RE: Bin Laden urges Americans to convert to Islam (Full Version)

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NorthernGent -> RE: Bin Laden urges Americans to convert to Islam (9/9/2007 1:47:10 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

The people at the time didn't think so, he stood for Prime Minister in 1945 and lost the election: in a contest of two, he finished a very poor second to the Labour Party leader Clement Atlee. 'Not much to write home about!



I found it! (Eureka)
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the gospel of envy."
Oh, and about Clement Atlee Sir Winston said; "A modest man with much to be modest about."
And; "A sheep in sheep's clothing."



Popeye, yet again, I'm baffled with the American way; every visit to this board seems to confirm the existence of another universe:

1) Isn't this the board that derides career politicians?
2) Churchill changed sides not once, but twice, in an attempt to achieve the top job.
3) In other words, he is up there with the most voracious of career politicians.
4) Taking a wild stab in the dark, he has an American grandparent or something, so he's alright in your book.
5) From a Northern English point of view, a man without principles is a man without principles, nationality is irrelevant. 

I'd be amazed if you know anything about Socialism or Clement Atlee, but feel free to repeat the ramblings of a career politician who couldn't win an election against Socialists in 1945, even on the back of snatching victory from the jaws of defeat against an enemy that had been preparing for war for nigh on 15 years.

Come on Popeye, you commenting on Churchill and Atlee, is like me commenting on two of your Presidents from the 1930s: built on zero knowledge.

"A modest man without much to be modest about" - aren't you a man of the people, Popeye?



NorthernGent -> RE: Bin Laden urges Americans to convert to Islam (9/9/2007 1:54:03 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KruelMistressK

OBL would kill me.  He would kill Northerngent too.  Am I wrong about that?



That's a bold claim, and one that may have been accurate if you had said PoliteSub, but I'm a member of Al-Quaeda......primarily in the laundry department, but I sometimes double-up as the receptionist when she's off work with sickness...so I'm exempt from death duties. Great pension scheme, by the way, if you're interested.



NorthernGent -> RE: Bin Laden urges Americans to convert to Islam (9/9/2007 2:00:34 AM)

General reply:

Do many Americans convert to Islam? It's virtually unheard of in Britain, Cat Stevens excluded. This supposed threat of Islam makes me laugh, the British are not predisposed to the order of worship.



InfernoMDM -> RE: Bin Laden urges Americans to convert to Islam (9/9/2007 3:03:37 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent


"Failure"...a loaded question if ever I saw one: do some research around the increase in standard of living between 1930 and 1970, you'll be surprised.

If Britain isn't your subject matter, then why are you expending the energy to dispute British Socialism?, and how exactly can you claim "no one has claimed it as a Socialist state ever"?


Because in my studies of Eastern Europe during the rise and fall of europe Britians socialist experiments were nothing more then a footnote in text books, historical documentation and your apparent claim (may have taken it wrong) that socialism is effective looked wrong at best.

Hence why I was trying to understand exactly what you were getting at.



Politesub53 -> RE: Bin Laden urges Americans to convert to Islam (9/9/2007 5:00:26 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: KruelMistressK

OBL would kill me.  He would kill Northerngent too.  Am I wrong about that?



That's a bold claim, and one that may have been accurate if you had said PoliteSub, but I'm a member of Al-Quaeda......primarily in the laundry department, but I sometimes double-up as the receptionist when she's off work with sickness...so I'm exempt from death duties. Great pension scheme, by the way, if you're interested.


Don`t worry too much NG i have been busy along the south coast tidying up a few caves. Last week i took a trip to Do it all and got some paint and stuff, the caves i found all look spiffy and OBL will be happy enough with me. Thankfully i should be back in his good books. [;)]

quote:

Politesub53 - Do a little more research and focus around the orgnazation that helped found the GIA.  1992-2000.  Basicly the GIA broke off from parent organization (can't remember the name) beause Islamic extremists were targeting civilians, primarily writers, artists, and women.  Many public deaths were cause by the Islamic fundmentalists trying to impose control with Islam.


Inferno, far from me being the one who needs more research your assertions are all arse about face. GIA was the group murdering civilians, especially teachers and reporters.
Even so, the figure you quote were caused by civil war and not a socialist state.

Edited for spelling.



maybemaybenot -> RE: Bin Laden urges Americans to convert to Islam (9/9/2007 5:14:34 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: maybemaybenot

The Prophet Mohammed before calling for jihad sent out an offer to the infidels to embrace Isalm. If they did not, jihad began. It is still part of the Islamic religion regarding jihad to invite to join them first, if not wage a holy war.



The term Jihad has been corrupted; it actually means "strive", not "holy war".

Holy war in no more a part of the Islamic religion, than it is the Christian religion .


A gramatic error on my part and on the part of many a Mullah and Imam. But the meat and potatoes of my post is correct. My poor usuage of the term Holy War, does not  negatte the historical facts. Once the offer to embrace Islam was declined, Mohammed unleashed war in the name of Allah. It is part of the Muslim doctrine. And jihad is indeed part of the Islamic religion and it entails violence/death against non believers of Islam and is sanctified by the prophet of Islam- Mohammed.

Perhaps the absolute translation of the word jihad has been corrupted, but it's definition has not. Much the same as the word Islam is perported to mean peace in Arabic. It does not mean peace, it means submission. " Salaam" means peace in Arabic.

                           mbmbn

edited to add:
NG. I am well aware that the term jihad does not always entail declaring war or violence and can be a personal attainment.  But in the context of this thread that is the intent of the word. Jihad is a word with a wide scope of meaning, depending on it's application to the circumstance.



NorthernGent -> RE: Bin Laden urges Americans to convert to Islam (9/9/2007 5:45:55 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: maybemaybenot

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: maybemaybenot

The Prophet Mohammed before calling for jihad sent out an offer to the infidels to embrace Isalm. If they did not, jihad began. It is still part of the Islamic religion regarding jihad to invite to join them first, if not wage a holy war.



The term Jihad has been corrupted; it actually means "strive", not "holy war".

Holy war in no more a part of the Islamic religion, than it is the Christian religion .


A gramatic error on my part and on the part of many a Mullah and Iman. But the meat and potatoes of my post is correct. My poor usuage of the term Holy War, does not  negatte the historical facts. Once the offer to embrace Islam was declined, Mohammed unleashed war in the name of Allah. It is part of the Muslim doctrine. And jihad is indeed part of the Islamic religion and it entails violence/death against non believers of Islam and is sanctified by the prophet of Islam- Mohammed.

Perhaps the absolute translation of the word jihad has been corrupted, but it's definition has not. Much the same as the word Islam is perported to mean peace in Arabic. It does not mean peace, it means submission. " Salaam" means peace in Arabic.

                            mbmbn


Based on historical evidence, "holy war" is no more a part of Islam, than it is Christianity.

How many wars have been fought over the years in the name of Christian morals?; from what I can gather, some of you support the US government's intrusion into Iraq in order to preserve Christian morals and values: the perceived clash of civilisations etc.

One unmistakable fact is this: the Christian governments of the West, supported by the wider population, have invaded Muslim countries for centuries. When was the last state/people sponsored Muslim invasion of the West? There is a complete imbalance here, and I can only guess at why Westerners turn a blind eye to the actions of their democratically elected governments, yet expect Muslims to take responsibility for the actions of a minority of terrorists.

A person could pick at the bones of Western and Eastern cultures all day long, and take the good, the bad, or both as that person sees fit; however, when one culture is deemed to be inherently good, and the other inherently bad, then I'd suggest it's time for that person to reassess their personal ethics and morals.



camille65 -> RE: Bin Laden urges Americans to convert to Islam (9/9/2007 5:50:09 AM)

I may have missed it but I haven't seen anyone here that has read the full transcript.
http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/msnbc/sections/news/070907_bin_laden_transcript.pdf

It reads differently than from what it sounds like. IMO it is a bit pendantic and 'simple' but despite that if you simply read it w/o considering the source some of the messages could easily strike a tone with people.




Level -> RE: Bin Laden urges Americans to convert to Islam (9/9/2007 5:54:17 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

When was the last state/people sponsored Muslim invasion of the West?


NG, I would guess that  the lack of that is due to an inability, moreso than an absence of willingness.
 
But, you're correct, in that neither "side" is blameless, nor without redeeming factors, or good people.



maybemaybenot -> RE: Bin Laden urges Americans to convert to Islam (9/9/2007 6:02:26 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent


Based on historical evidence, "holy war" is no more a part of Islam, than it is Christianity.




"Holy War" may not be a part of Islam, but jihad is. It is referenced about 40 times in the Qu'ran. You chastise me for the use of Holy War, then use the term to support your view of Islam. You need to chose one word and go with it. You can't have it both ways. I believe you chose " Holy War " here becasue you are well aware that jihad is sancitified in the Islamic religion. Let's not play grammer games.


Historically, Mohammed, invaded and killed peoples to spread the  Islamic religion. Historically, Mohammed is noted as an warrior.That is fact.

And please do not presume that I see one culture as inherently good or bad. I am speaking to the topic of discussion. Not about the entire Islamic world. Just as some Christians find Biblical justification to back up their deeds, so do some Muslims.

                            mbmbn



maybemaybenot -> RE: Bin Laden urges Americans to convert to Islam (9/9/2007 6:10:26 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

One unmistakable fact is this: the Christian governments of the West, supported by the wider population, have invaded Muslim countries for centuries. When was the last state/people sponsored Muslim invasion of the West?


Christian governments? What is that ? To my knowledge, neither your country nor mine are theocracies. While I do not support the War in Iraq, I dipute your inference that the intent of the war was to spread the word of Christianity to the people and convert them.

Governments, whose majority population is Christian have gone to war with Muslim nations, you are correct. But it has been a matter of OIL, however veiled the message has been. It has not been to spread religous doctrine.

                                     mbmbn



LadyMystical -> RE: Bin Laden urges Americans to convert to Islam (9/9/2007 6:11:25 AM)

Look up the definition of jihad before you go tossing it about as a beacon for all to denounce anything.

Lady M ~ EvilGenie



SlaveOwnerDave -> RE: Bin Laden urges Americans to convert to Islam (9/9/2007 6:13:26 AM)

Bin Laden urges Americans to convert to Islam

When Islam stops being a portable/roving death camp, THEN I'll give converting some thought.

But for now, sign Me as "None of the above"!

Slave Owner Dave



sharainks -> RE: Bin Laden urges Americans to convert to Islam (9/9/2007 6:14:04 AM)

For those stating that holy war is no more a part of Islam than it is Christianity you need to review a New Testament.  Jesus called for his followers to share the good news.  He didn't say anything about killing those that would not convert.  Was it used that way?  Yes unfortunately it was.  

It is the Old Testament that is full of killing those who were worshipping idols and other gods.  Yes it has been made a part of what we call "The Bible" as a whole. 

Part of what we are experiencing now is a reaction to the "Christian Crusaders"  from centuries ago who tried to do away with anyone who would not convert.   Many who experienced that were Muslims.   Is it any wonder that there is a centuries old hatred of Christians in Muslim countries?  

Hatred and murder of others is not what Jesus preached.   Rightly we can't call Christian what went on before Christ came.  First there was the worship of the one living God.  Then "The Law" was given,  after that Jesus came with a new covenent with God.  The people of the new covenent are Christians. 



Real0ne -> RE: Bin Laden urges Americans to convert to Islam (9/9/2007 6:16:01 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
One unmistakable fact is this: the Christian governments of the West, supported by the wider population, have invaded Muslim countries for centuries. When was the last state/people sponsored Muslim invasion of the West? There is a complete imbalance here, and I can only guess at why Westerners turn a blind eye to the actions of their democratically elected governments, yet expect Muslims to take responsibility for the actions of a minority of terrorists.



Yeh they should be more altruistic like the US!  Hell we let anyone come into our country and "take over" our oil, force their way of living on us when ever they want and we never complain!  Hell we try to set a good example but they just dont listen.  (cough)

you are dead on target!

People always reference religion when things become immoral, what other sources are there?  Of course good christians never burned witches either. Salem!

At least they gave the western societies a chance to correct their immoral behavior before declaring jihad.     which of course is not interpreted that way, but interpreted here as everyone has to convert to islam.






LadyMystical -> RE: Bin Laden urges Americans to convert to Islam (9/9/2007 6:16:10 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

General reply:

Do many Americans convert to Islam? It's virtually unheard of in Britain, Cat Stevens excluded. This supposed threat of Islam makes me laugh, the British are not predisposed to the order of worship.


I lived in the UK for many years and reverted to Islam there; 7 years ago. It is NOT virtually unheard of in the UK and I knew many white anglo saxon protestants like myself who reverted.

Lady M ~ EvilGenie



InfernoMDM -> RE: Bin Laden urges Americans to convert to Islam (9/9/2007 6:17:48 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: KruelMistressK

OBL would kill me.  He would kill Northerngent too.  Am I wrong about that?



That's a bold claim, and one that may have been accurate if you had said PoliteSub, but I'm a member of Al-Quaeda......primarily in the laundry department, but I sometimes double-up as the receptionist when she's off work with sickness...so I'm exempt from death duties. Great pension scheme, by the way, if you're interested.


Don`t worry too much NG i have been busy along the south coast tidying up a few caves. Last week i took a trip to Do it all and got some paint and stuff, the caves i found all look spiffy and OBL will be happy enough with me. Thankfully i should be back in his good books. [;)]

quote:

Politesub53 - Do a little more research and focus around the orgnazation that helped found the GIA.  1992-2000.  Basicly the GIA broke off from parent organization (can't remember the name) beause Islamic extremists were targeting civilians, primarily writers, artists, and women.  Many public deaths were cause by the Islamic fundmentalists trying to impose control with Islam.


Inferno, far from me being the one who needs more research your assertions are all arse about face. GIA was the group murdering civilians, especially teachers and reporters.
Even so, the figure you quote were caused by civil war and not a socialist state.

Edited for spelling.


Sorry I wasn't apply Socialism caused it, but was pointing out that Algerias women were not more free then Western women, as plainly seen by the events in the country.

Your right GIA was the group killing civilians, I was thinking of the GSPC that broke off.  The GIA was associated with another group which I couldn't remember.

I just got side tracked by the comments about Britan, as I hadn't heard it stated so strongly.



Real0ne -> RE: Bin Laden urges Americans to convert to Islam (9/9/2007 6:20:49 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SlaveOwnerDave

Bin Laden urges Americans to convert to Islam

When Islam stops being a portable/roving death camp, THEN I'll give converting some thought.

But for now, sign Me as "None of the above"!

Slave Owner Dave



urges and demands are entirely 2 different things by my read!


christianity "urges" everyone to become christian too for that matter







maybemaybenot -> RE: Bin Laden urges Americans to convert to Islam (9/9/2007 6:27:39 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyMystical

Look up the definition of jihad before you go tossing it about as a beacon for all to denounce anything.

Lady M ~ EvilGenie


http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/jihad

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/jihad

http://www.yourdictionary.com/ahd/j/j0042000.html

Ohh, and this one:




Jihad
To fight and kill in the path of Allah, the enemies of Allah, for the cause of Allah.  It can also be used to mean to strive in the path of Allah.

http://muttaqun.com/dictionary3.html

and this one:





Word:
Jihad

Meaning:
(1) Struggle (in the way of Allah (God))
(2) Holy War

True Form:
جهاد

Grammar:
verb;

Explanation:
There are two types of Jihad.
(1) The greater (akbar) Jihad - This is preserving ones-self from sin and disbelief.
(2) The lesser (asghar) Jihad - This is going to war to defend Islam, people, property or occupation of an Muslim or Islamic country


http://www.islamic-dictionary.com/index.php?word=jihad&submit=Search



Well, that certainly muddies things up a bit.

                                    mbmbn



Politesub53 -> RE: Bin Laden urges Americans to convert to Islam (9/9/2007 6:38:37 AM)

Its easy enough to get abbreviations confused during a heated debate. [;)]



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