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RE: 50's household: what do you like/don't like about it? - 9/9/2007 10:16:49 AM   
mmb1


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I like proudsub's version :)

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RE: 50's household: what do you like/don't like about it? - 9/9/2007 5:01:36 PM   
Najakcharmer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: e01n
As to being technospoiled, that's actually part of why the jello-atrocities were such a big thing: gelatin went from being a true luxury (having enough meat to have enough bones to cook down to make gelatin in the Victorian era) to being easily made in the '20s to being synthesized in the '50s. Combine with the demise of the icebox and the rise of the refrigerator and you have it now easy to produce what grandmother slaved over (or had her staff slave over) as "elegant food".

Out of context and with Mr. Lileks' captions, yeah - pretty foul.


It has nothing to do with out of context.  The food itself is simply foul.  One of my major hobbies is historical food preparation.  I've done a number of authentic period recreations using ingredients and techniques ranging from Stone Age to Apicius/Roman Empire to Elizabethan to Careme.  The non Jell-O-fied, non-instant aspic and gelatin dishes are really excellent.  They look good and they taste good even to the modern palate.  It is possible to cheat a bit and use Knox unflavored gelatin instead of messing about for eight hours to get a decent batch of calves' foot jelly.  I have also used unflavored gelatin to make a too-small batch of authentic aspic larger in a hurry.  That works just fine. 

What does NOT work in any way, shape or form is to cheat entirely and use flavored Jell-O and crap ingredients.  Lilek's captions are funny as hell, but the food depicted therein emphatically deserves them. 

But yeah, excellent sociocultural observation.  Back before there was instant gelatin, aspic and gelatin dishes were quite the luxury and automatically bespoke of gentility and excellence.  They required huge quantities of meat and bone and connective tissue, many hours to cook down slowly and significant skill in clarifying, setting and chilling.  So only the rich could afford them regularly.  To everyone else they were a very occasional luxury treat.  Then Jell-O came along and suddenly every housewife could serve high-status aspic dishes in the blink of an eye.  So they did.  Oh, did they ever.  The results were, as Lilek puts it, regrettable. 

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RE: 50's household: what do you like/don't like about it? - 9/9/2007 5:14:28 PM   
e01n


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Najakcharmer: What does NOT work in any way, shape or form is to cheat entirely and use flavored Jell-O and crap ingredients. Lilek's captions are funny as hell, but the food depicted therein emphatically deserves them.
Somewhat agreed - it really depends on the quality of ingredients and the hands preparing it.

Do I go looking for a chance to make some of these foods? Hell no. In fact, if I am asked to make something historical for a dinner party, chances are I'm digging out De Re Coquinaria or De Honest Voluptate before BHG Entertaining Without Servants. But using the right ingredients and some common sense prevents much of the regrettable foods from being so... regrettable.

And gelatinized entrees are really what make me glad that I've been born when I have... While I often get beautiful chicken jello when making stock, I'm just not a big fan of doing that outside of my pressure cooker.

Swedish meatballs and fondue, however... I'm all about the fondue. But that's another fetish for discussion later...

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RE: 50's household: what do you like/don't like about it? - 9/9/2007 5:21:14 PM   
xoxi


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Like to be dipped in warm creamy things, eh?

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RE: 50's household: what do you like/don't like about it? - 9/9/2007 5:33:48 PM   
Najakcharmer


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White truffle fondue with Fontina, Camembert and a touch of Gruyere for me thanks.  

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RE: 50's household: what do you like/don't like about it? - 9/9/2007 5:36:49 PM   
gypsygrl


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quote:

That said, I'd like to know more about your findings and about whether the account you take to be historically accurate is grist for any of your own kinky considerations.


Most of my research involved changing structures of authority that accompanied the shift from free market to monopoly capitalism (for lack of a better word) and the emergence of a scientific culture and how this impacted the family.  In my mind, by the 1950's, patriarchy had been supplanted by a form of technocracy leaving 'fathers' with little authority in the home.  Father didn't know best.  Neither did mother. (Technocracy didn't immediately replace patriarchy...there was a mediating phase, that was maternalistic in orientation, where middle class women looked to 'the home and family' as their 'domain')  Substantively, I've researched the life of Dr. Spock (the baby doc); the history of the beech nut baby food company; and the birth control movement in order to explore how 'science' came to be seen as a hegemonic cultural authority and the relationship between scientific authority and processes of commodification (you can probably intuit the influence of cultural marxism, here).  

As for how/if my research has influenced my kinky considerations, in the last 5 or 6 years, I've gone through various preoccupations.  I suppose the most relevant would be an erotic interest in the sort of objectification engaged in by human service professionals along the lines of medical fetishes.   More of a Marcus Welby, M.D. thing than a  Father Knows Best thing. 

I agree that, when it comes to fetishes and the like, historical accuracy is quite besides the point. 


_____________________________

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RE: 50's household: what do you like/don't like about it? - 9/9/2007 5:47:06 PM   
SeeksOnlyOne


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i was raised in the 60's, but the roles my mom and dad played are comforting to me........it worked for them so well.......

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in those moments of solitude, does everyone sometimes think they are insane? or is it just me?

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RE: 50's household: what do you like/don't like about it? - 9/9/2007 5:52:27 PM   
SeeksOnlyOne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ocilla

Jello Salad still lives in the South. 
Being a former"foodie" pro though.  I have had some fun deconstructing a few of the more classic Jello Salads and turning them into a dish that the critics rave over...kind of felt like a really good practical joke.

There are really good reasons for why the food went so wrong. I may revisit yall and share the food culture history that I know but I have a feeling that as this is Eion's op thread that he may weight in on it instead.


heck, all my relatives have their jello molds hangin on the wall-the old copper ones......this aint normal?

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it aint no good til it hurts just a little bit....jimmy somerville

in those moments of solitude, does everyone sometimes think they are insane? or is it just me?

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RE: 50's household: what do you like/don't like about it? - 9/9/2007 5:55:59 PM   
SeeksOnlyOne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

One thing I do remember is that married men from that era sometimes would sometimes buy women house-hold appliances as gifts for holidays and birthdays - and they thought (some of them, apparently) that this was a "thoughtful" thing to do (it was, IMO, an acknowledgment that a 1950's (or early 60's) female with a family spent a large portion of her time on housework).

My grandfather worked as a salesman for Graybar Electric Company - and he was always giving my grandmother the newest appliance for a gift. An electric knife. A new vacuum cleaner. A new toaster. A new washing machine, etc.  She appeared to be happy about it, too.

My mother, however, was pretty savvy to the implications related to this kind of gift-giving. My dad gave her a new vacuum cleaner once for Christmas. It was the last time he ever gave her that kind of gift, hehe. She did not want new appliances for gifts- she wanted things like real perfume, new clothes, and to be taken out to dinner in a nice restaurant. Fortunately for my dad, he was a fast learner.

My mom knew nothing about BDSM, I don't think - but I am pretty convinced that if she had - she would definitely have been a Domme.

- Susan


all dad ever bought mom was appliances and lingerie....i remember goin to rich's with him every year to get her "petticoats"a nd bras and panties for Christmas........lol-suddenly that memory is not as pure as it has seemed all my life......

well she did get huge diamonds for the 25th wedding anniversary....and a watch thats a knock out.......

im off to try to erase the wonderful shopping memories now....i was so sure i was adopted cause they never did the nasty

< Message edited by SeeksOnlyOne -- 9/9/2007 5:59:17 PM >


_____________________________

it aint no good til it hurts just a little bit....jimmy somerville

in those moments of solitude, does everyone sometimes think they are insane? or is it just me?

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RE: 50's household: what do you like/don't like about it? - 9/9/2007 6:00:01 PM   
Grlwithboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: gypsygrl

quote:

That said, I'd like to know more about your findings and about whether the account you take to be historically accurate is grist for any of your own kinky considerations.


Most of my research involved changing structures of authority that accompanied the shift from free market to monopoly capitalism (for lack of a better word) and the emergence of a scientific culture and how this impacted the family.  In my mind, by the 1950's, patriarchy had been supplanted by a form of technocracy leaving 'fathers' with little authority in the home.  Father didn't know best.  Neither did mother. (Technocracy didn't immediately replace patriarchy...there was a mediating phase, that was maternalistic in orientation, where middle class women looked to 'the home and family' as their 'domain')  Substantively, I've researched the life of Dr. Spock (the baby doc); the history of the beech nut baby food company; and the birth control movement in order to explore how 'science' came to be seen as a hegemonic cultural authority and the relationship between scientific authority and processes of commodification (you can probably intuit the influence of cultural marxism, here).  

As for how/if my research has influenced my kinky considerations, in the last 5 or 6 years, I've gone through various preoccupations.  I suppose the most relevant would be an erotic interest in the sort of objectification engaged in by human service professionals along the lines of medical fetishes.   More of a Marcus Welby, M.D. thing than a  Father Knows Best thing. 

I agree that, when it comes to fetishes and the like, historical accuracy is quite besides the point. 



Do you think fundamentalism has risen in a reactionary response to "Science!" of the fifties? I think women who expressed a submissive response based in religion at that point were probably looked on as "Bible bangers" - a decidedly stigmatized thing.


< Message edited by Grlwithboy -- 9/9/2007 6:01:06 PM >

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RE: 50's household: what do you like/don't like about it? - 9/9/2007 7:47:36 PM   
ocilla


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cracking me up...

quote:

ORIGINAL: e01n

Actually, the version I think works best for me is Bread Winner=Submissive... basically staying with the idea of "now someone else is in charge." Sort of topping from the bottom a bit, but...

Then again, since by my career in the 50s & 60s I'm a domestic, I identify with that a bit more. Kinda like "Mr. Belvedere with Benefits" within the relationship I'm exploring currently ... Not as good a pianist as Borge, but I can still practice a bit...


_____________________________

Ocilla

Nature is not a place to visit. It is home.
~ Gary Snyder


It takes a kinky village...

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RE: 50's household: what do you like/don't like about it? - 9/9/2007 8:04:15 PM   
ocilla


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Yep copper jello molds on the wall in the kithen as I write this.  lol

RICH's! Now you're talkin.  Miss that downtown store especially the pink pig.  Had a special pink pig wind breaker when I was a little girl - so very proud of it....

No decent chef uses knox - it's gelatine sheets only.  I have to say I did not truely grasp the elegance and potential of jellied foods until I cooked in Paris....champagne Jellee with chilled oysters, brunoise of lemon cucumber  and a sprig of water cress....a perfect amuse.
Making aspic from bones is not that hard  or even resource intensive, imo.... and often gelatine was made with seaweed.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SeeksOnlyOne

quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

One thing I do remember is that married men from that era sometimes would sometimes buy women house-hold appliances as gifts for holidays and birthdays - and they thought (some of them, apparently) that this was a "thoughtful" thing to do (it was, IMO, an acknowledgment that a 1950's (or early 60's) female with a family spent a large portion of her time on housework).

My grandfather worked as a salesman for Graybar Electric Company - and he was always giving my grandmother the newest appliance for a gift. An electric knife. A new vacuum cleaner. A new toaster. A new washing machine, etc.  She appeared to be happy about it, too.

My mother, however, was pretty savvy to the implications related to this kind of gift-giving. My dad gave her a new vacuum cleaner once for Christmas. It was the last time he ever gave her that kind of gift, hehe. She did not want new appliances for gifts- she wanted things like real perfume, new clothes, and to be taken out to dinner in a nice restaurant. Fortunately for my dad, he was a fast learner.

My mom knew nothing about BDSM, I don't think - but I am pretty convinced that if she had - she would definitely have been a Domme.

- Susan


all dad ever bought mom was appliances and lingerie....i remember goin to rich's with him every year to get her "petticoats"a nd bras and panties for Christmas........lol-suddenly that memory is not as pure as it has seemed all my life......

well she did get huge diamonds for the 25th wedding anniversary....and a watch thats a knock out.......

im off to try to erase the wonderful shopping memories now....i was so sure i was adopted cause they never did the nasty


_____________________________

Ocilla

Nature is not a place to visit. It is home.
~ Gary Snyder


It takes a kinky village...

(in reply to SeeksOnlyOne)
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RE: 50's household: what do you like/don't like about it? - 9/9/2007 9:41:03 PM   
Najakcharmer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ocilla
No decent chef uses knox - it's gelatine sheets only.  I have to say I did not truely grasp the elegance and potential of jellied foods until I cooked in Paris....champagne Jellee with chilled oysters, brunoise of lemon cucumber  and a sprig of water cress....a perfect amuse.


If you have only a few hours left to finish your centerpiece and you run out of the authentic calves' foot jelly you just spent four hours boiling down to glaze it with, Knox isn't a half-bad instant fix if you don't have any gelatin sheets handy and the only store open in close enough range is WalMart.

quote:

Making aspic from bones is not that hard  or even resource intensive, imo.... and often gelatine was made with seaweed.


Agar jelly works all right especially for sweets, but for savories I personally prefer bone and connective tissue.  And in a small kitchen, it does suck up a fair bit of your resources to keep a massive stockpot going for that long and to strain and clarify the results.

(in reply to ocilla)
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RE: 50's household: what do you like/don't like about it? - 9/9/2007 9:57:15 PM   
xoxi


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Dude. I'm never eating Jello again.

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RE: 50's household: what do you like/don't like about it? - 9/10/2007 1:45:19 AM   
SeeksOnlyOne


Posts: 2012
Joined: 5/14/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ocilla

Yep copper jello molds on the wall in the kithen as I write this.  lol

RICH's! Now you're talkin.  Miss that downtown store especially the pink pig.  Had a special pink pig wind breaker when I was a little girl - so very proud of it....



man the pink pig was so cool........i always got to ride that when we went shopping there dor moms unmentionables......and a treat from the lil bakery in the store.....sighs......

_____________________________

it aint no good til it hurts just a little bit....jimmy somerville

in those moments of solitude, does everyone sometimes think they are insane? or is it just me?

(in reply to ocilla)
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RE: 50's household: what do you like/don't like about it? - 9/10/2007 1:49:39 AM   
eyesopened


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What i like about the 50s household is that no one had to guess about their value in the relationship.  my mother taught me this "you can never make your man come home, you can only make him want to"  How simple and lovely is this?  Women working outside the home did nothing more than to dilute the workforce so that everybody makes less money and now it pretty much takes two incomes to support a family and the kids get to be raised by strangers in day care.  How simply awful is this?

i was born in 1953.  i iron.  i don't think a floor is really clean unless i'm down there on my hands and knees.  i use cleanser in the bathroom.  i know how to bake from scratch and my bead machine is called an oven.  i actually know how to darn socks, hem with needle and thread.  i have never regretted learning how to do these things.


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RE: 50's household: what do you like/don't like about it? - 9/10/2007 2:41:35 AM   
InkedMaster


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Now that's what I'm talking about!!!

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RE: 50's household: what do you like/don't like about it? - 9/10/2007 2:57:14 AM   
ExSteelAgain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: gypsygrl
Most of my research involved changing structures of authority that accompanied the shift from free market to monopoly capitalism (for lack of a better word) and the emergence of a scientific culture and how this impacted the family.  In my mind, by the 1950's, patriarchy had been supplanted by a form of technocracy leaving 'fathers' with little authority in the home.  Father didn't know best.  Neither did mother. (Technocracy didn't immediately replace patriarchy...there was a mediating phase, that was maternalistic in orientation, where middle class women looked to 'the home and family' as their 'domain')  Substantively, I've researched the life of Dr. Spock (the baby doc); the history of the beech nut baby food company; and the birth control movement in order to explore how 'science' came to be seen as a hegemonic cultural authority and the relationship between scientific authority and processes of commodification (you can probably intuit the influence of cultural marxism, here).  


I find your view to be one more of the late 60’s and after. I perceive the 50’s as an America that was represented by the working dad and stay at home mom without the secular influences. The dad had lots of power and divorce was rare although, I suspect, abuse was prevalent also. Look at the low divorce statistics from the 50’s.

It wasn’t until the late 60’s that feminism became an active movement with equal rights for women and working moms became the standard. Cultural Marxism rightfully gives us the impression that the 50’s era was one of a white male society that influenced movies, literature, psychology and business. That era was something we moved past with the help of an authoritative scientific community that recognized the rights of women, minorities and the poor while reminding us that the earth orbits around the sun, not the other way around.

The flaw of the concept of the 50’s household has always been a misconception that the women were happily following the orders of their dominant males when it was more of a societal structure that cultural Marxism explains so well. Domme women would have certainly felt a little out of place.

But I don’t get too hung up on any of this. D/s, BDSM, has always flourished even in the most reactionary or radically militant authoritarian societies, in every sexual variety we can imagine, and always will.

< Message edited by ExSteelAgain -- 9/10/2007 2:58:41 AM >


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RE: 50's household: what do you like/don't like about it? - 9/10/2007 4:33:40 AM   
gypsygrl


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From: new york state
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quote:

I find your view to be one more of the late 60’s and after. I perceive the 50’s as an America that was represented by the working dad and stay at home mom without the secular influences. The dad had lots of power and divorce was rare although, I suspect, abuse was prevalent also. Look at the low divorce statistics from the 50’s.

It wasn’t until the late 60’s that feminism became an active movement with equal rights for women and working moms became the standard. Cultural Marxism rightfully gives us the impression that the 50’s era was one of a white male society that influenced movies, literature, psychology and business. That era was something we moved past with the help of an authoritative scientific community that recognized the rights of women, minorities and the poor while reminding us that the earth orbits around the sun, not the other way around.


Right and this is exactly the view that peeves me. :)  The 'new' women's history that got off the ground in the 1980's in response to the feminist movement of the 60's and 70's, has, in my mind, dug up enough evidence,  to require a revision in this view.  Much of one's view of 'large' historical trends depends on what kinds of evidence you're working with.  By the 1920's social commentators began to notice an increase in divorce rates, and it was considered to be common in the 1950's.  Domestic violence was first 'discovered' (defined as a problem) in the 1870's, and because of the nature of abuse, we don't really know if its been decreasing, increasing or constant over the last 100 years or so.  All we know about is 'reported abuse.' 

Many of the near professions (nursing, social work, teaching, home economics--classically female occupations) and were well established by the middle of the 20th century giving women opportunities for working outside the home.  The majority of  married women stayed home when their children were young, but most also worked as soon as their children were old enough.  The post-World War II period was characterized by a reversal of these trends (referred to as 'the missing generation' by some historians because of the spooky way women disappeared from public participation) but the revival of the woman's movement in the 1960's and 70's seems to have set history 'back on course.'  The 60's and 70's didn't invent feminism, but revived it.  The origins of feminism go back to the 1850's.

There's other things that can be looked at in figuring out the historical trend.  One thing is the location of childbirth.  In 1900 95% of babies were born at home, and, so long as births were done at home, women had a substantial role in deciding how babies would be born.  By 1955, only 5% of births were home births, and the vast majority of babies were born in hospitals.  Accordingly, it would have been medical professionals who determined birthing practices and they who had the ultimate authority there.  The same thing with birth control.  When birth control laws began to be liberalized in the 1930's following the supreme court decision that the Comstock laws were unconstitutional, it was also medicalized, that is, birth control came to be seen as something to be regulated by doctors.

quote:

But I don’t get too hung up on any of this. D/s, BDSM, has always flourished even in the most reactionary or radically militant authoritarian societies, in every sexual variety we can imagine, and always will.


I don't know if bd/sm has always flourished but I'm confident that  people will always find a way to follow their bliss regardless of what kind of society they live in.


quote:

Do you think fundamentalism has risen in a reactionary response to "Science!" of the fifties? I think women who expressed a submissive response based in religion at that point were probably looked on as "Bible bangers" - a decidedly stigmatized thing.


I think there's a connection particularly given the secularization of mainstream religion and its accomodation of a scientific worldview. 

















_____________________________

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RE: 50's household: what do you like/don't like about it? - 9/10/2007 4:49:42 AM   
catize


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quote:

Women working outside the home did nothing more than to dilute the workforce   

Ummm.  Most teachers, nurses, social workers, factory workers, housekeepers were women.  They were generally the only kinds of work women were allowed, and because it was deemed 'women's work' (as in less important) the pay was low.

quote:

  How simply awful is this?

Not awful at all if you are like me and never wanted to stay home.  Not awful at all for women who are not married and are able to support themselves. 

quote:

  i was born in 1953.  i iron.  i don't think a floor is really clean unless i'm down there on my hands and knees.  i use cleanser in the bathroom.  i know how to bake from scratch and my bead machine is called an oven.  i actually know how to darn socks, hem with needle and thread.  i have never regretted learning how to do these things.

I was born the same year and I also was taught all these things but I do not do them well at all.  I say thriow out the hole-y socks and buy a new pair!

< Message edited by catize -- 9/10/2007 4:51:10 AM >


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