RE: moral standard in bdsm

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chey -> RE: moral standard in bdsm (9/9/2007 8:53:36 AM)
yuyu to echo so many of the posts, my morals are simply part of who I am. I have been trying to think of anything that may be different where D/s is concerned but truthfully the two worlds are not seperate. I do not live in one world and when time allows slip into another. It is more like, I am always submissive and aware of it, and when time allows we play. Dealbreakers other than dishonesty? They have to exist, relationships end for other reasons. I just cannot think of any. Even in the case of dishonesty I would hope that before we threw in the towel, either of us, that we would try to talk it through and see if what we had was worth saving....or if it was possible. * on a side note to the D/s being superior. I do not personally think it is in general, however, if some vanilla relationships practiced the honesty and communication aspect they may find themselves happier. And I am not saying their relationships would last longer because I am not sure statistically we would find D/s relationships lasting any longer. Our relationships are what we put into them no matter what kind they are. One thing I know for sure in my own personal experience is that I fall harder within a D/s relationship and I give more of myself. So in that aspect for me personally D/s is superior in that I feel more alive! But I also had a long term relationship with a woman many years back and did not find that type of relationship superior to the rest of them. At least not in general, but of course for me at that time it rocked far above any relationship I had had previously. So maybe that is the mindset of those who talk about D/s being better.

AquaticSub -> RE: moral standard in bdsm (9/9/2007 9:31:19 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: HeavansKeeper D/s involves more trust and understanding than a vanilla relationship. Kinky sex where I get tied up and a knife is run over my skin requires more trust faster, but the relationship itself doesn't. quote: It is also less tolerant of lies and omissions. Not really. Depending on how you look at it, d/s relationships are more tolerant of lies and omissions because whatever master says goes. quote: Fears come out much faster, and trust runs much deeper. I completely disagree. Fears should come out when the person is ready to share and the whole "trust runs deeper" thing is just flattering ourselves. quote: Spanking a slave is magically assault if she says she didn't want it. I don't live my life in terms of "well she could like and I'd be fucked." But it's true. Of course. And consenual sex turns into rape if she decides that even though she said yes loud and clear, she really didn't want it and was forced in some way. We didn't corner the market on "it was consenual, but now it isn't." quote: The trust needed to warrant a voluntary M/s relationship not only takes time to build, but cannot afford to be shaken. The trust it takes to build any relationship worth having takes time and no relationship should have it's trust destroyed. However, if no strong m/s relationship can not weather the blow of trust being destroyed and then rebuilding it, than I would say that m/s relationships are actually weaker than vanilla ones. I have watched those in long term (30+ years) vanilla relationships where the trust was completely shattered, yet they made the choice to try again. Trust was rebuilt slowly and now their relationship is stronger than ever. quote: These, of course, are only my opinions. Of course. And these are only mine.

MasterJBK -> RE: moral standard in bdsm (9/9/2007 10:42:58 AM)
I would think it would be dishonesty and getting hurt when you didn't expect it by your Master (talking about physical pain).

ownedgirlie -> RE: moral standard in bdsm (9/9/2007 1:23:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KnightofMists Agreed!!! In many cases those who spout the Lifestyle is superior crap is rooted in their own security and esteem issues. Make the world they are apart of superior... therefore they are better! If break those rose coloured glasses... where does that leave them? I would of course agree Any relationship is what you choose to make it.... and many choose that the Lifestyle relationship is superior than any other type of lifestyle relationship (vanilla, religious or whatever)...... of course... until the relationship ends or hits a crisis and then you find some of them questioning their involvement in the lifestyle.... instead of questioning the specific relationship. I am curious though, why I only see the black and white views represented regarding this issue, when there is so much grey. If my relationship as his slave requires more trust and faith from me than any previous vanilla relationship did, why is it automatically assumed (at least it seems to be from what I read in these threads) that I think D/s is better than vanilla, or more superior? I know many vanilla relationships that require the same level of trust as my own, and I know many D/s relationships that don't. So why lump everyone who says D/s requires more trust for them into the elitist category? I'm not asking you specifically, KoM, but I am using your words to launch this question I have.

AquaticSub -> RE: moral standard in bdsm (9/9/2007 1:31:56 PM)
The issue is not someone saying "My relationship with my owner/slave requires more trust and faith than any vanilla relationship I've had". The issue is someone saying, as many do, that "All d/s relationships require more trust and faith than any vanilla relationship."

ownedgirlie -> RE: moral standard in bdsm (9/9/2007 1:41:12 PM)
Hi Aquatic, I don't often see anyone say "all" but it does happen, yes. Sometimes people just say "D/s requires more trust." I've come to understand when people say that, it's just their opinion for themselves and they don't necessarily need to put the "for me" qualifier in front of it. But in all honesty I'm still working on that part. Sometimes it irks me, sometimes it doesn't (for example, when others proclaim what a true Master is, I don't feel the need to counter it because I know it's just their opinion and they're entitled to it and if it's different than mine, more power to 'em). But why does "more trust" translate to "therefore it's better?" That's what perplexes me. Why does "requires more effort" equate to "is superior?" I'm honestly curious about this, because it seems like a strange conclusion to jump to (or as Ron would say, saunter to), and maybe I'm having a loopy moment but I don't get it. In the past I have said my relationship required more of these things for me and was I called an elitist and accused of thinking I was uber-slave and insecure. So I'm not sure there is any way of getting around it. Makes me think the contrary view is just as insecure as the view I'm accused of having, and I don't like thinking that way, so I must be missing something.

AquaticSub -> RE: moral standard in bdsm (9/9/2007 1:53:45 PM)
As you have said, there are d/s relationships that have a lot less trust than what you personally have in your relationship. If the statement "d/s relationships require more trust" was true, those relationships would not exist. While I would agree that you have to trust someone a great deal to engage in certain kinks, saying that the relationship itself requires more trust doesn't make any sense to me and does have the feel of the "d/s is superior" way of thinking. I also don't believe d/s relationships require any more effort, on the whole. Some d/s relationships will require more effort than some vanilla and some vanilla will require more effort than some d/s. As I said, to me whole mess implies superiority to me. The reasoning being that generally, when something requires more trust, more effort, is more difficult it is regarded as "better". Black belt is harder to achieve than orange belt. It takes more effort, more determination, more skill so it is a greater honor, commands greater respect.

ownedgirlie -> RE: moral standard in bdsm (9/9/2007 2:15:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AquaticSub While I would agree that you have to trust someone a great deal to engage in certain kinks, saying that the relationship itself requires more trust doesn't make any sense to me and does have the feel of the "d/s is superior" way of thinking. I also don't believe d/s relationships require any more effort, on the whole. Some d/s relationships will require more effort than some vanilla and some vanilla will require more effort than some d/s. As I said, to me whole mess implies superiority to me. OK so I'll ask, since you did not qualify the highlighted text to reflect for your relationship only, are you speaking on behalf of all D/s relationships? (Playing devil's advocate here). And wouldn't that be a superior platform from which to speak? Didn't you just now do what others have done, only to the opposite effect? Those who say D/s does require more effort are obviously speaking their own beliefs as you have done, yet are speaking for the masses just as they did. I'm not picking on you, Aquatic. I'm just trying to see what the difference is. It seems to be ok to say they do not require more (pick your subject here), but it is not ok to say they do? quote: The reasoning being that generally, when something requires more trust, more effort, is more difficult it is regarded as "better". Black belt is harder to achieve than orange belt. It takes more effort, more determination, more skill so it is a greater honor, commands greater respect. I don't equate D/s with black belts. Unless of course you're talking about the implement he uses to hit me with...heh. Some would see requiring more effort as a bad thing. I think it is an incorrect notion to assume someone means better. And I'm speaking for myself only, and not for all relationships as a whole.

AquaticSub -> RE: moral standard in bdsm (9/9/2007 2:22:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie OK so I'll ask, since you did not qualify the highlighted text to reflect for your relationship only, are you speaking on behalf of all D/s relationships? (Playing devil's advocate here). And wouldn't that be a superior platform from which to speak? Didn't you just now do what others have done, only to the opposite effect? Those who say D/s does require more effort are obviously speaking their own beliefs as you have done, yet are speaking for the masses just as they did. As I said: I do not believe that d/s relationships require more effort, more trust, more anything as a whole. Some d/s relationships require more than some vanilla and some vanilla require more than some d/s. I am not saying that all d/s relationships are the same. I am saying that they are different and that one can not say that all d/s relationships require more trust. quote: I don't equate D/s with black belts. Unless of course you're talking about the implement he uses to hit me with...heh. Some would see requiring more effort as a bad thing. I think it is an incorrect notion to assume someone means better. And I'm speaking for myself only, and not for all relationships as a whole. My point was not about black belts. My point was that it is human nature to generally regard something that takes more effort, more patience, more skill, more anything as better. If it takes more skill to make creme bulee than it does to make jell-o which will be regarded as the greater creation? Edited for about a million typos

breatheasone -> RE: moral standard in bdsm (9/9/2007 2:23:09 PM)
yuyu777....nice question.... I have not read all the replies...so i'll just respond to your original post(OP) I do indeed have the same morals in "the lifestyle" as i did before. My morals are also the same with everyone... as for a deal breaker...yes i have them...its kinda like porn...i'll know it when i see it LOL.

Bobkgin -> RE: moral standard in bdsm (9/9/2007 2:45:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie OK so I'll ask, since you did not qualify the highlighted text to reflect for your relationship only, are you speaking on behalf of all D/s relationships? (Playing devil's advocate here). And wouldn't that be a superior platform from which to speak? Didn't you just now do what others have done, only to the opposite effect? Those who say D/s does require more effort are obviously speaking their own beliefs as you have done, yet are speaking for the masses just as they did. I'm not picking on you, Aquatic. I'm just trying to see what the difference is. It seems to be ok to say they do not require more (pick your subject here), but it is not ok to say they do? "I think" the more appropriate question might be: Must we all speak our minds starting with one of the following formal openings: "I believe...", "I think...", "From my point of view...", "In my opinion..."? Why can we not take it for granted that everyone will assume whatever we say is our opinion? Why do some insist on assuming that whatever we say is intended to be heard as an announcement from God? "From my point of view", that is simply projecting someone's insecurity issues onto another because the individual expresses him/herself with confidence. Another's self-confidence can irritate insecurity issues in some people. "In my opinion..."

AquaticSub -> RE: moral standard in bdsm (9/9/2007 2:59:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Bobkgin Why can we not take it for granted that everyone will assume whatever we say is our opinion? Because experience with humans, both d/s and not, has taught us otherwise?

camille65 -> RE: moral standard in bdsm (9/9/2007 3:03:47 PM)
Which is why so many use IMO, IMNSHO etc. It is frustrating but there are times when it is not inclusionary so it helps to write it each time. So, that is my opinion on why self opinions have to be mentioned. On the OP Until I saw the question it didn't occur to me that I could have different sets of morals for different occasions. [;)] And in the vein of it being my opinion, my D/s relationships have been deeper than the others but that is only from my eyes.

kyraofMists -> RE: moral standard in bdsm (9/9/2007 3:04:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AquaticSub quote: ORIGINAL: Bobkgin Why can we not take it for granted that everyone will assume whatever we say is our opinion? Because experience with humans, both d/s and not, has taught us otherwise? It also requires a person to make assumptions, which in my experience hinders effective communication rather than improves it. I have found that effective communication happens more often if people say exactly what they mean rather than relying on others to assume what they mean. Knight's Kyra

AquaticSub -> RE: moral standard in bdsm (9/9/2007 3:08:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kyraofMists It also requires a person to make assumptions, which in my experience hinders effective communication rather than improves it. I have found that effective communication happens more often if people say exactly what they mean rather than relying on others to assume what they mean. Knight's Kyra That too. [:)]

curiouspet55 -> RE: moral standard in bdsm (9/9/2007 6:05:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: yuyu777 what's your moral standard when you are in a D/s relationship Is it the same as the "usual vanilla world standard"? Is there anything else other than dishonesty as your deal breaker? Yes it is the same moral standard. Honesty, open communication, monogamy. Other than dishonesty, a submissive man, or one interested in blood/scat/children/animals. cp55

KnightofMists -> RE: moral standard in bdsm (9/9/2007 6:29:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie So why lump everyone who says D/s requires more trust for them into the elitist category? A: Because Saying "D/s require more trust than a vanilla Relationship" Is actually stating one is more than another regardless of who you are... and such a statement is immediately putting D/s into the elitist catergory.... B Saying..."My D/s Relationship requires more trust than I needed in a vanilla relationship" ... This is very specific that the person is talking about themselves and not about D/s Relationships. The two have entirely different meaning communicated. I not going to assume because you said A that you meant B. If you meant B then Say B.

MadRabbit -> RE: moral standard in bdsm (9/9/2007 6:39:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Bobkgin Why can we not take it for granted that everyone will assume whatever we say is our opinion? Because certain people have a really bad habit of speaking for everyone, trying to establish some community standard, presenting information as a kind of dogma, and preaching the definitions for things out of a "textbook" that doesn't exist? And perhaps because, if we all use some style while writing, it makes it easier to spot those certain individuals? quote: ORIGINAL: Bobkgin "From my point of view", that is simply projecting someone's insecurity issues onto another because the individual expresses him/herself with confidence. Might want to replace that "C word" at the end with a "P word" called "pomposity"

Bobkgin -> RE: moral standard in bdsm (9/9/2007 6:45:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AquaticSub quote: ORIGINAL: Bobkgin Why can we not take it for granted that everyone will assume whatever we say is our opinion? Because experience with humans, both d/s and not, has taught us otherwise? And where in the above quote did you say "In my opinion...", "I think...", "From my point of view..." or any of the other formal openings you are telling us to use? Are you now guilty of that which these formal openings are supposed to avoid: giving the appearance of providing a pronouncement from God? And if you can do it without concern, why not the rest of us? Because you will view us differently than you'd have us view you? And isn't that the point to my question which you've quoted above? If you can make such statements and assume we will all know it is your opinion, why can we not do the same?

MadRabbit -> RE: moral standard in bdsm (9/9/2007 6:46:25 PM)
In my point of view, (Flaring of insecurities has been avoid) one of the reasons why people constantly pontificate about D/S relationships being better than vanilla relationships is because they got on websites like this and went to BDSM communities to learn about D/S relationships and by doing so, subsequently learned about the relationship skills that THEY SHOULD HAVE HAD for their past vanilla relationships.

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