" is never what's discussed. What IS discussed is the actual situation - without accusations of trust being broken. I mean seriously! Trust isn't the problem The situation is the problem. Deal with that honestly and effectively, and trust becomes a non-issue, a moot weapon. I'm simply deciding what *I* can do, and living my life accordingly. In our lives, "living my life accordingly," even after a potentially catastrophic situation has meant living it with him in it.

He's going to be exactly who he is. I'm going to be exactly who I am and given that, no matter what has transpired, or what errors in judgment either of us have made, we've stayed together - not because of chance, but because we've decided that we still wanted to be together.

But we've NEVER given each other a second chance.
 
juliet

(in reply to velvetears)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Second chances:give them or no way - 9/14/2007 1:03:25 AM   
SusanofO


Posts: 5672
Joined: 12/19/2005
Status: offline 		I've just "had it" with defensive Dominants that can't seem to see past their own nose, when it comes to personal interactions with others, particularly submssives. I hate to say it, but I've seen this kind of thing play out on these message boards on more than a few threads. I don't consider it to be mature, or particularly enlightened behavior (although there appear to be plenty of mature Doms here too, IMO).

At the same time, presumably, some claim to be able to look out for my (or others') welfare. IMO, it's one thing to mis-understand someone's intent in a post (or even several posts, although even then, people always have the option of clarifying someone's intent, if there is some doubt about it), or in day-to-day life re: Tasks, or one or two conversations.

It's quite another IMO, to use a submissive in some ongoing head-game, that involves a Dominant continually mis-understanding a submissive's good intentions, simply because it might be more "Macho" for the Dominant to not admit they could be wrong - or to presume a submissive is being "dis-respectful", vs. being honest and having good intentions (when a Dominant has little or no objective reason to doubt a submissive's intentions), because it makes them seem (to themselves) more "in charge"'. That kind of interaction is complete BS (to me).

I don't think people change all that easily, unless they have a really good reason to have to do it.

I am weary of people (especially Dominants) who for whatever reason, find it difficult to give their partner the benefit of a doubt - but will claim to want the same treatment in return -especially when it's been made clear a submissive has a nuetral, or good intent.

For me, this can speak to me of someone who will be difficult to get along with on any continuing basis, and therefore might be as detrimental to my welfare, at least as much as they might be good for it. IMO, it does nothing to increase my trust in them.

IMO, people (especially Dominants) who truly are anywhere near able to "have your best interests at heart" are also able to be honest with themselves, and don't play these kinds of head-games with submissives (or people in general), at least on any on-going basis.

But some people either can't recognize when someone is prone to this behavior, or else they've become so used to it as a mode of interaction, that is seems normal to them, despite any detrimental effect it might have on their emotional health or personal growth. 

It's a personal decision, IMO, just how addicted anyone wants to become, to the drama that can result in personal relationships, due to this phenomenon. It doesn't aways happen, but IMO it probably happens more than it needs to happen.

People can do whatever they want - they just can't drag me along for the ride, unless I make a conscious effort to sign up for it.

- Susan  

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 9/14/2007 1:50:11 AM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to julietsierra)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Second chances:give them or no way - 9/14/2007 1:09:45 AM   
julietsierra


Posts: 1841
Joined: 9/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

I gues I've just had it with defensive Dominants that can't seem to see past their own nose, when it comes to personal nteractions with others, particularly submssives. I hate to say it, but I've seen this play out on these message boards on more than a few threads. I don't consider it to be mature, or particularly enlightened behavior.

At the same time, presumably, some claim to be able to look out for my welfare. Hmmm. IMO, it's one thing to mis-understand someone's intent in a post (or even several posts). It's quite another IMO, to use a submissive in some ongoing head-game that involves a Dominant continually mis-understanding a submissive's good intentions, simply because it might be more "Macho" for the Dominant to not be able to admit they could be wrong - and be willing to do something about it, or to presume a submissive is being "dis-respectful", vs. honest and having a good intent.

I am weary of people who for whatever reason, find it difficult to give thier partner the benefit of a doubt - but claim to want the same treatment in return -especially when it's been made clear a submissive has a nuetral, or good intent. This can speak to me of someone who will be difficult to get along with on any continuing basis, and might be as detrimental to my welfare, at least as much as they might be good for it. IMO it does nothing to increase my trust in them.

IMO, people (especially Dominants) who truly are anywhere near able to "have your best interests at heart" are also able to be honest with themselves, and don't play these kinds of head-games with submissives (or people in general), at least on any on-going basis.

But some people either can't recognize when someone is prone to this behavior, or else they've become so used to it as a mode of interaction, that is seems normal to them, despite any detrimental effect it might have on their emotional health or personal growth. 

It's a personal decision, IMO, just how addicted anyone wants to become, to the drama that can result in personal relationships, due to this phenomenon.

- Susan  


Umm... I have NO idea what you're going on about and how it fits in with the concept of giving second chances.

juliet

(in reply to SusanofO)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Second chances:give them or no way - 9/14/2007 1:15:34 AM   
SusanofO


Posts: 5672
Joined: 12/19/2005
Status: offline 		I thought it was pretty apparent - I don't give them easily. There are simply too many other people on the planet I could partner with. I consider giving them (in most cases) to be an exercise in emotional masochism, unless I've seen (or a friend I may be looking out for, or who has asked me for advice) has seen clear and long-term evidence (from a distance first, not on some "trial relationship" basis) that the other person has changed. I am speaking of someone I've already had a partner relationship with (or a friend has) - not someone I might not know well at all, or just be casual friends with.

However, I do see indicators all the time that an indicate to me whether someone might make a good partner (or not). The ability to admit when one is wrong is (to me) a very strong indicator of this. So is an adult ability to presume nuetral or good intent (unless distinctly proven otherwise) vs. bad intent, on the part of a submissive, re: Just about any interaction - unless (as I said) the Dominant has good reason to doubt them (that doesn't have to do with the Dominant having some personality disorder). For me this has to do with maturity, more than anything. 

Some people just go from one bad relationship to the next - I don't intend to be one of those people. Some people seem to make it a life-time career; I am not going to be one of those people.

- Susan 

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 9/14/2007 1:59:16 AM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to julietsierra)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Second chances:give them or no way - 9/14/2007 3:51:16 AM   
ExSteelAgain


Posts: 1803
Joined: 7/2/2006
From: Georgia
Status: offline 		Susan, you make some good points. If the Dominant is to really be in control and desired by the submissive, he will do far better not playing up his control at every imagined slight. Human nature is going to make the submissive work harder for a Dominant who is not trying to dictate her every move in regards to what she does to indicate her loyalty to him. It has to come naturally.

_____________________________

You can paint a cinder block bright pastel pink, but it's still a cinder block. (By Me.)

(in reply to SusanofO)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Second chances:give them or no way - 9/14/2007 3:57:32 AM   
SusanofO


Posts: 5672
Joined: 12/19/2005
Status: offline 		Thanks. I wasn't trying to diss Dominants (I see plenty of whom I consider mature Dominants around). I am also not opposed to things like very pains-taking obedience training, etc - the thing here is - both people  have agreed  it's their consensual "kink", and it turns them on, even if there is definitely a power-exchange within the interaction, as far as determining how long, when, what, etc.

I've seen a few submissives become convinced that any and all kinds of punishment at the Dominant's whim is just how D/s is supposed to be - and it can be, I suppose -with a Dominant continually second-guessing your intentions, and punishing you, because "they can".

I know I'll be punished if I intentionally disregard what a Dominant of mine wants from me (and certainly wouldn't strongly object, even though I might not like the punishment) - as long as it's a fair punishment - not one that's a result of presumed bad intent or actions on my part, that has little basis in a realistic assessment of what has been agreed upon, as far as what a Dominant has explicitly stated are their expectations. Yeah, they can go ahead and punish a sub, based on their bad mood, or whim all the time, whether it's fair or not - and the submissive can also walk away (and more than a few have, I am guessing).

Presumably people have discussed what is to be thought of as "respectful behavior" in any negotiations (which can also be on-going, within limits, IMO)- but I also agree w/julietsierra, from the standpoint that I think if there is some doubt as far as expectations, it can pay to communicate, and try to work things out, and not just give up at the first sign of trouble, or blame someone else automatically, just because you don't want to look at your own contribution to whatever problem might exist.

On the other hand, IMO, there are situations where either partner definitely might be being what I term as pretty consistently  "gamey" - and I tend to believe I can live without that in my life. Some people apparently love it (and I suppose it can be subjective, as far as interpretation of whether it exists in a relationship)-and to each their own -but overall,  I'm just not one of those people who appreciates it, or considers it a "turn on".

IMO, if two people's perceptions of whether "gaminess" exists or not, in their relationship is so far apart, then I question why they are together in the first place, unless they love the drama of continually fighting and (supposedly) "making up". But I tend to be a peacelover. I don't think being one necessarily needs to interfere with how often anyone gets to "be kinky" in their relationship, as far as BDSM activity; how often activity takes place, and is negotiated, is up to the people involved. But I prefer expectations (on either side) to be overt, rather than covert. 

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 9/14/2007 4:43:31 AM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to ExSteelAgain)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Second chances:give them or no way - 9/14/2007 6:44:11 AM   
came4U


Posts: 3572
Joined: 1/23/2007
From: London, Ontario
Status: offline 		Once a guy f*cks up, I wash my hands of em. No patience for crap anymore.  Life is too short and too many other fish in the sea.

(in reply to SusanofO)
Profile   Post #: 59
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