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NorthernGent -> RE: Bin Laden urges Americans to convert to Islam (9/9/2007 1:30:18 AM)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: InfernoMDM
I will check out 1931-45 more in depth, as Britian isn't my major subject matter, but no one has claimed it as a socialist state ever, and as the above poster mentioned (which I did miss) that you may have been talking about Socialized Industry etc. That you see was enough inforation for me to at least further look into. That said has this trend continued or did it end at 1945 with failure?
"Failure"...a loaded question if ever I saw one: do some research around the increase in standard of living between 1930 and 1970, you'll be surprised.
If Britain isn't your subject matter, then why are you expending the energy to dispute British Socialism?, and how exactly can you claim "no one has claimed it as a Socialist state ever"?
It seems to me like the you've made a misjudgement in your balance of talking and reading.
The British Labour Party grew out of the Trade Union movement and Socialist parties of the late 19th century; have a look at Clause IV of the party's manifesto which stresses commitment to common ownership of the means of production, distribution and exchange.
quote:
ORIGINAL: InfernoMDM
Some claim there is proof it works, but I for one don't see its positive effects on wide scale systems, and don't believe the evidence that is positive outweighs all the horror it has created.
There is proof it works in certain countries, Britain being one (depending on the measurement for "worked").
There is an element of force and coercion with Socialism, of course, and in practice there has been "horror" in certain countries, but this is true of the United States too: dissenters have been oppressed, the United States government has supported right-wing military juntas who have massacred their own people, and they have gone as far as overthrowing sovereign governments. The implication that only Socialism leads to terror, is one from a position of ignorance. I'm neither Socialist nor agree with the principle of US Market Democracy: in my view the Americans and the Russians are two sides of the same coin; the idea may be different, but both of you have a significant proportion of your populations who can't see beyond your idea, and you will kill people for this and excuse it as "we need to kill people in order to stop the spread of the other idea/protect our values".
Moreover, the common denominator in overt government oppression is not Socialism or Capitalism: it is poverty. Take a look at the world's recent history and you'll see regimes in various guises, from right-wing dictatorships to left-wing totalitarian regimes, who have used fear, force and coercion to grab and maintain power. Then you could have a look at the more covert methods of fear and coercion in the self-proclaimed civilised nations, and you'd see that the view that only Socialism leads to "horror", is wide of the mark.
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