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RE: Can you be Patriotic as a U.S. citizen if you don't... - 9/11/2007 9:58:14 AM

SusanofO

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Okay - theroretically, I hear you - But (with all due respect) what about the fact that even though they've always done this shit, you are now able to read about it almost every day in the paper and on tv, and on websites?

To me - that says your "freedom of information" has not been curtailed to a point you can't bitch to your heart's content about its curtailment on a message board like this one. So how restricted are you?

Tell me - how is this exactly - going to affect your day to day life?

Your life - not "someone's" theortetical life out there - but yours, (or, okay, ours) on a daily basis - the average citizen's particular daily existence?

Am I not gong to be able to use my phone at certain times of day? I am not clear on how this affects me on a practical, daily level. Right now.

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 9/11/2007 10:07:11 AM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to SugarMyChurro)

Post #: 21

RE: Can you be Patriotic as a U.S. citizen if you don't... - 9/11/2007 10:01:12 AM

samboct

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I'm still not certain how the Republicans made the US flag "their" symbol. And if I can use SmokingGuns analogy to his pooch- well, I think we need to rub our current leaders noses in the messes they've made. But blindly following the Democrats doesn't seem to be doing very much either- 9 months after taking office (this is more than a third of the way in their 2 year term) seems like progress in Iraq isn't happening.

I'm reminded of a guy who was leading the Communist party in Germany in 1935-who was put on trial and prosecuted by Goring. Goring asked him if he wasn't a patriotic German- the guy (I've spaced his name) replied he certainly was- it was his job to lead the opposition to the Nazis! The trial was being broadcast at this point, and he had a lot of popular support. That's when the Nazis pulled the plug on broadcasting the news in real time. They wound up putting him away for a few years. Take home lesson- control the press (and the judiciary) and you've got the country.

To the OP- I'm always enraged by the claim on either side that to disagree is unpatriotic. Nonsense- it's our duty as citizens in a democracy to disagree if we see something that we feel is wrong- and not go into the world as sheep.

Other thoughts- the founding fathers were against having a large standing army. Given the way we've chosen to use this army, it seems like they've had a lot more foresight than our current leaders give them credit for.

Also- the FBI is being ridiculous. It's like saying we've built an asteroid defense system, it's secret- but it's saved you from countless asteroids. Who exactly are they trying to keep secrets from? If they've thwarted a terrorist plot- then don't the terrorists know this? Why should the FBI be keeping secrets from the taxpayers who pay their salaries that the terrorists are already well aware of? It's like the English in WWII. They were dropping millions of leaflets over Germany (instead of bombs at the start of the war) but the contents of the leaflets were "classified". Since those leaflets had little effect, my assumption is that the FBI has got the same problem- they're spending a fortune, trampling roughshod over our freedoms, and they're probably being incompetent to boot- and what they're hiding is the degree of their own failure.

Sam

(in reply to SmokingGun82)

Post #: 22

RE: Can you still express feeling patriotic as a U.S. c... - 9/11/2007 10:02:01 AM

UtopianRanger

Posts: 3251
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I'll just quickly say define Patriotic/Patriotism as you see it.

I both support and am very proud of the soul and fine traditions/principles of which our country was founded upon.... But if someone wants to extrapolate patriotism to the citizenries strict adherence to something as arcane /draconian as Romans : 13 , then you'd have to consider me as the most subversive SOB in the neighborhood.

In troubled times with such a woeful leadership at the helm.....my definition of patriotism means to always remain cynical, yet hopeful, and continue to be vocal{in opposition} and fight for change.

- R

< Message edited by UtopianRanger -- 9/11/2007 10:03:14 AM >

_____________________________

"If you are going to win any battle, you have to do one thing. You have to make the mind run the body. Never let the body tell the mind what to do... the body is never tired if the mind is not tired."

-General George S. Patton

(in reply to SusanofO)

Post #: 23

RE: Can you still express feeling patriotic as a U.S. c... - 9/11/2007 10:15:38 AM

SusanofO

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samboct: I hear the gist of your post, but I don't think journalism or braodcasting in the U.S. is reaching anywhere near a "plug-pulling" point. On the contrary - I think there are an abundance of national or international news channels even on regular cable tv -on which I get SCOLA and can watch news in Germany, etc. if I want to do it.

I can watch the BBC, CNN, MSNBC. I have a subscription to the New York Times, plus my local daily paper - and if I want, I can go to my local library and read any of about 50 other newspapers from around the U.S. The fact some might not like the news channels, or papaers isn't really an issue - there's a choice - and that is what I consider to be key. It is something I really appreciate about living here.

I don't think it's a ridiculous claim by the FBI. I don't know if it's true - but I still don't see why they'd feel obligated to splash who they are surveilling all over the newspapers or tv - and the reasons should be obvious, I'd think. It would blow their cover - news "goes global" pretty quickly. The reason people don't like this kind of news from the FBI, IMO, is that there isn't a way to verify it (that is currently in use anyway).

But given the Dems penchant for Oversight committees, in the past year in particular (for which I commend them) I'd say the time may come soon,when they want some kind of accounting for HLS for the dollars spent (and the FBI is a part of HSL).
I am betting any resulting report will wiegh about 10,000 pounds, and be avilable on the Internet sans any "security-sensitive" parts, which might be actually a lot of it) within the next 5 years or so.

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 9/11/2007 11:03:26 AM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to UtopianRanger)

Post #: 24

RE: Can you be Patriotic as a U.S. citizen if you don't... - 9/11/2007 10:16:07 AM

SugarMyChurro

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Joined: 4/26/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

Okay - theroretically, I hear you - But (with all due respect) what about the fact that even though they've always done this shit, you are now able to read about it almost every day in the paper and on tv, and on websites?

We do not have a free media as far as newspapers and TV is concerned - they are all controlled by very few media conglomerates. The worst example is Rupert Murdoch's holdings - which I presume you know about already.

The web is under scrutiny even now. I expect the National Applications Office will have eyeballing the internet as one of its fundamental tasks. And frankly, there are dozens of network related issues involving traffic shaping or bandwidth throttling, filtering and blocking. You're not as free as you think you are, and certainly not for much longer.

To remain free you will doubtless have to ultimately resort to using darknets and encryption schemes.

(in reply to SusanofO)

Post #: 25

RE: Can you still express feeling patriotic as a U.S. c... - 9/11/2007 10:21:39 AM

LadyMorgynn

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From: N. Carolina
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I despise Bush, and his little cronies too. I consider that makes me MORE of a patriot, in fact, as I consider Bush to be a traitor to everything that America stands for, a traitor to every principle this country was founded upon, and thus a traitor to the American people themselves, and he (and others) should be held accountable.

But that's not going to happen until and unless the happy sheeple were to wake up one day and see what is happening and realize that those raised voices they condemned as paranoid because "those things can't happen HERE, this is America!" were right all along. And by then, it will be too late.

_____________________________

---
Lady Morgynn
www.farhorizons.net/LadyMorgynn

(in reply to SusanofO)

Post #: 26

RE: Can you be Patriotic as a U.S. citizen if you don't... - 9/11/2007 10:23:42 AM

Real0ne

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

RealOne: Really? I am sure the others arrested are not people like drug dealers, and are all Day Care nannies, right? Lots of arrests don't necessarily lead to convictions - can you elaborate on the kinds of activities these folks who were arrested were engaging in, (or tell me where it is, so I can read it?)

Like I said, I am nt sure about this not getting a warrant business. But in practice (not theory) if there is a circumstance where someone has to make a decision to avert a terrorist attack without getting one (because getting one somehow blows the operation's cover, although I am not sure why this would be, but if that was the case, for some reason) then I say avert the attack. It appears to not be a clean or easy choice, but IMO it seems like the "lesser of two evils."

But that topic is possibly a whole other thread.

- Susan

I have difficulty with the idea that a government should break all the laws to enforce the law just because "well its for something good".

Granted that sort of thing has been glamorized in the action adventure shows but is no way to run a country.

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to SusanofO)

Post #: 27

RE: Can you be Patriotic as a U.S. citizen if you don't... - 9/11/2007 10:25:16 AM

SusanofO

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Well I love living here anyway, I really do. I'm not moving.

- Susan

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to Real0ne)

Post #: 28

RE: Can you be Patriotic as a U.S. citizen if you don't... - 9/11/2007 10:28:47 AM

Real0ne

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Joined: 10/25/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

Well I love living here anyway, I really do. I'm not moving.

- Susan

Yup i would rather fight than switch myself

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to SusanofO)

Post #: 29

RE: Can you still express feeling patriotic as a U.S. c... - 9/11/2007 10:29:10 AM

ChainsandFreedom

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Joined: 6/20/2007
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owner59 seems to know what he's talking about, but I too would take way the political labels from that.

I express my patriotism every day...It happens when I open my mouth and complain about the government or my fellow citizens. I don't mean in some wishy-washy free speech way...a society where the only ideas most people hear have to be sold for money can never have free speech. A society where I havent seen a penis on film since planet of the apes can not be considered a free speech society. Every nation on earth that ISNT on some UN watchlist has a constitutional garuntee to freedom of speech.

I mean that, when I complain, I care, and I'm expressing my patriotism. Every single day, I think and talk about whats wrong here and what could be done to fix it. the fact of the matter is, it can be fixed. I don't waste time thinking or complaining about lost causes like North Korea or the bussiness model of Verizon-I have no idea how to fix their problems, and I don't love them enough to expend that much brain-power.

I'm patriotic because our gas-addicted violence infested education and policy in the absense of rational thought America deserves my critique and might just benifit from it. My vote doesnt matter-so when I vote, it is purely an act of love and patriotism.

I agree that the problem with patriotism is that it becomes watered down and mis-appropriated. The second someone says 'with us or against us' is the second I question whether we deserve patriotism any more than the next fascist dictatorship. Desperate people defend their right to pollute and use too much oil in their car as patriotism, desperate people defend their religion or their birth language in the name of patriotism-all in the same way a General Forrest disguised his legacy of hate as patriotism.

Patriotism is about the sum total of history we've been a nation and those philosiphies which stay true to the reasons those Colonists and soldiers and wives sacrificed so much for the nation; not some political fad.

So I'm patriotic as hell...Because of this patriotism I have traveled, learned, studied, and experienced my country from different angles, stories, places, and walks of life...I just happen do disagree with most of what I see as national hijacks which are going on right now.

(in reply to SusanofO)

Post #: 30

RE: Can you be Patriotic as a U.S. citizen if you don't... - 9/11/2007 10:35:30 AM

SusanofO

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SMC: And Beatrice Foods controls much of the nations grocery packaged foods sourcing. This doesn't mean it's not a competitive marketplace, as far as buying or selling food is concerned, IMO. Because there is still a lot of choice out there, as far as the end-user outlets go (as well as some producers). There is no price monopolizing happening (if there is, it is periodic and IMO, heavily reported, such as w/coffee, a few years back).

IMO, If it were an objectionable monopoly (at least to me), there would not be any thriving local broadcasters, competing magazines, or even local newspapers that are operating at profit. In any case, *it hasn't impacted my freedom of choice from the standpoint of still offerring (and even expanding upon) niche marketing to a competitive consumer marketplace - as evidenced by the fact that I can still read the National Standard, or the Wall Street Journal, as easily as I can read Rolling Stone or Slate, with more medias outlets (magazines, website blogs related to national magazines, especially) opening every day. And then f course, there is YouTube, which unless I miss my guess nobody is "policing".

I think the face of media is changing, but it isn't necessarily a detriment. I think a lot of it is un-avoidable, and due to the proliferation of the Internet. Google alone (to me) is an absolutely amazing tool.

My guess is that if capitialism runs head-butting with any future (dark or not) government ideals re: Media control, that caplitalism will win out. Take one look at how the Feds approach health insurance industry lobby (as far as its impact on U.S. healthcare), if you want reassurance on that score (although that is kind of an ugly example, competition proliferates in that industry).

Maybe not a perfect comparison, but IMO, one to note as far as which "American ideal" holds more weight. Capitalism is an "American ideal" too - and sometimes, IMO people can forget it has it drawbacks - but also has many, many benefits as well - not always in sync with what everyone wants, all the time. It's definitely not, always. But it is one reason I tend to be more of a Democrat than a Republican (even though I am a registered Independent, actually). I think overall, the Dems mix big business less with politics. But overall, I see capitalism as a good thing.

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 9/11/2007 11:29:31 AM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to SusanofO)

Post #: 31

RE: Can you still express feeling patriotic as a U.S. c... - 9/11/2007 10:56:19 AM

ChainsandFreedom

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quote:

I already posted the link in another thread based on the HLS's own report showing that .0015% of all "arrests" made by HLS are terror related and the rest is all against us citizens.

So we sort of do have an idea frankly.

Oh and i think the numbn is 12, if i remember right and no convictions of course.

you know I agree with lots of your posts, REALONE, but....
HLS is in charge of immigration arrests, too. so the other 99+% CANT all TECHNICLY be US citizens

(in reply to Real0ne)

Post #: 32

RE: Can you be Patriotic as a U.S. citizen if you don't... - 9/11/2007 11:00:01 AM

samboct

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Susan

We can look at the same facts and draw different conclusions. I agree with SMC. A little history- at the turn of the 20th century there were 16 major newspapers in NYC alone (the Times was barely on the radar- they didn't get big till they got the Titanic story right, when everybody else was wrong.) Having lots of different flavors of news packaging doesn't mean that you get more news, just the same stuff recycled. Look at Business Week. Last year they cut 500 staffers, but the magazine didn't get any thinner. So where are they getting their content if not in house? Haven't we seen enough of the perils of outsourcing with Mattel and the electronics industry?

Also- while you used the Beatrice foods- I thought of Procter and Gamble as an example of an 800 pound gorilla in the personal care industry. Having an oligopoly cuts back on product development- P + G used to do research for new products, but that's been cut back. And how they bought Gillette was an example of how toothless anti trust legislation has become. So while there are dozens of different colored boxes on the shelves, the stuff is generally all manufactured by one firm- which really isn't competition to me. Monopoly is a wonderful example of how capitalism works without external forces (regulation) to level the playing field. Bigger is better- except for the consumer or a democracy.

I'm going to agree with the other posters who decry your smug attitude that you've got plenty of choices in terms of what to read. In my field, science, there's more censorship going on now than ever- and that includes the cold war. While the administration categorically denies that there is a classification called "sensitive" talk to authors at a conference and you'll get a different pictures.

And while you discard the lessons of Nazi Germany, (Note that the Weimar republic was actually quite popular in contrast to what a lot of US history tries to point out.)

Pastor Niemoller had a wonderful quote-
When the Nazis came for the Jews, I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew.
When the Nazis came for the Communists, I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Communist.
When the Nazis came for the homosexuals, I didn't speak out because I wasn't a homosexual.
When the Nazis came for the Gypsies, I didn't speak out because I wasn't a gypsy.
When the Nazis came for the Catholics, I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Catholic.
And when the Nazis came for me, there was no one left to speak out.

Sam

(in reply to SusanofO)

Post #: 33

RE: Can you be Patriotic as a U.S. citizen if you don't... - 9/11/2007 11:05:50 AM

ChainsandFreedom

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Joined: 6/20/2007
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quote:

I don't approve of many of the actions of the current administration at all, but at the same time, I take a very different view of things. I feel that I have absolutely no right to complain about the current order if I am not willing to fight and die, as my ancestors were, to change it. And the fact of the matter is, I'm not. Because while I think that Bush has screwed things up royally, that man has flat out the hardest job in the world, and I sure as hell wouldn't want the fate of a great nation like ours riding on MY shoulders. You have to remember, he is the figurehead of the biggest beureaucratic machine on EARTH... If something goes wrong, HE has to carry the bag. That's more responsibility than even I would be comfortable with.

IRON:

Bush ran from his cushy post as a jet pilot....does that mean he has no rightful say about America?
FDR was a cripple and couldn't fight....does that mean he had no right to lead us out of the Depression and WW2?
Susan B Anthony could have pretended to be a man and join the army, but she saw a higher calling...was her protest a waste of time?

What about all the West Point grads who know that, as an officer, they will never be in the line of fire? What about Mcain, who wasn't willing to give up and 'die for his country' but saw the point in living to lead another day?

-You know, they debated making service a requirment to citizenship during the constitutional conventions, and rejected it. Yet they made our country with an open democracy. Maybe the founders realized that if everyone who cared about the US ran off to shoot everytime there was a war, we'd have no great minds left worth defending. A soldiers job is to shoot, and a soldier's officer limits the information he has so that he doesnt have to make tough decsions. Submissives on this site aside, we can't all surrendure our decsion making ability and still make decsions, just as not everyone could serve even if they wanted to.

(in reply to SoulOfIron2007)

Post #: 34

RE: Can you be Patriotic as a U.S. citizen if you don't... - 9/11/2007 11:08:33 AM

SusanofO

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samboct: P& G is owned by Beatrice Foods. My problem with these kinds of arguments is that people can rarely seem to face the fact they can't have it both ways. They sometimes seem (to me) want Capitalism and Socialism at once. No can do.

Tell me how this has conglomeration has impacted 1) Your freedom as far as proliferation of product choices and 2) Your economics, as far as pricing (if anything, it has mostly lowered prices, not raised them, and I can prove it, too) - and I'll be more inclined to listen. I simply see much conglemeration as a result of a successful capitalistic marketplace at its end point. I haven't seen much in the way of consumer detriment, as a result of it.

The fact your Internet as yet remains unfettered should be even more proof of that to you. If you truly believe we are on the verge of some communist state here, take a closer look around at how highly capitalism is valued in this country, overall, IMO.

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 9/11/2007 11:37:55 AM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to ChainsandFreedom)

Post #: 35

RE: Can you be Patriotic as a U.S. citizen if you don't... - 9/11/2007 11:13:22 AM

Cuckme4Life

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From: MentallyDeranged,Tn.
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Not a Bush fan, Not a Clinton fan either. But I love this country. Just not fond of our pitiful pool of leaders to choose from. I do consider myself a patriot completely however. I believe in the citizens first and foremost.

_____________________________

"Face Your Fears, Live Your Dreams!"-- Nike Corporation

"I will banish them from my kingdom"--- King Willie Herenton, Memphis Tn. Mayor (choke)

(in reply to SusanofO)

Post #: 36

RE: Can you be Patriotic as a U.S. citizen if you don't... - 9/11/2007 11:13:36 AM

ChainsandFreedom

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quote:

while I think that Bush has screwed things up royally, that man has flat out the hardest job in the world, and I sure as hell wouldn't want the fate of a great nation like ours riding on MY shoulders. You have to remember, he is the figurehead of the biggest beureaucratic machine on EARTH... If something goes wrong, HE has to carry the bag.

- you mean like he 'carried the bag' after declairing 'mission accomplished' or carried the bag after lying to the people and saying 'nobody could have forsaw the levee's breaking'?

Do you really think his job is all that much harder than a 11 year old making 12 cents a day sewing together Nikes after china got 'most favored trading partner' status?

Do you really think his job is harder than a Nurses aid working twelve hour shifts to feed her healthcare/welfare/school lunch-lacking children on top of going in debt for her RN degree after student aid has been cut and her taxes have been raised?

(in reply to SoulOfIron2007)

Post #: 37

RE: Can you be Patriotic as a U.S. citizen if you don't... - 9/11/2007 11:14:37 AM

SusanofO

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Cuckme4Life: Me, too.

- Susan

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to ChainsandFreedom)

Post #: 38

RE: Can you be Patriotic as a U.S. citizen if you don't... - 9/11/2007 11:21:47 AM

samboct

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"Bush ran from his cushy post as a jet pilot....does that mean he has no rightful say about America?"

Umm, the training that Bush got to fly the F-106 was rather expensive ($1M or so?) After he got trained to fly the airplane- he decided he wanted a career in politics. He also found out that the airplane was challenging to fly, and that a number were being lost in service. I don't think I'd describe that as a "cushy job". However, without his political connections, he would have been forced to serve his time in the National Guard like most people who had signed up.

I'd describe his work on a political campaign instead of flying the airplane as a cushy job though...it kept him out of Viet Nam.

Susan- you're throwing out labels that have no meaning to me, however, I surmise that your description of my views as "socialist" is ad hominem and thus degenerates any discussion to bathos. In short, you're guilty of using the same tactics that you deplored in your original post.

Sam

(in reply to SusanofO)

Post #: 39

RE: Can you be Patriotic as a U.S. citizen if you don't... - 9/11/2007 11:26:45 AM

SusanofO

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samboct: I'm not "using tactics" - or trying to insult anyone. I am simply pointing out the illogical reasoning that I see accompany these kinds of discussions sometimes, judging from statements some people make. Some people seem to want Socialism and capitalism at the same time in the U.S. It's not, IMO, a realistic expectation. Capitalism and market competition are far from dead in this country, IMO.

There are smaller firms that are born and developed with the dream of being bought out by some major conglomerate for X millions of dollars, every single day. It's exactly how many larger firms expand their product lines. Which equals more choices for the consumer, not less.

Marketplace competition is alive and well (trust me). In some industries more than others, granted (for instance, electrical energy isn't particularly a competitive market, and never has been). You simply can't generalize about things like this. The marketplace is much too vast for that, IMO.

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 9/11/2007 12:13:01 PM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to samboct)

Post #: 40

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