RE: moral standard in bdsm (Full Version)

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NControlofU -> RE: moral standard in bdsm (9/9/2007 6:49:35 PM)

Theres no difference in my moral standards from one relationship to another.  My moral standards remain consitent.  Deal breakers would be smoking, drinking more than a moderate amount, drug use and anything that is contrary to my moral standards.  I dont choose to associate with anyone I consider to be a negative energy.

quote:

ORIGINAL: yuyu777

what's your moral standard when you are in a D/s relationship
Is it the same as the "usual vanilla world standard"?
Is there anything else other than dishonesty as your deal breaker?



MadRabbit -> RE: moral standard in bdsm (9/9/2007 6:50:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

Why can we not take it for granted that everyone will assume whatever we say is our opinion?



Because experience with humans, both d/s and not, has taught us otherwise?


And where in the above quote did you say "In my opinion...", "I think...", "From my point of view..." or any of the other formal openings you are telling us to use?

Are you now guilty of that which these formal openings are supposed to avoid: giving the appearance of providing a pronouncement from God?

And if you can do it without concern, why not the rest of us?

Because you will view us differently than you'd have us view you?

And isn't that the point to my question which you've quoted above?

If you can make such statements and assume we will all know it is your opinion, why can we not do the same?



Personally, AquaticSub doesnt have a reputation about bragging about how she is an experienced BDSM expert, directly stating she is in fact here to teach everyone, and speaking in absolutes.

Perhaps you can start a new thread for your bitching and crying.



AquaticSub -> RE: moral standard in bdsm (9/9/2007 7:03:25 PM)

Well ya see, because it ended with a question mark you were supposed to assume that I was only suggesting a reason as to why people might prefer it when people state specifically "this is my opinion".

See what happens when you leave things for people to assume your intention?

That and, for the record, if you can tell me where I said "Everyone should use 'in my opinion' in front of all their statements", I'd be much obliged.



ExquisiteFeline -> RE: moral standard in bdsm (9/9/2007 7:05:47 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

So why lump everyone who says D/s requires more trust for them into the elitist category?


A: Because Saying "D/s require more trust than a vanilla Relationship" Is actually stating one is more than another regardless of who you are... and such a statement is immediately putting D/s into the elitist catergory....

B Saying..."My D/s Relationship requires more trust than I needed in a vanilla relationship" ... This is very specific that the person is talking about themselves and not about D/s Relationships.


The two have entirely different meaning communicated. I not going to assume because you said A that you meant B. If you meant B then Say B.





(Well i will go with B, since i understand my relationship better than what is considered a lumped understanding of D/s...)
Personally, honesty and trust have nothing to do with an elite understanding of D/s, they should be fundamentals to all people, however human nature usually prevails a sense of selfishness rather than selflessness. But i think the difference is that within D/s is that a lot of people like to pride themselves on their self respective, integral nature, and are committed to work upon their self understanding, and understanding others. i guess it depends if one is approaching D/s from a moral or spiritual journey or if they have just found a selfish outlet for S/m.
There are elitists everywhere in all aspects, there are even those who believe they are elite, in an elite community of D/s.
i dont think that it is so much as a 'requirement' for D/s, but it certainly does help, if you are in the company of a Sadist, its a lot harder to get down in a position of submission to allow the Sad to whip your ass if there is no trust. Alternately being in a violent vanilla relationship 'trust' is out the window, one has no choice but to submit to the impulsiveness and lack of self control, in the moment, or flight/fight.

i dont think it is an elitist understanding, however i think the extremes that D/s can go to, do require a values system inline with the manner of the relationship, otherwise it could be boarding domestic violence.

In other trust issues, a Dom should clearly be able to state his position, if he require extra play, he can state that being the Dominant. i dont necessarily believe that D/s is elitist, but a lot of Doms think they are elite for one, personally, in my understanding is that there are people that are dishonest, and people that are honest, it has nothing to do with D/s, except i would expect more integrity from someone who considers themselves to have the qualities of a Master.



Bobkgin -> RE: moral standard in bdsm (9/9/2007 7:09:17 PM)

To no one in particular:

Is it a reasonable, rational, mature assumption to believe anyone who states an opinion without saying "this is my opinion" or its equivalent is suffering from a hyper-inflated ego and believes him/herself to be the Emissary of God?

When is it a reasonable, rational, mature assumption to believe someone is suffering from a hyper-inflated ego and believes him/herself to be the Emissary of God?



ExquisiteFeline -> RE: moral standard in bdsm (9/9/2007 7:16:58 PM)

*and here we are back to the BDSM Ego world cup, as we have our most Godly Dominants battle it out on the forums...*
Jeez get a grip hold.



AquaticSub -> RE: moral standard in bdsm (9/9/2007 7:24:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

To no one in particular:

Is it a reasonable, rational, mature assumption to believe anyone who states an opinion without saying "this is my opinion" or its equivalent is suffering from a hyper-inflated ego and believes him/herself to be the Emissary of God?

When is it a reasonable, rational, mature assumption to believe someone is suffering from a hyper-inflated ego and believes him/herself to be the Emissary of God?


Well ya see Bob, if you would step off your soapbox you would see that no one has said "If you don't tack IMO at the end your statements you must believe yourself a God!". What someone has said is that they object to the glorifying of BDSM and d/s by talking about in terms of more.

In fact, skimming back over the thread, I'm not sure where the term "God" came into this discussion but I think you are the one who introduced it.



Bobkgin -> RE: moral standard in bdsm (9/9/2007 7:29:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

Well ya see, because it ended with a question mark you were supposed to assume that I was only suggesting a reason as to why people might prefer it when people state specifically "this is my opinion".


Well I did assume that, as I assume everything anyone says to be their opinion.

But as I understand your position: I shouldn't assume that at all.

quote:


See what happens when you leave things for people to assume your intention?


See above.

I was not confused.

The confusion comes in when people assume that the statement of an opinion is intended to be an announcement from God.

I see no solid basis for such an assumption, unless one wishes to indulge in stereotypes and assume everyone who states an opinion in such a manner is suffering from a hyper-inflated ego.

And I've not seen much use for stereotypes of that kind.

quote:


That and, for the record, if you can tell me where I said "Everyone should use 'in my opinion' in front of all their statements", I'd be much obliged.


Post 32, Page 2.

You've made very clear that statements that do not include some clear sign that the opinion is an opinion should be assumed to be the statements of a hyper-inflated ego.

Otherwise this is a non-issue.

You say it your way, I'll say it mine. If you want to assume I believe myself to be an emissary of God, that would be your issue, not mine.

Seems fair to me.



ExquisiteFeline -> RE: moral standard in bdsm (9/9/2007 7:32:21 PM)

*pulls on a short skirt, chellekitty's good girl undies, and tight t shirt, grabs my pom poms, bouncing and dancing "Give me a D, give me an O, give me a M..." and the crowd roars, as we go into another round*



jaxnsax -> RE: moral standard in bdsm (9/9/2007 7:32:36 PM)

Greetings
My morals are my morals; no matter what I am doing or who I am involved with.
Dishonesty by itself does not necessarily mean that a relationship is over; sometimes forgiveness is possible. This, of course, is only my opinion on the subject.
jaxon



FangsNfeet -> RE: moral standard in bdsm (9/9/2007 7:35:33 PM)

In my BDSM relationship like most relationships, we both talked, understood, and came to terms with what we want. We have rules and an agreement with one another on what and what not to do. No matter what happens, we're not going to keep secrets. If mistakes ever happen, neither of us are going to live a lie.  



AquaticSub -> RE: moral standard in bdsm (9/9/2007 7:36:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

Well I did assume that, as I assume everything anyone says to be their opinion.


That wasn't my opinion. It was a suggestion of a reason why. My opinion is that it makes communication more effective in a medium prone to miscommunications.
quote:


quote:


That and, for the record, if you can tell me where I said "Everyone should use 'in my opinion' in front of all their statements", I'd be much obliged.


Post 32, Page 2.

You've made very clear that statements that do not include some clear sign that the opinion is an opinion should be assumed to be the statements of a hyper-inflated ego.

Otherwise this is a non-issue.

You say it your way, I'll say it mine. If you want to assume I believe myself to be an emissary of God, that would be your issue, not mine.

Seems fair to me.



Again Bob... a suggestion. The phrase

quote:




Because experience with humans, both d/s and not, has taught us otherwise?

does not equal "Everyone must stick IMO in front of everything!" It is, again simply a reason why doing so is useful. Experience with people has taught me that people can not be trusted to interpet text correctly when you are leaving things to be assumed.

And Bob... nowhere have I mentioned anything about not sticking an IMHO means a hyber-inflated ego. My posts here have stated that A) I do not believe d/s relationships to be special, B)That general human nature is to regard things discussed in terms of "more" as better and that C) Sticking IMO to opinion statements aides in effective communication.



ExquisiteFeline -> RE: moral standard in bdsm (9/9/2007 7:42:07 PM)

*Bounces into a star jump position, shaking poms poms furiously, brings arms together above head, then down to feet, bending in front of the crowd, with DOM wrote across ass, and shakes ass furiously...*



chellekitty -> RE: moral standard in bdsm (9/9/2007 7:58:37 PM)

omg you slut! showing my panties to everyone! and hey! where did you get a pair of my panties!



ExquisiteFeline -> RE: moral standard in bdsm (9/9/2007 8:20:10 PM)

i stole them from your laundry basket and washed them in hot water last night ( sorry i accidentally had my red cheerleader skirt in the wash too, so your nice good girl undies are now pink, but now they look like sweet girl undies:) i had a feeling there would have a rematch today... this world cup is like the footy, once the warm weather hits you think the season is over... but it goes on...
*flashes all kitty nipples to chellekitty*

anyone know the scores yet? ok might head towards the bar for a while...



chellekitty -> RE: moral standard in bdsm (9/9/2007 9:53:25 PM)

*roots around to see if she can find 8 nipple clamps....damned kittys....*



ownedgirlie -> RE: moral standard in bdsm (9/10/2007 1:20:54 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

As I said: I do not believe that d/s relationships require more effort, more trust, more anything as a whole. Some d/s relationships require more than some vanilla and some vanilla require more than some d/s.


I saw what you said, and that is exactly what I was questioning.  If I said "I believe that d/s relationships require more trust and effort as a whole" we would start seeing all kinds of posts trying to prove me otherwise. 

In your first post in this thread, you said "A d/s relationship isn't special"  A D/s relationship. 

If you said "My d/s relastionship does not require more effort or trust or anything as a whole than if it was a vanilla relationship" I would never have asked you to clarify.

Do you see my point?

quote:


I am not saying that all d/s relationships are the same. I am saying that they are different and that one can not say that all d/s relationships require more trust.


We agree.  Nor can one say that all d/s relationships do not require more trust.  Do we agree on that?


quote:


My point was not about black belts.

I know it wasn't.  But it was an apples to oranges comparison and it didn't work for me.

Let's try it this way - - Let's say I'm vanilla.  No D/s at all, ok?  And in my vanilla life, I have decided that I prefer to be married.  Let's say I think that marriage requires more trust, more commitment, more dedication to each other than not being married.  Let's say I think it is better to be married than not (a lot of people in the world have this view - which is likely why they get married).  Is that somehow being elitist about relationships?  I don't believe so.  But I see people expressing those views all the time. Growing up, it was the dream of many a girl to get married.  No one thought they were superior to anyone who did not want to get married.  They just thought that marriages mean a stronger bond. 

Now, I tend to have different beliefs about marriage, and do not see myself ever getting married again.  If I said I don't think marriage is necessary for a relationship, and I think that not being married is better, does that translate to thinking I am superior for not being married? 

The thing is, I won't speak for everybody.  I won't say "I believe...or...It is my opinion that D/s is better, or requires more of XYZ" because in leaving it at that, I am speaking for the masses.  I know better than to be so ignorant.  I know what is better for me.  It would be really presumptuous to speak on behalf of everyone in a specific kind of relationship "as a whole."  There was a time in my past when I did that.  I no longer do.

quote:


My point was that it is human nature to generally regard something that takes more effort, more patience, more skill, more anything as better.

Perhaps, although that is not an absolute rule.  Look at how joyous Merc and beth are in their relationship, and they say it's not work at all.  I think most here would be in agreement with me in saying their relationship is highly regarded.

But I understand where you're coming from.  This is why clarifying that D/s does not make your relationship better or more special is a more accurate statement than saying you believe D/s does not make relationships better...as a whole. 

quote:


If it takes more skill to make creme bulee than it does to make jell-o which will be regarded as the greater creation?


Hey now, you can make some magnificent things with that green wiggly stuff!

But I'd say if you're allergic to eggs, jello would be much better.  [8D]



ownedgirlie -> RE: moral standard in bdsm (9/10/2007 1:39:28 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

A:   Because Saying  "D/s require more trust than a vanilla Relationship"  Is actually stating one is more than another regardless of who you are... and  such a statement is immediately putting D/s into the elitist catergory....

Yes, if you think expressing that something might require more effort is an elistist point of view.  Maybe I'm just wired weird or something, because I don't translate that to "better than everyone else." 

However, let me ask you this - pretty much what I asked of Aquatic.  What then do you make of saying "D/s doesn't require more trust than a vanilla relationship"  You're still speaking for the masses, right?  Isn't that the part that's really reflecting elitism? 

quote:


B    Saying..."My D/s Relationship requires more trust than I needed in a vanilla relationship" ...  This is very specific that the person is talking about themselves and not about D/s Relationships.

Agreed.

quote:


The two have entirely different meaning communicated.  I not going to assume because you said A  that you meant B.  If you meant B then Say B. 


I agree with that as well.  But it works in both directions.  Speaking for the masses in any direction is not something I would encourage.  I couldn't say what's best for you any more than you could say what is best for me.  If I were to say "Your relationship with your girls is not any more special because it is D/s than if it were vanilla" I'd be speaking out of my ass, because how the hell can I know what is better for you...and what is not?  And maybe I'd be right, but I'd still be speaking out of my ass because the statement would not be based on anything I know about you, but about my own personal beliefs (hypothetical in this case, btw).

And I do see people critiquing others for feeling that their particular relationship requires more of whatever it is they think it requires more of.  It happened in this thread already.  I guess that's what had me perplexed.





AquaticSub -> RE: moral standard in bdsm (9/10/2007 4:00:49 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

In your first post in this thread, you said "A d/s relationship isn't special"  A D/s relationship. 

If you said "My d/s relastionship does not require more effort or trust or anything as a whole than if it was a vanilla relationship" I would never have asked you to clarify.


That would also be an incorrect statement. My d/s relationship requires more effort than some vanilla relationships and less than others. My feelings are still that d/s isn't special - it just feels that way because those inclined towards it have found what they like.
quote:



We agree.  Nor can one say that all d/s relationships do not require more trust.  Do we agree on that?


Yes. Some d/s relationships require more trust than some vanilla. And some vanilla require more trust than some d/s.
quote:


I know it wasn't.  But it was an apples to oranges comparison and it didn't work for me.

I disagree. It illustrates the point of when something is harder to achieve, it tends to more desirable.
quote:


quote:


My point was that it is human nature to generally regard something that takes more effort, more patience, more skill, more anything as better.

Perhaps, although that is not an absolute rule.  Look at how joyous Merc and beth are in their relationship, and they say it's not work at all.  I think most here would be in agreement with me in saying their relationship is highly regarded.

That would be exactly why I kept saying it was the general rule.
quote:


But I understand where you're coming from.  This is why clarifying that D/s does not make your relationship better or more special is a more accurate statement than saying you believe D/s does not make relationships better...as a whole. 

Actually d/s does make my personal relationship with Valyraen better and it makes it more special to me. But on whole, when compared with other vanilla relationships and other d/s relationships, I strongly feel that d/s simply isn't some special thing. It's just what we do because for whatever reason, it clicks with us.


quote:


quote:


If it takes more skill to make creme bulee than it does to make jell-o which will be regarded as the greater creation?


Hey now, you can make some magnificent things with that green wiggly stuff!

But I'd say if you're allergic to eggs, jello would be much better.  [8D]



I want some the blue jello now...

At any rate, it's about 7 in the morning and I'm sick so I hope some of this made sense.



ownedgirlie -> RE: moral standard in bdsm (9/10/2007 9:12:29 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub
That would also be an incorrect statement. My d/s relationship requires more effort than some vanilla relationships and less than others. My feelings are still that d/s isn't special - it just feels that way because those inclined towards it have found what they like.


OK.  I think I'm seeing the bigger picture of what you mean now.  D/s as a category of lifestyle isn't special.  Similarly to saying hetero lifestyles aren't special, or gay lifestyles aren't special, or marriage isn't special -  the use of "special" meaning something unque and superior.  I can understand that.  This is why you said "as a whole" before, and I misunderstood what you meant by that.  So I'm understanding it is your opinion that D/s, as a lifestyle category, isn't any more special overall than any other lifestyle category.  But that some D/s type relationships are more special to people than non D/s typs relationships, and vice versa.  Is this correct?

quote:


Yes. Some d/s relationships require more trust than some vanilla. And some vanilla require more trust than some d/s.


Agreed.

quote:


I disagree. It illustrates the point of when something is harder to achieve, it tends to more desirable.


OK.  I wasn't following at the time. 

quote:


Actually d/s does make my personal relationship with Valyraen better and it makes it more special to me. But on whole, when compared with other vanilla relationships and other d/s relationships, I strongly feel that d/s simply isn't some special thing. It's just what we do because for whatever reason, it clicks with us.


I'm getting where you're coming from now.

quote:


I want some the blue jello now...


I can't say I've ever had or even seen blue jello...heh.

quote:


At any rate, it's about 7 in the morning and I'm sick so I hope some of this made sense.


Between your being sick and my ridiculously extreme insomnia (got to sleep at 5:30 this morning), you made sense and I (finally) understood.  Thanks for your patience and for taking the time to explain your view to this sleepyhead.  I appreciate it!

I hope you feel better!



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