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tsherpet -> RE: Are you Psychic and how does this affect your relationships? (9/7/2007 5:10:42 PM)
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"This is fun :) Perhaps we just haven't come up with a way to prove these things exist yet."
True, we haven't come up with anything that can prove the existence of psychic powers. But we shouldn't need some new fangled tool, psychics should be able to live up to their claims, if they really can do what they say they can do. It is not abuot what we can or cannot prove, it is about those who make extraordinary claims but who can provide no evidence, extraordinary or otherwise.
"There was a time that we couldn't prove that cells, bacteria or sounds waves existed. Did that make them any less real?"
But we didn't just make those things up, it was a logical progression, an accumulation of knowledge which lead to the inevitable discovery. Psychic powers have remained unchanged for thousands of years. We have not gotten better at using them, we do not understand them (in terms of real powers) any better than our ancestors thousands of years ago. So either we are incredible stupid and inept, or the psychic powers are stories. And while the psychic powers have not changed, our understanding of psychology and science has improved dramatically. In this way we do understand some of the psychic claims.
John Edward is the classic example. Here is a guy using well known psychological techniques, and who has a pathetic success rate when compared to psychologists, yet the mindless masses really believe he talks to dead people.
"There was even a time when we couldn't prove the world was not infact flat"
And that example proves my point. People made up simplistic, and wrong, explainations for why sea travel was unsafe. It was a mistake to make up answers then, and it still is now. unfortunately it's much easier to make up answers which appeal to us than to investigate and find actual answers, or admit the answers are for our descendants, not us.
"Yet the first ancient alchemists work wasn't based upon any known fact but the "wild" idea that there is a "magical" substance that had the ability to turn an invaluable substance (lead) into a valuable substance (gold)."
And why are you using alchemy? Try the scientific method. And be careful what you grab from the past, and what inspired it. If it's a wild magical idea, you are probably not dealing with much science. Funny how you are reducing science to alchemy, and ignoring the scientific method and the knowledge that alchemy doesn't work. No psychic came up with that.
"The end result of much of that work done by these alchemists is what we now know as Chemistry which is a science. "
Wow. Now apply that to psychics. People believe in psychic ability (alchemy), scientists investigate, psychic ability (alchemy) is found alcking, psychic ability (alchemy) is rejected. And from that we ahve quite a bit of modern knowledge about psychology and brain functions and memory and perception. So just as investigation disproved alchemy by allowing for the knowledge provided by chemistry, so investigation has disproved the psychic claims by allowing the knowledge of psychology to filter through the rose coloured lenses of the masses.
"tsherpet: Where do you think hypotheses come from?"
The application of knowledge to the next most likely step? Certainly not from the most simplistic idea one can drag from our ancestors thousands of years ago.
"Creationists make it sound as though a theory is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night." Isaac Asimov
While Asimov was referring to creationists, it works just as well for psychics.
"Let's face this: Without hypotheses, you would simply have none of your "facts", because there would have been nothing to ever investigate to begin with. This is my basic problem with hard-core skeptics - they don't ever seem to acknowldege this."
Rubbish. I have acknowledged this already. What you are conveniently ignoring is the trail and rejection part of the process. The hypothesis of psychic powers has been investigated thoroughly, more so than many other scientific dead ends, and has been rejected based on lack of results from the claimants.
This is my basic problem with hard core believers, they try and use science to boost their claims, but abandon scientific methods when it shows the weakness of their claim. You cannot have it both ways.
At best psychic powers are a rejected idea awaiting further evidence. And psychic powers are only an idea, they do not qualify for a theory. The psychological aspects behind the belief in psychic powers used to be a theory, they had enough substance to move from idea, to theory, to fact.
"This is not (to me) an insignificant question. "
No, just an incorrect one.
The whole time I have been talking about the lack of experimental results, and now you try and say sceptics are ignoring the scientific method? It's nice when people make claims that have already been proven wrong, makes things easier.
"I have not read it all, am definitely not the definitive source on the subject- but I don't see being open-minded as a bad thing. "
Are you being open minded though? Open minded does not mean letting every idea in, openmindedness requires analysis. It's like trust. Trusting people is a good thing, but no one is stupid enough to simply trust every single person the same. Being opne to new ideas and possibilities is a good thing, but being open to every half arsed idea fro thousands of years ago is quite stupid. No person can aquire humanities knowledge in one lifetime of experience, why would anyone try to relive every mistake in human history?
Be open minded, and look for the more reputable sceptic sites. And try that Sagan book before anything, it will help you keep openminded.
Isn't it funny that the one person not blindly accepting thousnads of years old explainations is the one being called closed minded? Open you minds to possibilities, explainations and NEW ideas.
"I don't see it as something that keeps people clinging to superstitions. Without it we would not ~have~ the knowledge we have today; as everybody would have clung to the accepted norms of their day- and the world would still be flat."
Psychic abilities were the accepted norm of the day, thousands of years ago. They are not new, neither is the confusion of the believers. For psychics, the world still is flat.
"So you are telling me that I am not alowed to believe in what I want? "
No. I am putting things in perspective. If you are allowed to believe anything you want, why wouldn't someone else be allowed to believe anything they want?
Beliefs are better tested than believed.
"Again....believe what you want to believe what you want to."
Thank you, but no thanks. I don't believe, and I certainly don't want to become like that. In fact I can't imagine how I could become a believer without massive head trauma. I know far too much about psychology and mythology.
"Do I think it's right that because the people that flew the planes into the buildings did it out of there beliefs? Nope....but you take that incedient and you think it's right to tell others how to believe."
No, I am just pointing out there is no quantifiable difference between your beliefs and theirs. Both are completely unfounded beliefs.
"Why would you compare 9/11 to physic ability.....holy shite "
Because of the part belief plays in both. You are defending your right to believe ANYTHING you want. If that is your right, shouldn't it be the right of every human being?
Luckily we took the power from believers a long time ago. In our society they need to pay for any damage their beliefs do, which tends to keep them on the fringes and not doing anything to harmful.
"but because I really don't think it's a big deal "
Yeah right. Real psychic abilities not a big deal? What panet do you live on? A provable psychic would be the biggest deal in the history of humanity, which is why anyone who really ahd these abilities would have no choice but to investigate them, prove they exist and try to understand and refine them. Unfortunately it seems to be the shortsighted and self centred who have these abilities. The ones who care about humanity seem to be limited to hard work and accumlated knowledge. Funny that?
"Pretty psychic. If I get a bad vibe from somebody either here,(and I've gotten a few) or anywhere else I don't pursue. I've found out the hardway not to ignore the warning."
LOL, now this is funny. On another group (completely unrelated to this one) we recently had a member kill his wife (the story was in the news, it wasn't part of the group activities). Now the psychics in the group understandabley didn't like me, but they all like the murderer. If I were you I wouldn't put much faith in psychic internet assessments, you may find yourself liking the wrong people. You may find yourself getting psychic vibes fromthe ones who tell you waht you like, not the ones who tell you what you need.
"The way people are in this world... and the way people are treated in the name of Science.. if I was a psychic that could be preform on a dime... I would be keeping it extremely hush hush myself."
Sorry, but the way people are treated by science would mean a noble prise for the first psychic who could prove their abilities. Science gives it's highest awards to those who disprove long held "facts". Unlike belief system who fight anything which upsets the belief, science embrasses investigation and challenges to previously held views.
"How dull a world we live in that we are expected to leave nothing to the imagination. "
There is nothing wrong with imagination, especially for story telling. But there are different kinds of imagination. There is the imagination of a man like Jules Verne or Davinci, and there is the limited imagination of the masses who keep "imagining" the same tired, flawed ideas.
"I wish now, that I had opportunity to speak to her about all of this but she passed before I was 25. "
It may have been nice to chat about it with her, but that knowledge is not lost. And all that she could not tell you is also available. You can only learn one side of the story from psychics, to understand the phemonena you need to step back from the belief and investigate.
"tsherpet I do understand that you have strong feelings concerning this. "
Sorry, but you have misunderstood. I really don't have strong feelings about this. my only "feeling" in relation to this topic is the feeling that people should investigate anything they wish to undrrstand, that our history shows us belief is lazy, though appealing.
"So I ask that you let those enjoying this thread do so without you posting so often denigrating their beliefs. I don't think the repetition is needed please. "
Some are enjoying the rational input to this discussion, they have been emailing me. So while it may upset the believers, I will continue to deal with the facts. If your beliefs must be respected, then so does my knowledge and the accumalated knowledge of humanity.
And the repetition is obviously needed. If it wasn't needed this thread would not exist.
"Since birth I have seen "people" - usually when I've been emotionally upset or in need of comfort."
Now that is interesting. Being emotionally upset or needing comfort brings people to comfort you? What a surprise? Have you investigate this froma psychological perspective, or do you simply accept it as real?
"I HATE the term ghosts. I always called them "my freespirited friends" or my "fairies". I have NEVER been threatened or harmed by them, although some of them like to hide keys and things."
Which brings us back to my psychic ability, the draining of all other psychic abilities. I have investigated quite a few of these kinds of things personally, and in most cases nothing happens while I'm around. In the ones where somehting does ahppen, it is the person making the claim who moves things, sometimes on purpose sometimes subconsciously.
Ever watch Fight Club? The psychological aspects are quite good, we really can convince ourselves thaqt unreal things exist.
"I was VERY lucky to be supported and encouraged to see as a child and not belittled or told I was crazy or imagining things or a liar. "
Actually you were no better off than those who are called liars. Lucky would have been being encouraged to investiagte and find real answers.
"My Master is a druid, natural healer and certified midwife."
Is he really a druid, otr the watered down modern version? Don't forget the druids did practice human sacrifice, anyone claiming to be a druid who doesn't is just a modern bullshitter. You cannot adopt an old belief system and discard everything which made that belief system what it was.
"He's been teaching me about karma "
Ah karma. One of the best population control methods ever invented. Someone does you wrong, don't worry they will be punished in the next life, and if you endure the mistreatment you advance. Very nice for those in power.
"with all due respect you seem intent on ignoring me. Why do you feel the need for so much endless reference to information, information, information."
Without information we are left in darkness relying on tales whispered on the wind. Humanity has been around for awhile and learned a few things, ignore it at your own perile.
"Let your ego take a hike, well at least a ride. "
My ego? I am not the one making claims I cannot substantiate. I am not the one rejecting plausible explainations in favour of previously held beliefs.
"The 'scientific' evidence for psychic ability is being worked on now in a new branch of genetics known as epigenetics. "
There is a long eway to go before that connection is made. Though I can see why psychics are jumping on the idea in hope. The problem is the psychics still can't perform.
"does answering questions before they are asked when they are not relevant to the topic being discussed make me psychic? does singing the song thats playing in my moms head make me psychic?"
Well you could test those things. Most people think this happens at some stage, but when recoring ones abilities it ends up the correct guesses aren't that often, and the false ones are simply forgotten. It is amazing how our minds really work.
"now the skeptics will say that he read my body language, but, when i would think "yellow" as a broadcast...he would stop, walk up to me, and ask me...did you say yellow, as if i had said it outloud...so...draw your own conclusions?"
The first idea to look at would be your imagination. Your selection of words amy not have been difficult to pick. Also we have to consider the possibility that this story in not entirely accurate. A common feature of psychics is their selective memory. Which is why testing is so valuable.
"One of Oprah's dogs recently met with a tragic, untimely death. It choked on one of its toys, and they were unable to revive it. Maybe that's what you picked up on?"
How could Oprah falling down an elevator be related to her dog choking on a toy? I know this kind of reaching is required to believe in psychic, but come on!
"I've never heard of Entwinement. I'll have to do some research on it. My Aunt explained it this way (she was a healer and a gypsy who I admired so much): That twins have a special connection to each other's souls"
Lets not forget the twins who do not have this. Also are any connections psychic, genetic or psychological? And lets not forget all the twins who die prenatally.
"I always loved that explaination. It reminds me that love connects humans in a way that nothing else can."
Yes, it's a pretty idea.
"Have there ever been instances of psychic psychotics?"
Of course, psych wards are full of "psychics" who cannot function in society. If they can function in society and are not going to harm themselves or others, then they are free psychics.
"I mean, I know police have used psychics to solve crimes."
No, they haven't. Psychics claim to have helped cops, with no evidence. Or they make vague predictions based on the known facts of the case 9the same predictions as cops and journos) then act like they got it right through psychic ability.
"How would you explain that other than proof? "
First of all I'd need to story confirmed. Considering how amny "psychics" manipulate timelines I would be stupid to just accept a personal anecdote as fact. And anyone who would expect me (or anyone else) to accept unsupported anecdotes either has no respect for intellignece or is a straight out con artist. Thi8s is why any true psychic would be doing everything they could to prove those abilities exist.
"I also am an empath and can't shut it down, have telekinetic abilities, and can even read thoughts. "
Is distance a problem? Tell me my thoughts and feelings? Those you can't read from my posts.
"You can believe it's not been proven if you like, but I've read studies and seen things that you could not explain as smoke and mirrors. "
It's not a belief, psychic abilities are unproven. Please show the studies, and more than likely I'll be able to point out the flaws in their procedures or direct you to a hoaxes site which could educate you.
"no...its just harder to perform like a circus monkey...especially when they don't provide you with any little treats every time you do something... "
I (and others) have lived with psychics for weeks or months at a time, recording their failures. They do perform like a cirucs monkey, but their performance is empty of psychic abilities. They still think it is working, but the evidence proves it's all in their head.
"After watching these things happen over the course of 2 decades together, he knows this is real and respects it. I have even heard him defend me to others who doubted when I told them. "
I wonder what real tests did he do? Or did he just get caught up in your show?
"People confuse being intuitive to psychic ability....Ever think of a song and you turn on the radio and there it is? It happens to everyone...Sorry to disappoint you all...But ya got nothing...You are not as special as you would like to think...You unfortunately are part of the herd as much as you try to separate yourselves....You have no special power....You have nothing...You blend into the noise of humanity...You are static...It's kinda sad."
Absolutely correct.
"He did however inply that those of us that do belive in the supernatrual have not looked at it logically. i for once have, and i still belive. "
Well belief does defy logic. If you truly had investigated psychic abilities logically you would have rejected the idea opending further evidence. That is the logical position.
"i hope this to. That would be wonderful and i think many fieald would advance very quikly if the two topped being enemie and started to work together, giving one another a little arm space and cooperating. "
So much for logic. Science has worked with psychcic, and when it found nothing the psychiocs claim science was working against them. Psychics do mnot want sciences input UNLESS it confirms their beliefs.
"i have never said i am special."
A claim of supernatural powers is claiming to be special.
"Some pepole have just developed them more than others and are more open. "
LOL @ more open. How do you think I investigated so many psychic failures? I am very open to psychic abilities, but only if they exist, not just from unproven stories which do not differ from known fakes.
"ok so if you get a feeling that you should not proceed with something or someone or should perhaps proceed with caution is that intuition or psychic abilities? How does one know the difference?"
It's intuition, and it's wrong at least half the time, people just tend to forget the wrong times and overemphasise the right guesses. That is a recognised fact of how our brains work.
"Only that having a psychic ability is no different than having soccer abilities, or mathematic abilities."
LOL, except soccer and mathematical ability can be proven, psychic ability cannot. Why do people keep comparing reality with fantasy as though the two are interchangable?
"The human mind is a vast thing that most scientists believe we don't use all of."
Go back to the start of the thread, we have dealt with that MYTH already. See how people just amke up a "scientific fact" to suit their own beliefs? This myth has been shown to be false already in this thread, and here we have someone trying to claim most scientists believe this myth. What a joke.
"Unless you are willing to look into all science yourself, then you don't really have a leg to stand on when telling others they are wrong IMHO. Saying that psychic phenomenon is fake without exhausting all possibilities yourself is making a claim based in anything but fact. "
LOL, obviously I know a hell of a lot more about all science than you. You are using a myth I have already shown to be false. You've entered a scientific nuclear war carrying a butter knife. You are woefully inadequately armed to make such comments.
"Would we tell a piano player he shouldn't feel special or take some measure of self identity from his abilities and expressions of self?"
Once again, piano playing can be proven, psychics can't.
"Trust me, at age 8 I had no idea that I shouldn't be able to predict the weather completely accurately months in advance"
That sounds like ti should be easy to prove. Why aren't you helpig to advance humanities understanding?
"Logic tends to be useless whenever it really matters :) "
Well for someone who makes this kind of statement, logic would be completely useless. But only for that kind of person.
"I have no idea what it is, where it comes from, how it works and only the vaguest ideas of how to deal with it."
Now that is the most intelligent comment from a believer in this whole thread. And not knowing leads one to simple easy answers, instead of understanding.
"I'm bowing out here as the discussion feels a million miles from any sort of realm that any empath would want to be in. cruel, sarcastic and trivial. "
Yes the truth is often cruel to our beliefs.
"dear skepticism...always in oppoaition and always reactionary. "
You mean always waiting. Sceptics are not in opposition. You make a claim, a sceptic says wow that is interesting, lets see.
"there are some houses that do speak to you. that would change your mind that there is more there then the naked eye"
I've been to many such places, and all ahve failed to live up to the hype. I've even seen people point at small marsupials or rodents and claim they saw a ghost. Mostly scared city people who have no idea about animals, or night noises.
"Unless you have experienced it you will never understand it and skepticism will always prevail. "
As domiguy said, many of the "psychic" things ahve been experienced by non psychics. Also con artists and psychologists outperform psyhcics. Scepticism does not come from a lack of understanding, it comes from understanding, and a lack of results from claimants.
"Simply have psychic make a prediction about something that the psychic can not know, record the results, and conduct a statistical analysis to see if the result could be random chance. "
That has been done numerous times, like the mountain range on Jupiter example.
"These experiment must have been done many times. Has anyone ever seen the results of an experiment like this? "
Yes, which is why I have been saying psychics are failures. I've even posted exactly what you are referring to.
"well, sure i could have someone do that if i were a trick pony that could perform on command"
LOL, actually the recorder would follow you, it would be on your timetable, not on their demand.
"To any hard-core skeptic: The thing that always amazes me is that it seems that when someone just can't turn their psychic abilities on and off like some water faucet, a hard-core skeptic will usually interpret this to equate with those abilities not existing"
What a load of crap. Pyschics often get to set the timetable, to amke the experiments as psychically friendly as possible. This eliminates the whining about being amde to perform. We learnt that whining trick the first time it was done.
"IMO, if the world was run by hard-core skeptics, we'd most likely all still be living in a cave somewhere without electricity "
Actually it was a sceptic who would have stuck their head out of the cave to see the fire lightening created, while the bliever hide from the thunder god. Same with the flat earth, or any other discovery. It's not the ones clinging to old beliefs who lead the way.
"So - I am left to wonder how a hard-core skeptic would propose to ever advance the world of "scientific fact" - since they don't believe in hypotheses - only in the realm of what has "already been proven"? "
That is bullshit. Sceptics use the scientific method, and encourage psychics to employ it. What you are ignoring is the experimentation and rejection of failed ideas.
Susan,
PLEASE! go and look up the scientific method and become familiar with it before trying to take the science out of scepticism. Also try the Sagan book.
You really are scientifically illiterate. You are behind people from the dark ages in terms of understanding scientific principle, yet you try and talk about science like you know what you are saying. It's a sad joke.
"However, I know what happened to me. I am quite capable of discerning fact from fiction, reality from fantasy"
Wow, so what makes you so special and completely different to the rest of humanity? You are claiming to be without basic huiman traits, are you an alien?
"That some people have pychic ability has been proven, over and over again."
Really? Where?
"Steven King calls it "having an extra twinkle,""
Steven King is a writer of FICTION. Have we been reduced to writer of fiction to support psychic abilities?
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