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RE: Whips and 'Accidents' - 9/7/2007 9:57:40 AM   
BoiJen


Posts: 2608
Joined: 3/7/2007
Status: offline 		I haven't met anyone who's lost an eye or hand an ear ripped off. And I don't think anyone's mentioned such accidents here yet. I could be wrong as I held off posting on this thread for a bit. Let's not get crazy here.

I prefer the term top as I'm not a Dominant and I hit people for my own jerk off material all the time and I happen to know Dominants that like to be hit. Technicalities and all.

I definately consider a "whoops" with a flogger much more dangerous than a "whoops" with a singletail. Plain and simple. A "whoops" with a flogger can lead to knocking the wind out of an asthmatic or breaking a bone or causing serious internal bruising. A 'whoops" with a singletail is most likely gonna be a welt. And I've had my own share "whoops" with both of those. The "whoops" with the singletail the bottom didn't even notice other than it landed heavier than the other strikes (I accidently missed a step in changing a position and leaned in) and the "whoops" with the flogger got me "stop that damnit or I'll get your ass when I get down from here" and left a considerable bruise.

(in reply to amelliagrace)
Profile   Post #: 61
RE: Whips and 'Accidents' - 9/7/2007 9:58:35 AM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BoiJen

You're also assuming what is considered "serious injury." Everyone here is. Cuts that leave scars are way common. Scars are not caused by the severity of a cut...but by how tight the skin is in that particular area, how "jagged" the "cut" is, meaning that if the skin is torn it's more likely to scar rather than a cut from a scalpel. And everybody heals differently. People only have to cut through a very few layers of skin to bleed. And "deep" cuts are determined by the thickness of skin in the area. Just because someone is bleeding "alot" doesn't mean that it's a serious injury. Advil and other blood thinners cause easy bleeding. If you ate anything with garlic in it prior to a scene you're likely to bleed more.

"I've seen people with X injury...ohhh singletails are damnergous"...bullshit. Every toy is a weapon and dangerous at the same standards there. And if anybody has a question as to why I say this then personally drop me a line. I DO teach a class called "5 minutes to singletails" and "Exhibitionist Singletails" And I teach the class with a reason and get asked to teach it for a reason. I know my toys.

'Sides I tore the shit outta someone who's just itching to get it again. Someone's pansy ass "major injury" is another person's (masochist's) "good time"



You know, I would have been much more impressed with the level of your maturity had you simply come back to say that you had made an erroneous statement. I asked you for clarification on the statement you made that it was IMPOSSIBLE to cut someone seriously with a whip. You even told one person who talked of an injury that you could PROMISE them that the injury didn't come from the whip itself and must have picked up something in the air. Instead of simply answering the question or giving the reasons you feel the way you do, you chose to come back at me with snarky, in my face comments implying that I obviously have no real time experience and was talking out my ass. Now here you are trying to qualify what a "serious" cut is, as though that will somehow justify your original statement.

There have been a good number of folks here now who have told of their own personal experiences related to whip injuries. Are you saying we are all "pansy asses"? Or maybe you think we conjured these incidents up in our minds or saw them on tv? I don't remember ever saying that there aren't people who want to be injured in exactly that way, who get off and thrive on exactly that....I was addressing the statement you made that said it was impossible that further went on to discount the need for any considerable instruction or practice by someone who is new to the use of whips.



_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to BoiJen)
Profile   Post #: 62
RE: Whips and 'Accidents' - 9/7/2007 10:00:06 AM   
BoiJen


Posts: 2608
Joined: 3/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble


Citation, please? I'd like to read the source for these facts myself. I have a vested interested in such because of my hard-core penchant for rope bondage. Thanks in advance,

Celeste


Please message me personally. Or I'll forget to find my source for you tomorrow when I have more time. Thank you :)

(in reply to BitaTruble)
Profile   Post #: 63
RE: Whips and 'Accidents' - 9/7/2007 10:00:41 AM   
AquaticSub


Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BoiJen

I haven't met anyone who's lost an eye or hand an ear ripped off. And I don't think anyone's mentioned such accidents here yet. I could be wrong as I held off posting on this thread for a bit. Let's not get crazy here.

Someone mentioned a horse losing an eye from a whip. Human eyes are not any stronger.

Just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean it hasn't happened. I haven't seen anyone die from an infected toe, but I know that it has happened.
quote:


I definately consider a "whoops" with a flogger much more dangerous than a "whoops" with a singletail. Plain and simple. A "whoops" with a flogger can lead to knocking the wind out of an asthmatic or breaking a bone or causing serious internal bruising. A 'whoops" with a singletail is most likely gonna be a welt. And I've had my own share "whoops" with both of those. The "whoops" with the singletail the bottom didn't even notice other than it landed heavier than the other strikes (I accidently missed a step in changing a position and leaned in) and the "whoops" with the flogger got me "stop that damnit or I'll get your ass when I get down from here" and left a considerable bruise.



This a lot different than the attitude of "people heal, toys don't".

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to BoiJen)
Profile   Post #: 64
RE: Whips and 'Accidents' - 9/7/2007 10:02:16 AM   
DarkDaddyZ


Posts: 805
Joined: 4/7/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

It does amuse me how the modern het kinky crowd hates dirty/wet/nasty and wants all their "dark kink" play to be sanitized and fresh vs the homo crowd, specially older homo crowd where dirt and mess was part and partial of the kinky scene itself.

Off topic to LA:

I hear you big time!  Though it's not about whips and accidents (and I'm far from religious) my first dirty nasty scene as a bottom I was a little nervous, scared and excited and the woman I was bottoming to said simply:
"God made dirty and dirty don't hurt"
I always keep that in mind.
Back your regularly scheduled programing (I'm so behind!)

_____________________________

"Flirting is part of the job description." DJ Jesus (Lucy Daughter Of The Devil)

Vanilla Official Music Page http://www.myspace.com/djzulu

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 65
RE: Whips and 'Accidents' - 9/7/2007 10:03:08 AM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BoiJen

I haven't met anyone who's lost an eye or hand an ear ripped off. And I don't think anyone's mentioned such accidents here yet. I could be wrong as I held off posting on this thread for a bit. Let's not get crazy here.

I prefer the term top as I'm not a Dominant and I hit people for my own jerk off material all the time and I happen to know Dominants that like to be hit. Technicalities and all.

I definately consider a "whoops" with a flogger much more dangerous than a "whoops" with a singletail. Plain and simple. A "whoops" with a flogger can lead to knocking the wind out of an asthmatic or breaking a bone or causing serious internal bruising. A 'whoops" with a singletail is most likely gonna be a welt. And I've had my own share "whoops" with both of those. The "whoops" with the singletail the bottom didn't even notice other than it landed heavier than the other strikes (I accidently missed a step in changing a position and leaned in) and the "whoops" with the flogger got me "stop that damnit or I'll get your ass when I get down from here" and left a considerable bruise.



Have you read the thread? People have indeed related the injuries you have mentioned. There is also a link in this thread to the site of one of the most respected whip Masters, Robert Dante, that explains the injuries that can result from improper use or accidents with a whip. They include serious lacerations and broken bones.



_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to BoiJen)
Profile   Post #: 66
RE: Whips and 'Accidents' - 9/7/2007 10:08:51 AM   
amelliagrace


Posts: 1792
Joined: 8/4/2007
Status: offline 		Perhaps you should actually consider reading this thread.
 
-grace

(in reply to BoiJen)
Profile   Post #: 67
RE: Whips and 'Accidents' - 9/7/2007 10:13:15 AM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BoiJen



Please message me personally. Or I'll forget to find my source for you tomorrow when I have more time. Thank you :)



Tomorrow's fine. I'm in no hurry.

Thanks BoiJen.

Celeste

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


(in reply to BoiJen)
Profile   Post #: 68
RE: Whips and 'Accidents' - 9/7/2007 10:25:08 AM   
twistedkytten


Posts: 240
Joined: 9/8/2006
Status: offline 		accidents .. are just that, accidents... anything can be considered more dangerous than something else. I think it depends on each individual and their own personal experiences ... a few paper cuts may not seem like a bad thing... until your rolling around in salt. Risk Awareness is always important even when you play with toothless, clawless kitties.

_____________________________

Obedience is life, girl lives to serve her Master

(in reply to BitaTruble)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: Whips and 'Accidents' - 9/7/2007 10:32:03 AM   
BoiJen


Posts: 2608
Joined: 3/7/2007
Status: offline 		RACK-knowning full well that you prefer the kitten with claws and teeth

(in reply to twistedkytten)
Profile   Post #: 70
RE: Whips and 'Accidents' - 9/7/2007 11:50:30 AM   
AquaticSub


Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BoiJen

RACK-knowning full well that you prefer the kitten with claws and teeth



Many people do. But RACK requires that you be aware of the risks.

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to BoiJen)
Profile   Post #: 71
RE: Whips and 'Accidents' - 9/7/2007 11:55:14 AM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		Again the difference here is simple CANT cause serious injury.

Tell that to the slaves of the 1800's who in verified documented cases were beaten to a point that any modern person would send to the ER. Ever seen the photgraphic evidence? I have. Now the problem with comparing bullwhips used for punishment vs bullwhips used for modern SM can be called into question. But the documented factual information is people have been injured to the point of requiring medical attention by bullwhips.

They CAN cause serious injury. Sure you pretty much have to be trying to do serious damage to get an injury that requires a trip to the ER. But there are those freak accidents. And it is relatively easy to cause a cut unintentionally when your skill level is slight. BTW Cuts from whips are actually more akin to friction burns. Cutting tricks such as cutting a playing card in two also show the potential for damage to human skin.

Sure you can teach a couple types of scene in just a few minutes (the whip is 4 ft your arm is 2.7 foot) if you keep the distance between yourself and the bottom at 7 ft apart you can crack that whip all night long without worry.
The danger with singletails comes from depth control. If I hit someone with the cracker the odds of serious damage are quite differnt than the damage if I hit them with a narrow fall, and those are different than if I hit them with a wide fall.

On to the subjet of wraps intentional wraps with a singltail are more of an illussion than a danger. Stage style wraps where the crack oges off and the "victim" is next seen with the whip warpped around their body are a trick.
The crack happens behind the person expending most of the energy and the remaining energy is used to cause the whip to afterwards wrap around the body or body part. The trick is it happens so closely togeher that the eye doesn't see the whole thing. If executed well it seems that they are all one thing, when practiced slowly the truth of the illussion comes out.
The Stage wrap is not dangerous to the whip to any real degree. Several years of performing wraps at least a dozen scenes a year involving them + practicing them and I have never even cut my own fall while doing it. Which I have done in just regular cracking practice.

(in reply to BoiJen)
Profile   Post #: 72
RE: Whips and 'Accidents' - 9/7/2007 12:00:18 PM   
Elegant


Posts: 1024
Joined: 3/15/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: twistedkytten

accidents .. are just that, accidents... anything can be considered more dangerous than something else. I think it depends on each individual and their own personal experiences ... a few paper cuts may not seem like a bad thing... until your rolling around in salt. Risk Awareness is always important even when you play with toothless, clawless kitties.


Slightly off topic,,,,,my mother had blood poisoning from an infected paper cut, a 1/4" cut from her business card. She was laid up for 4 weeks with the veins in her arm slit open. Risk Aware Consensual Business cards


_____________________________

Elegant
~Slave To Master Archer

http://www.FantasiesInLeather.com

(in reply to twistedkytten)
Profile   Post #: 73
RE: Whips and 'Accidents' - 9/7/2007 12:06:28 PM   
Elegant


Posts: 1024
Joined: 3/15/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BoiJen

RACK-knowning full well that you prefer the kitten with claws and teeth




RACK-knowning full well that you prefer the kitten with claws and teeth
OBTUSE - stating "there's no way that anyone is gonna get hurt bad enough from a kitten with claws and teeth that will cause a trip to the emergency room"



_____________________________

Elegant
~Slave To Master Archer

http://www.FantasiesInLeather.com

(in reply to BoiJen)
Profile   Post #: 74
RE: Whips and 'Accidents' - 9/7/2007 12:11:45 PM   
Grlwithboy


Posts: 655
Joined: 2/8/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

quote:

ORIGINAL: BoiJen

The number one cause for injuries resulting in hopsital or emergency care in the BDSM world are caused from rope use. Rope bondage is also the number one leader in accidental death in the BDSM world.


Citation, please? I'd like to read the source for these facts myself. I have a vested interested in such because of my hard-core penchant for rope bondage. Thanks in advance,

Celeste



rope - loss of balance. This is the most common, the least expected, and often happens with people who consider themselves good at bondage.  Do I have stats, no, who has stats on how many people even DO bondage?

The "this can't hurt me" factor is HUGE. While you may be in disagreement with the degree to which BoiJen holds her position, and I would not go that far myself, I agree completely with some of the underlying logic.  Singletail gone wrong will cut someone, possibly quite badly. Suspension gone wrong will kill someone or break their spine. The scariest thing is that people can tie a beautiful suspension to a point that does not support the total. How many of us know our equipment really that well? (forget any of it being rated - an REI rated carbiner on an unated rack is unrated)

Partial suspension, in heels, and a nose or pussy hook? A lot of people would call me a safety nazi for needing to leave the room, quite pissed. I like nostrils, myself. I'm in favor. I like vaginal tissues and pelvic bones.

How many people tying casual bondage know how to identfy possible massive major nerve damage as it happens (hint: it's not "tingling") and how many people just tying someone over the bed know what not to put rope over tightly? Nerve damage can mean loss of use of limb. And it happens even when people know what they are doing very well - how many bottoms go into bondage "Risk aware?"

I personally believe that some of the danger/extremity of singletail being overemphasiized is PRECISELY WHAT draws overconfident assholes to the toy and scares off prudent and responsible people.


< Message edited by Grlwithboy -- 9/7/2007 12:15:48 PM >

(in reply to BitaTruble)
Profile   Post #: 75
RE: Whips and 'Accidents' - 9/7/2007 12:32:28 PM   
amelliagrace


Posts: 1792
Joined: 8/4/2007
Status: offline 		Great post.  Thanks.  In my old age I've come to believe that every good bdsm library also contains a copy of Grey's Anatomy and some classic martial arts text on pressure and trigger points.
 
What you don't know CAN kill, and what you do know can go awry.  Risk management - it isn't just for insurace purposes and portfolios anymore.  Life without any risks at all, however, isn't much of a life.
 
-grace

(in reply to Grlwithboy)
Profile   Post #: 76
RE: Whips and 'Accidents' - 9/7/2007 12:49:40 PM   
CoyoteWhips


Posts: 45
Joined: 9/11/2006
From: Fitchburg, Mass.
Status: offline 		Apples and oranges everywhere!  Are we talking about a three-foot signal whip or a twelve-foot stock whip?  In some ways I agree with BoiJen.  Most people can learn to get started with a whip in a few minutes with competent instruction.

As Archer said, there are abolitionist stories of slaves killed with whips.  The tales I've read implied more than a few strikes.  In one case, the slave was beaten through the night.

I'm certainly not going on the record as opposed to safety.  You can put an eye out with a whip.  In fact, when you're learning to crack your whip, safety glasses are a really good idea.  Watch out with long whips, because they can pick up floor grit to embed in the skin.

However, whips are not the most dangerous item in the dungeon.  If I accidentally flick a careless bystander with my snake, it'll sting, but it's not going to open an artery.  When I'm teaching how to target with a snake, I'll often stand in front of a total newby and offer my palm as a target.  I've yet had one cut, or even welt my my hand or fingers.

Any impact toy in the hands of an inexperienced Dom/me is bad news.  Take some classes.  Get direction from other more experienced peers.  Respect, but don't fear your whip.


(in reply to Grlwithboy)
Profile   Post #: 77
RE: Whips and 'Accidents' - 9/7/2007 1:06:49 PM   
BoiJen


Posts: 2608
Joined: 3/7/2007
Status: offline 		Wow beaten through the night or at least hrs on end to end up injured enough to go to a hospital. I'm sorry even with a light wieght nylon whip someone is bound to get tired before that point. Much less with a heavier cow hide or roo whip. Also, with those stories of slaves being beaten until the were bloody and raw and all that....there's more than one person beating them. Last I checked no one in the BDSM community has done such. Can't find any record of it at least.

I never said be a fuckin idiot and tie a razor onto the cracker of a whip. I just said that it's impossible to put someone in the hopsital with injuries from a singletail given the most common occurance of it's use today. I don't care how long the whip is...as I've seen people wrap themselves before a bottom when first picking up a whip of extrodinary length. People who use whips on a common basis know this. People who are fooled by the myths and mystique created by people wanting to seem bigger than they are don't know this. And often are carried off by the "horror" (dramatic) stories of such major "injuries" which I can bet didn't quite occur they way they say they have.

I'm not saying freak shit doesn't happen. It does but I'll let somebody who's afraid of whip pick one of my own and go at it...I'm not scared. But then again I know my toys.

(in reply to CoyoteWhips)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: Whips and 'Accidents' - 9/7/2007 1:12:44 PM   
Grlwithboy


Posts: 655
Joined: 2/8/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CoyoteWhips

Apples and oranges everywhere!  Are we talking about a three-foot signal whip or a twelve-foot stock whip?  In some ways I agree with BoiJen.  Most people can learn to get started with a whip in a few minutes with competent instruction.

As Archer said, there are abolitionist stories of slaves killed with whips.  The tales I've read implied more than a few strikes.  In one case, the slave was beaten through the night.

I'm certainly not going on the record as opposed to safety.  You can put an eye out with a whip.  In fact, when you're learning to crack your whip, safety glasses are a really good idea.  Watch out with long whips, because they can pick up floor grit to embed in the skin.

However, whips are not the most dangerous item in the dungeon.  If I accidentally flick a careless bystander with my snake, it'll sting, but it's not going to open an artery.  When I'm teaching how to target with a snake, I'll often stand in front of a total newby and offer my palm as a target.  I've yet had one cut, or even welt my my hand or fingers.

Any impact toy in the hands of an inexperienced Dom/me is bad news.  Take some classes.  Get direction from other more experienced peers.  Respect, but don't fear your whip.




Thank you.

My first whip was one of your short ones.  That's pretty much what I have in mind mentally when I think "singletail"
I still throw it and a 4 foot signal. I am not a size queen in that regard. lol.


(in reply to CoyoteWhips)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Whips and 'Accidents' - 9/7/2007 1:17:54 PM   
Payshtha


Posts: 11
Joined: 8/6/2005
From: Omaha, NE
Status: offline 		I don't post here often. However, I could not resist this topic.

A bit of background on me, I both make and use whips. I have some small knowledge of whips and the physics behind how they work. Let me shed some light on the "Mystique" of the whip in general and possibly dispel a couple of myths in the process.

Any whip with a single lash or "tail" is a single tail whip. There are four basic generally accepted types of single tail whip (see below if you are interested in the types and what makes them different.) As with chess you can learn to use a whip in as little as a few minutes but it usually takes a while to master the use of the whip. The length of time it takes to master the use of a whip is highly variable between different people. The crack of a whip happens when the tip of the cracker exceeds the speed of sound and is in fact a sonic boom. The speed of sound itself is variable but is around 750 mph. At 750 mph the softest material becomes, shall we say not quite so soft. Can a whip cause damage? Definitely. Does a whip cause damage? Not normally. Normally the whip crack with all of its kinetic energy happens before the target is struck. This tends to expend the kinetic energy and slows the whip down tremendously. I hope that this has been helpful to at least one person.

 1. Signal Whip:
     A signal whip is a whip that is fully flexible from the tip of the cracker to the butt of the whip. The cracker of a signal whip is braided directly into the lash of the whip.

 2. Snake Whip:
     A snake whip like the signal whip is fully flexible from the tip of the cracker to the butt of the whip. The cracker of a snake whip is attached to a fall which in turn is
     attached to the lash of the whip.

 3. Australian Stock Whip:
     A stock whip has a lash that is generally attached to a handle by a specialized knot. The lash itself is identical to a snake whip.

 4. Bull Whip:
     A bull whip has a lash and an integral handle. The handle is usually plaited inside of the end of the lash. The cracker is attached to a fall which in turn is attached to the end
     of the lash.

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 80
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