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RE: Spirituality and BDSM - 9/5/2007 6:37:37 PM   
Bobkgin


Posts: 1335
Joined: 7/28/2007
From: Kawarthas, Ontario, Canada
Status: offline 		Stephan, I agree with you that "God" (the Great Spirit, Gaia, etc) is at the end of many paths.

Do you believe they all stem from a common source known to our prehistoric human ancestors and has since mutated into the various belief systems we have today?

Or do you believe this spirit/god is constantly being re-discovered and described in terminology relevant to the times?

Or something else?


_____________________________

When all is said and done, what will you regret?

That you never really lived?

Or there was so much living left to do?

For those interested: pics and poetry have been added to my profile.

(in reply to Stephann)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Spirituality and BDSM - 9/5/2007 6:46:15 PM   
WinsomeDefiance


Posts: 6719
Joined: 8/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin
Winsome, I believe I've seen you mention "other religions" before, but have only mentioned Buddhism specifically.

Can you tell us what you've gained from these "other religions" that has contributed to your cornerstone?


It would be hard, really, to separate my spiritual truths from my life experiences.  Without taking you down what would probably be a boring time-line, and relating those experiences to the spiritual truths that guided me, I'm not sure I'd be able to adequately express them.  I'll spare you, and anyone else, the agony of reading my resume


(in reply to Bobkgin)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Spirituality and BDSM - 9/5/2007 7:37:14 PM   
LATEXBABY64


Posts: 2107
Joined: 4/8/2004
Status: offline 		it hard to discribe what spiritual essance is to many. because it is a very personal walk that each of us take. I do know there are other forces at work. I do know that there are things i do not have answers for that i have seen..

(in reply to WinsomeDefiance)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Spirituality and BDSM - 9/5/2007 7:42:05 PM   
RRafe


Posts: 2060
Joined: 8/29/2007
Status: offline 		I think  a lot of people confuse intimacy and endorphin highs with spirituality.

(in reply to Bobkgin)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Spirituality and BDSM - 9/5/2007 8:04:20 PM   
Satyr6406


Posts: 820
Joined: 3/27/2006
From: New Brunswick, N.J.
Status: offline 		I have some very definite, ever-evolving religious/spiritual beliefs. I believe that this system of beliefs make me the person that I am so, they play HEAVILY upon how I interact with all people but, especially in my relationship with my submissive(s).
 
In my profile it states that any submissive that wishes to be a part of my life has to have some sort of spiritual belief system. I don't particularly care what it is, as long as there is room for tolerence (and maybe, even incorporation) of mine. But, a belief system must be in place.
 
I think, in this lifestyle, as well as in life, in general, people with some kind of moral code are the ones I wish to surround myself with and those that don't have that moral code ... well ... I am, currently, without a submissive in my life. 'Nuff said?
 
 
 
 
 
Peace and comfort,
 
 
 
 
 
Michael

_____________________________

Peace and comfort,


Michael

Former Vice-President Gore didn't invent the internet but, he DID make up global warming!

(in reply to RRafe)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Spirituality and BDSM - 9/5/2007 8:26:05 PM   
dawntreader


Posts: 3045
Joined: 11/23/2006
Status: offline 		For me, my spiritual path and my submissive path have become an entertwined journey of service and exploration. They both combine into what i refer to as my road to transparency, enlightenment and surrender. There are aspects of BDSM that enhance this for me but it is as a side aspect~

_____________________________

It is choice - not chance - that determines our destiny~
Jean Nidetch

There is a war going on for your mind...if you are thinking, you are winning~
Flobots

(in reply to Satyr6406)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Spirituality and BDSM - 9/5/2007 8:29:14 PM   
iammachine


Posts: 1549
Joined: 1/25/2006
Status: offline 		I would consider myself to be agnostic. Clearly, I don't have a belief system that influences my play. However, I don't think that my play is entirely devoid of spirituality. At least for me, the extent of my spiritual experience is... kind of meditative. So, the somewhat altered states that I may experience in play, to me, can be rather spiritual. 

_____________________________

I still hear you scream... in every breath, every single motion

(in reply to Bobkgin)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Spirituality and BDSM - 9/5/2007 8:31:33 PM   
MzMia


Posts: 5333
Joined: 7/30/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Satyr6406

I have some very definite, ever-evolving religious/spiritual beliefs. I believe that this system of beliefs make me the person that I am so, they play HEAVILY upon how I interact with all people but, especially in my relationship with my submissive(s).
 
In my profile it states that any submissive that wishes to be a part of my life has to have some sort of spiritual belief system. I don't particularly care what it is, as long as there is room for tolerence (and maybe, even incorporation) of mine. But, a belief system must be in place.
 
I think, in this lifestyle, as well as in life, in general, people with some kind of moral code are the ones I wish to surround myself with and those that don't have that moral code ... well ... I am, currently, without a submissive in my life. 'Nuff said?
  
Peace and comfort, 
 
Michael


Very well stated Michael.
My spirtuality is linked to everything I am, it is who I am.
I can not separate it from my inner core any more than I can sever my hand.
If I am not my spirit, my soul, my beliefs, my values and my spirituality, WHO am I?

< Message edited by MzMia -- 9/5/2007 8:32:53 PM >

_____________________________

Namaste'
To Each His/Her Own
"DENIAL ain't just a river in Egypt." Mark Twain


What's your favorite fetish?
"My partner's whisper"--bloomswell

(in reply to Satyr6406)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Spirituality and BDSM - 9/5/2007 8:52:03 PM   
e01n


Posts: 1472
Status: offline 		Bob skipped my post for comment.

I'm not sure whether to be glad or saddened...

(in reply to MzMia)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Spirituality and BDSM - 9/5/2007 10:58:03 PM   
sublizzie


Posts: 1252
Joined: 5/26/2004
Status: offline 		As I have explored WIIWD with people from many different spiritual backgrounds I've broadened my own spiritual understanding. I've come to realize that the spiritual energy I've been using all of my life is the same, or very similar, to the energy that is exchanged in the D/s and S&M experiences I've had with people from a different spiritual perspective. Through those energy exchanges my view of different spiritual paths has had to alter into something more encompassing than what I started with.

Just my thoughts.......

_____________________________

"cooking is my kink"

Collared June 19, 2008
(uncollared 12/21/09 with his death. RIP my Santa)

(in reply to Bobkgin)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Spirituality and BDSM - 9/5/2007 11:02:12 PM   
chellekitty


Posts: 3923
Joined: 3/27/2005
Status: offline 		this is an interesting topic for me...started a World Religion class last week, but was really busy last week so i attened the first class yesterday...and on the information card the Prof asks us to fill out she asks us to tell her our "childhood" religion...well i took a little liberties and went with what i claimed or was saddle with up to 18 years old...started life as a catholic...then did none for a while...started exploring and found wicca...eclectic paganism...agnosticism..atheism...fundementalistic christianity...around 18 i settled on spiritual, not religious...it is only in the past 6 or 7 months that i have found comfort in the rituals of religion...i still don't claim to be religious...there is a saying i go by...religion is for people who are afraid to go to hell, spirituality is for those who have been to hell...i've been to hell...been spiritually dead, many times over...i think i have been physically dead...i don't remember...no one will tell me...it was too traumatic for them...there was no white light for me...just really good rest...and that makes me sad to think about...cause even with the two times before, i have said, i just want to sleep...anyway....
how does that relate to bdsm?  i have tried relationships with people that did not share my spiritual beliefs...and it just doesn't work...i can't compromise on that...plain and simple...i can't even compromise on that in my friendships...if i find out a friend's spiritual belief or lack there of allows them to go through with something that fundementally goes against something i believe in...i have to step back from the relationship and distance myself from them so that i don't find myself forming resentments...because i would rather be a resentment than have one...how can i have that kind of difference in something deeper than a friendship like a power exchange relationship?
but thats just me...not asking anyone else to do it...i am the only one that has to live in my head...but i do have to live in my head....
chellle...

(in reply to e01n)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Spirituality and BDSM - 9/5/2007 11:11:36 PM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RRafe

I think  a lot of people confuse intimacy and endorphin highs with spirituality.


Or with therapy, or magical solutions to real life problems.

BDSM isn't a path, a cure, a philosophy, a rescue, a higher calling, or  the mark of a superior being, it is simply...  WIITWD

(in reply to RRafe)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Spirituality and BDSM - 9/5/2007 11:20:50 PM   
velvetears


Posts: 2933
Joined: 6/19/2006
Status: offline 		my spirituality is like the lens through which i view everything in life.  It is what makes me who i am, what i value, how i respond, how i think, what i connect with and attract, how and what i choose - how can that not affect my bdsm involvement? 

_____________________________

Religion is for people who are scared of hell, Spirituality is for people who have been there

(in reply to sublizzie)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Spirituality and BDSM - 9/5/2007 11:29:03 PM   
RRafe


Posts: 2060
Joined: 8/29/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

quote:

ORIGINAL: RRafe

I think  a lot of people confuse intimacy and endorphin highs with spirituality.


Or with therapy, or magical solutions to real life problems.

BDSM isn't a path, a cure, a philosophy, a rescue, a higher calling, or  the mark of a superior being, it is simply...  WIITWD


Which is why I steadfastly refuse to rank it any higher than "entertainment."

(in reply to Alumbrado)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Spirituality and BDSM - 9/5/2007 11:35:50 PM   
CuriousLord


Posts: 3911
Joined: 4/3/2007
Status: offline 		I gave up my Catholism about two or three years before starting the D/s lifestyle.  I often wonder, though.. how odd it would feel to be a lesser power, to be a lesser power before my slave than the Christ or the God.

In a way, Christians are subs to their hypothetical God.  I understand that tops would have little problem being a sub to another, but.. the stark contrast between being entirely submissive to a God while being Dominant to another, ruled by this God, yet not gifted by this God.. this strikes me as a contradiction.

As many likely are well aware, I have more than mild reservations about religion itself.  Beyond this, though, I haven't concluded that one can not be both a Dom and a Christian (or similar religion); I just find the combination to be odd and difficult to reconcile (as the God will always be above the Dom).

For religions which have no "God"-type figure, I see less difficulties.  Such as, Aswad, if you don't mind me using an example concerning you- I can tell how Aswad would be able to adhere to the tenants of his belief system (or, rather, I can't see any difficulties, though I won't claim to be fully educated on the entirety of such).  Religions which embrace elemental, spiritual, or other similar type of belief- but not the praise of higher beings/powers to which devotees are to be subjugated to- seem to lack the complication I see with the Christian/BDSM combination.

I find being able to act in something with a sub contributes to the relationship.  I can see a common interest in spirtuality as a possible means to such common ground.

It would be interesting to see how Christian couple reconcile the complication.  (To me, it seems that the Dom might take a position similar to an alpha slave- in control of his slaves, but still absolutely submissive to the Master, or God.)  I can see some Christians being alright with being submissive to the hypothetical God.  After all, he's supposed to be the eternal ultimate power of creation.

(in reply to Bobkgin)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Spirituality and BDSM - 9/5/2007 11:56:16 PM   
SmokingGun82


Posts: 575
Joined: 6/19/2004
Status: offline 		Since there really hasn't been any atheist input on this one, and even though my personal beliefs are something I usually try to avoid discussing...

I'm not an atheist. I was an atheist when I was around twelve. By the time I was eightteen I'd moved past atheism- I believe there is no god/goddess/etcetera. Atheism is disbelief- I'm all about belief. It's a subtle difference, but it's important to me, and it's not something I've waivered on.

I'm also not spiritual, either. Whether you call it karma or whatever, I'll call it superstitious nonsense, as politely as I can, and only if pressed.

So to me, there's no connection between BDSM and spirituality. That doesn't mean I don't feel a connection when I'm with someone- I do, but it's not a connection that has anything to do with other worldly things. It's a connection between two people enjoying a fleeting life on a ball of dirt spinning around a big ol' fire. I don't think that makes it any less meaningful, or any less fulfilling. Which can kind of be a metaphor for my outlook on life- I don't think the lack of a god/goddess or anything of that nature makes my life less meaningful. To quote Penn Jillette: "I have love, blue skies, rainbows and Hallmark cards, and that has to be enough. It has to be enough, but it's everything in the world and everything in the world is plenty for me."

I've tried hard to avoid offending anyone- if I've failed, please accept my apologies and know that was not my intention.
M.


_____________________________

It frightens me, the awful truth of how sweet life can be.
- Bob Dylan

Proper capitalization is the difference between "I had to help my Uncle Jack off a horse" and "I had to help my uncle jack off a horse."

(in reply to CuriousLord)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Spirituality and BDSM - 9/6/2007 12:28:20 AM   
Perplex


Posts: 110
Joined: 8/27/2007
Status: offline 		Religious esctasy, for those who have never seen it, is very much like the endorfin high which comes from a scene.  It is rare in the states anymore to see true "spiritual esctasy" simply cuz we have moved inot more urban venues of worship..and away from the ferver of the little churchs* which seems to breed it more often.

I did tent revival for nearly ten years, you can smell the religion after a certain point in the night, the same way you can smell "it" at a scene party that is going extremely well.  So there is some sort of hormonal similarity between what can be extreme spirituality and extreme sensuality.  which is one of the reasons there are so many similarities ebtween the people on both paths imo, simple answer: they are looking for that high...more complex answer is they are each seekign something greater within themselves than the mundane world can give them.

For myself there are only similarity of action, in both places, spiritual worship and sexual adventure, I keep to responsilbilty of action, awareness of what is goign on around me and try not to let any of those little hidden gems of life go unnoticed...which is crunchy head for I try to keep my head out of my ass in either case. 

*I used the word church...its probably a misnomer, temple, circle, grove, masque would have also all worked as descrpitives it is about the intimacy of the gathered not the tenants of the faith to which I spoke. 

(in reply to SmokingGun82)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Spirituality and BDSM - 9/6/2007 2:27:08 AM   
Prinsexx


Posts: 4584
Joined: 8/27/2007
Status: offline 		Fabulous that this thread has been started.....I am a multiplicity of selves each of which realtes to a different spiritual path. None has precedence over the other as all consciouness is a fragment of the beilief function of the ego.
So i am; Buddhist, Christain, Pagan, Atheist, Spiritualist Medium depending upon which is predominant at that time.
Also: when in subspace my spirituality reflects my Master's. Why would it not?

(in reply to Bobkgin)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Spirituality and BDSM - 9/6/2007 2:50:04 AM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

A lot of meat on those 'bare bones'.

If you are willing, I hope you'll illuminate the above quote.


Bear in mind that I'm still sorting out the implications and details myself, so this may not be representative of the final result. It still deals with the fundamental assumption that free will was the ultimate gift in the course of creation, but firmly establishes a natural (and apparently universal) spiritual path, along with addressing certain fundamental human needs in regard to power dynamics and their role in interpersonal relationships and romance. As viewed from without, more personal and liberal than Catholic doctrine and praxis, but equally "high church". As viewed from within, it corrects the mistakes in the horizontal transmission by reverting to vertical transmission and a living tradition that has been derived from that, and establishes a new Covenant. It also describes the way toward a diverse but homogenous praxis that covers all the needs covered by current Abrahamic churches, and a possible point of convergence for efforts to further acceptance of human sexual and interpersonal diversity. At the same time, it recognizes some major shortcomings of modern society, and rejects its secularization along with the modern tendency toward statism as an implicit religion.

That doesn't really describe it very well, but if you're familiar with Abrahamic theology, and have experienced sa/satori as well as temporary nibbana/mushin/fudoshin, along with some evolutionary psychology, then you should have the grounds to derive the bulk of the seed thoughts from what I have said here. If not, feel free to PM me for more.

Some of the implications are such that I'm not comfortable discussing it publicly until I have finished the work I am currently doing, the reasons for which are probably clear to those I have discussed it with in private. When I am done, I will probably post a rather extensive piece on it on CM. My apologies for the brevity on this thread.

It has been my observation that most who follow Abrahamic faiths and practice BDSM at the same time, have frequently neglected to fully integrate their practices with their faith, leaving it at "it is okay", without following the mutual implications between this assertion and their faith. Which is quite fine, but does not (IMHO) realize the full potential associated with how BDSM is an intrinsic element of the faith as is, and how it fits with the full spiritual, mental and physical realization of human potential. I found the place for BDSM/religion in relation to both the masses and the spiritual people, and think this new approach will add value to the lives of those who wish to participate.

At the moment, though, there is a lot to sort out. Not everyone gets burning bushes, visions or angels delivering a full list of precepts and tenets right into their laps. Some have to make do with mere revelation, and take it from there. Though, of course, I'll be only too happy to let you know if my fire-extinguisher fails to put out my banzai tree.



_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to Bobkgin)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Spirituality and BDSM - 9/6/2007 2:52:51 AM   
Cyntilating


Posts: 581
Joined: 6/19/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

Quoting a previous post I made on this topic:




For me, as a follower of a personal path derived from Abrahamic religion, Shinto, pre-Meiji era Bushido, Gnostic and Zoroastric beliefs, it is my belief that free will is the ultimate gift we have been given. In this sense, there is no higher gesture than to subordinate one's own will to that of another, and no greater support than aligning one's own will with that of another. Submission and slavery both become sacred institutions, the unequivocal relationship becomes something divine, and the acts that reaffirm this subordination are sacraments in their own right.

Without dragging a lot of quotes into the matter, it is also possible to introduce a proxy element, but I am not comfortable with that for some reason, at least not beyond the point made that "by serving your master, you are serving me". Of course, in a Gnostic sense, one can take it as a matter of freeing the spirit by enslaving the flesh, but that isn't quite in line with my thinking at the moment.

The trappings can also be put in a context of this sort, with the mortification of the flesh coming to mind as an example.

In any case, I also wrote something on the analogy to animism and related nature religions.

I will repeat it here, with minimal redaction:

We are the Shamans.

The ones who, by those means we choose, delve into things others dare not.
The ones who embrace the ecstacies one can lose oneself in yet still retain control.
The ones who touch our primal side to bring forth experiences that transcend the mundane.

And we come out unscathed, indeed born anew, each time we stride deeper into the unknown halls of our minds.


There's a lot to be said about this topic, and it seems sad to leave it at this, but I'm afraid there are too many thoughts to gather and form into a coherent post on the subject for me, so I've confined myself to scratching the surface, although I'm happy to address specific subtopics. And I hope others will continue to add more about their own views. It's one of the most interesting elements for me, at least.




Since that time, I've had an epiphany (some might say a revelation) that has taken me off on a radical tangent to my former views, which will hopefully condense in a manner that may be useful to others, although it may be unpalatable to conservative Abrahamic religions, as it derives from that tradition under a very different interpretation.




Thanks for posting this...
I have never heard of Gnostic and Zoroastric ...Your post is compelling in its description and quotes...I will be researching this further...
"Shaman" term ,admittedly, made me read deeper and is something I can relate to in my own spirituality and beliefs..
 

 

_____________________________

Cyndi

.."There are two ways of spreading light: to be the candle or the mirror that reflects it. " Edith Wharton

(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 40
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