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RE: Can you be Patriotic as a U.S. citizen if you don't... - 9/11/2007 11:30:31 AM   
curiouspet55


Posts: 133
Joined: 10/13/2006
From: Indiana
Status: offline 		Its possible...I love America, and I am proud to be an American. I may not agree with the political atmosphere during a current period of time, but that in no means discounts the strength of our overall government, and I have faith in the government our founders created for us.

cp55

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Question everything, try anything, do something.

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Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Can you be Patriotic as a U.S. citizen if you don't... - 9/11/2007 11:32:41 AM   
samboct


Posts: 1817
Joined: 1/17/2007
Status: offline 		Susan

You want the personal impact of  P + G?  OK, I'm trained as a scientist- 10 years doing a Ph.D. and a postdoc.  Graduated only to find out there are no jobs, or you have to be awfully lucky to get one.  I'd have been delighted to work on characterizing toxicology mechanisms (what I trained on)- an important part of new product development since you need to make sure that the new compounds you're developing for your products really are non-toxic.  Instead, P + G has decided that rather than develop new compounds, it can merely repackage existing compounds from the formulary (with known toxicity mechanisms) to make "new" products and spends far more on marketing than R + D.  Given the impact that detergents have on the environment, there should be plenty of incentive to develop these new products, but as noted above, P + G has no real competition- hence no real R + D.  Coupled with inadequate government regulation, our marketplace is becoming more hazardous, rather than less (the trend through most of the 20th century.) due to the influx of products with inadequate quality control from China.  So no lab job for me, and I'm struggling to make ends meet as a consultant.  There- that personal enough for you?

Sam

(in reply to samboct)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Can you be Patriotic as a U.S. citizen if you don't... - 9/11/2007 11:37:27 AM   
philosophy


Posts: 5284
Joined: 2/15/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

They sometimes seem (to me) want Capitalism and Socialism at once. No can do.



....small point of information.......actually you can, it's called a mixed economy and it's the social model i tend to favour.

(in reply to SusanofO)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Can you be Patriotic as a U.S. citizen if you don't... - 9/11/2007 11:58:08 AM   
SusanofO


Posts: 5672
Joined: 12/19/2005
Status: offline 		samboct: I feel for you. But actually, I think that is a sound business decision on their part, if they have a profit motive, and it costs less to reformulate, and they can still expand. I know it sucks, though, from where you sit. When they have a bigger incentive to do research, they will. Maybe the are slowing down development of some consumer goods, but dont give up -because there are some small hot-shot firms out there that they might want to buy tommorrow, simply because they are developing what P & G is not (another way for them to avoid research is to just buy another firm that circumvents the need, instead, and larger firms do this all the time). I'd consider working for a smaller firm, and reseach who specifically has a need for your emphasis, if its not P & G. 

Good luck in your job search. I was a Marketing management  major, with an emphasis on research, (and have a few hours left on an MBA, which I doubt I will finish) -anyway - because my work experience is Industrial rather than consumer-oriented, I am finding it difficult to get interviews for the major consumer research firm in my town (an international firm) for anything other than a little higher step than an entry-level job. However, I have been out of the job market for several years.

But - I  have very good work experience at a major (gigantic, in fact) firm of several years in an Industrial setting. Not being able to work where I'd like in this town, at the level I'd prefer, is discouraging. I realize it is also a competitive job marketplace. If I wanted, I could move to Kansas City and get a job tommorrow, in my field, at a pay scale that I'd love. Fact is, I don't want to move. I also don't particularly want to work for that facet of the industry I do have experience in. There is no"ideal" job for me out there, really. There are simply better or not as good ones (for me). If I stay here, my options are definitely fewer.

philosophy: I know you can - I was pointing out the extremes I see some seem to only want, or think exist. I happen to think that is what we might be headed toward (what you mentioned), and I think it's inevitable if we want to "solve" the health insurance crisis in the U.S. But -for anything other than a truly crisis-proportioned social problem (as in people dying) I tend to be waaay more capitalisitc than not.

Part of my cynical reason for this, is that I don't see many who decry places like Wal-Mart proliferating, at the expense of "mom and pop" stores, ever cite the advantages of Wal-Mart's existence to the vast majority of consumers in the U.S. - and I see many who de-cry it existence continue to shop there. I think Wal-Mart is here to stay (and I think they earned it, strictly speaking, from a business developmental success standpoint).

I also don't think some people realize that this kind of growth phenomenon is natural in a capitalistic society, and also very often industry specific: There is a busness cycle of start-ups, growth, pinnacles of success, and even industry-wide death (depending on the industry in question attached). It's what stock market analysts tend to follow. It's normal (at least to me).

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 9/11/2007 12:34:19 PM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to philosophy)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Can you still express feeling patriotic as a U.S. c... - 9/11/2007 12:01:41 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		Susan, sure you can be patriotic towards your country but I think some people confuse being patriotic with politics.
And obviously the U.S. is superior to most other countries.
One only has to look at the things this country has accomplished.
I don't think big corporations who got their start in this country and now "outsource" are patriotic at all.
We hear the old excuse, "companies are only accountable to the bottom line and stockholders."
Fine, then we don't need to be "patriotic" to those companies or grant them access to our markets.
*Trade deals are between countries, not companies*, so we can exclude them from doing business in our country.
The next President needs to come up with a long list of companies that can no longer do business in this country.

I have'nt been in a walmart in almost 6 years now.

< Message edited by popeye1250 -- 9/11/2007 12:25:38 PM >

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RE: Can you be Patriotic as a U.S. citizen if you don't... - 9/11/2007 12:09:04 PM   
samboct


Posts: 1817
Joined: 1/17/2007
Status: offline 		Susan

Then perhaps I'm confused by what you're advocating? A return to laissez faire capitalism that was tried during the Victorian age and had it's death knell with the Titanic?  I find nothing inconsistent with both a strong regulatory environment (which you seem to confuse with socialism) and capitalism- the strong regulatory environment merely ensures that everyone is playing by the same rules.  If you think that laissez faire capitalism is wonderful, then I suggest you do some reading about it.  There is a world of difference between a free market economy and laissez faire capitalism.  Your comment that P + G does nothing wrong smacks of laissez faire capitalism by the way- but perhaps I'm in error as to my interpretation of what you find desirous?

In terms of your comments that the marketplace is vast and that there are lots of new products being developed- well, I work in the area of advanced materials, and I can tell you that you're sadly mistaken if you think that our economy is doing well. Bear in mind that it often takes decades for new materials to reach the market, but it's an intrinsic part of a growing economy.  If you don't mind an agricultural analogy- it's seed corn.  Without it, sooner or later, the whole farm collapses.  Like the pharmaceutical firms found out from their slashed R + D budgets in the 80s, there will be a downstream price to pay.  Looking at that industry- (which is a pretty healthy size) pharmaceutical companies are now spending ever increasing sums to try and bring new products to market, and not doing very well at it.  Advanced materials commerxialization is not doing well now either- and this is in the face of what should be mounting demand.  You can't just turn a tap and produce results from the lab- it takes years of steady work- the lesson that the pharma companies are learning now.

From my perspective- the large defense firms are doing an excellent job of squelching innovation.  Look at R + D spending at defense firms- and then ask why our troops in Iraq after 4 years of war still have inadequately armored humvees and little to no detection technology for roadside IEDs- both of which are advanced materials problems.  The answer is simple- the defense contractors are going to make money even if they don't solve the problem- so where are the benefits of capitalism now?

Sam

< Message edited by samboct -- 9/11/2007 12:11:44 PM >

(in reply to SusanofO)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Can you still express feeling patriotic as a U.S. c... - 9/11/2007 12:09:47 PM   
SusanofO


Posts: 5672
Joined: 12/19/2005
Status: offline 		Well I wasn't trying to argue with anyone in any nasty sense(I wasn't). Just comment on why I like it here (capitalism is one of the many reasons, even if  am not a mega-millionaire due to it). I appreciate all of the replies, and I hope more people continue to write in.

samboct: I know regulations exist. So does a justice system. Who said anything about Lassiez-faire capitalism?

If you think P & G is violating any regulatory standards, because they are simply choosing to not expand in a particular area of your preference, and-or because you think they are operating in a monopolisitc manner- and you think you can prove this is truly detrimettnal in terms of overall impact, to many U.S. consumers, than get some other consumers together and have a class-action law-suit filed against them.

It's the American way. Ditto for defense equipment safety comments. Maybe someone will do this soon (or maybe they are now), I dunno.

As far as your comment on industry-specific product proliferation, I suspect the phenomenon of supply and demand is associated with filling a market need, and finding a way to market that need so people realize (for better or worse) the (perceived) need exists. If this hasn't happened as far as products in your area of expertise, then it is the industry's fault, not the consumers, and not (particularly, IMO) the government's.

If the problem reaches crisis proportions, accompanied by a huge consumer (and-or voter) out-cry, maybe the goverment will step in and regulate (or de-regulate) the way to industry-specific "success". Until then, I wouldn't hold my breath.

-Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 9/11/2007 12:41:48 PM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Can you be Patriotic as a U.S. citizen if you don't... - 9/11/2007 12:16:29 PM   
slaveboyforyou


Posts: 3607
Joined: 1/6/2005
From: Arkansas, U.S.A.
Status: offline 		I think it's perfectly okay to feel patriotic.  There is a huge difference between patriotism and nationalism.  I never really get any criticism for saying that I am proud to be an American.  I do get that from people when I say I am proud of being a Southernor.  I am proud of the distinctive culture we have, but that doesn't mean I condone the Klan, segregation, slavery, etc.  Unfortunately, there are some people that are so bigoted in their dislike of something, that you will never convince them otherwise. 

(in reply to SusanofO)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Can you still express feeling patriotic as a U.S. c... - 9/11/2007 12:39:14 PM   
ChainsandFreedom


Posts: 222
Joined: 6/20/2007
Status: offline
quote:

Well I wasn't trying to argue with anyone (I wasn't). Just comment on why I like it here (capitalism is one of the many reasons, even if  am not a mega-millionaire due to it). I appreciate all of the rpelies, and I hope more people continue to write in.


-You know, if you're not a multi-millonare and you like it here, a little bit more socialism would mean more money in your pocket...we already are socalist. Social Security, income tax, and public highways are all social property and investment. More socalism would simply mean that much of what you pay for would be covered by government-healthcare and college tution and retirement pensions wouldn't be coming from your pocket.

Since the vast majority of wealth in this country is owned by multi-millonares and is taxed less, the middle class and lower-upper-class would save money in a more socalized economy (40% of  million minus assests such as stock that doesnt circulate is still less than taxing 30% of 50 thousand dollar holdings taxed twenty ways and being taxed as a greater proportion of this is victim to things like sales tax as it is being circulated more).

I don't know about P&G, but I do know about Johnson and Johnson. Similar situation. But when they bought pfizer, they laid off ten thousand people. J&J employees didn't make more than pfizer people. ten thousand people lost taxable income while the value of untaxed shares went up-how does that help the economy? Meanwhile Rembrandt has a new formula and razors are so expensive you have to buy them from behind the counter in supermarkets to protect against theft.

and old and tired example would be auto's. If the Big Three hadn't been so busy buing out other companies, and offering a Mercury that was exactly the same as a Ford, Honda and Toyota never would have had to come fill in the vacum.

Don't get me wrong, I did a school thesis on why more capitalist Kenya did better than more socalist Tanzania, I support capitalism too. But once we all have a certain level of wealth, another walmart isnt going to lower your taxes or improve your buying power in the long run-instead of going to four places, all the same old sales are just under one new roof. And companies selling completely differnt, non-competing products raise their prices because suddenly their transportation departments are playing second fiddle to wal-mart in the back of the delevery truck. Products get cut as companies have redundant lines so you loose consumer choice. Nothing new comes out, you just get investment in advertisement and cheaper production methods instead of R&D. 

Your right, some small companies get started dreaming of the days they will be bought out. This leads to the internet/realastate bubble and corresponding busts. This leads to half the software developers loosing their jobs and the ones that are left getting paid half as much. The price is pretty high on the American consumer so that some ivy leauge frat boy can start a puppet company based on his father's friend's investments which produces little except tax-sheltered stock values for a few already rich elites.

(in reply to SusanofO)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Can you still express feeling patriotic as a U.S. c... - 9/11/2007 12:50:52 PM   
SusanofO


Posts: 5672
Joined: 12/19/2005
Status: offline 		Capitalism isn't perfect - and re: What you said completey depends on the industry, the economy, and the time-line to which you refer, IMO. In the 60's we in the U.S. had "Shake N Bake", TAB, and lots of products that simply no longer exist, for various reasons. Today, perhaps we have too many kinds of razors, and 10 years from now, maybe nobody will be using them because someone has invented a way to market a deplilatory that is so attractive and affordable, nobody wants to use them anymore, or because more people can afford lasering for hair removal. 

Bubbles are created as much out of consumer and-or corporate greed as much as anything. The Mortgage loan real-estate example currently is a good example. Some people want their bigger than necessary houses at any price it seems, and there are firms are willing to cater to their greed, because they are as greedy, except on the opposite side of the fence. And I am against any government entity "saving" either these consumers, or the companies in question.

If a proliferation of razor choices is the biggest problem, it is small potatoes IMO compared to getting the Feds involved in regulating how many manufacturers (or cnsumer choices) should be on the market, or stepping in to insist X number of employees per down-sizing firm be re-hired elsewhere at X dollars salary level.

I worked for General Motors for several years - and one way that catering to employees to a large degree re: Benefits hurt them when they got to their elephantine size, was related to employees ever increasing demands - so that it eventually made them less competitive in the overall market place (I didn't work for the auto division, rather the divison that made Deisel engine locomotives and marine engines). Their cost of empolyee benefits drove them out of the marketplace in some instances entirely, and some divisions closed down entirely.

Re: The rest of what you said, IMO -No, they'd be coming in the form of more taxation, and also a much higher level, of bureucratic entanglement for governement doled benefits. Anyone who really believes that a government that cannot seem to balance a checkbook is going to be proficient at offerring these services to its voters and consumers, is IMO in for a sad wake-up call.

I realize the Bush administration has catered to the wealthy end of the social strata in many instances (and it hasn't been attractive to me at all), but overall, I have this to say about federal government involvement in social beneifciary areas -

Take a look at how the wonderfully touted senior prescription-drug coverage was offerred to senior citizens (many of whom didn't have Internet access at the time, and many of whom still don't). On websites. Why? Because it was easier for the government. They had not nearly enough folks to explain the process to seniors, and the confusion re: Choices, and the limits in sign-up dates were atrociously implemented. Hurricane Katrina is another sad (if idiosyncratic) example of this.

There simply won't be much consumer-orientation, IMO. I am not saying some of these things aren't a good idea for the government to want to offer citizens, or that they won't do it anyway - college sans tuition is already run-of-the-mill in California. I don't live there, but if it's working well, I suspect this might be due to lack of Federal government involvement, maybe not because of it.

One of the reasons Social Security works as well as it does, is that its had over 60 years to grow into an agency that has had time to work out some "processing wrinkles", IMO. But the biggest reason is he growth of the AARP as a lobbying insititution, IMO, and also as a voter demographic. 

There was also a huge capaitalistic interest in building the Interstate highway system, no matter what societally beneficial flowery message was attached by the Eisenhower administration when it was built. Trucking is the biggest form of product transport in this country, and guess who uses the Interstate as an efficiency tool in it everyday operations?

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 9/11/2007 1:34:35 PM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to ChainsandFreedom)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Can you still express feeling patriotic as a U.S. c... - 9/11/2007 12:51:53 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

Well I wasn't trying to argue with anyone in any nasty sense(I wasn't). Just comment on why I like it here (capitalism is one of the many reasons, even if  am not a mega-millionaire due to it). I appreciate all of the replies, and I hope more people continue to write in.

samboct: I know regulations exist. So does a justice system. Who said anything abouir Lassiez-faire capitalism?

If you think P & G is violating any regulatory standards, because they are simply choosing to not expand in a particular area of your preference, and-or because you think they are opertaing in a monopolisitc manner- and you think you can prove this is truly detrimetnal in terms of overall impact to many U.S. consumers, than get some other consumers together and have a class-action law-suit filed against them.

It's the American way. 

As far as your comment on industry-specific product proliferation, I suspect the phenomenon of supply and demand is associated with filling  amarket need and finding a way to market that need so people realize (for better or worse) the need exists. if this hasn't happened in your area of expertise, then it is the industry's fault, not the consumers.

-Susan


Susan, I believe in capitalism too.
But, what we have *now* in this country is not capitalism.
In capitalism if you can't find help at a certain wage you raise wages and benefits until you can find help.
Or, you go out of business.
There are no "garauntees" that any business has to suceed in capitalism.
What big companies have done is to change the rules through Washington.
Also, they're breaking federal law by hiring illegal aliens at slave wages.
It makes one wonder where the boundries of greed lie.
To listen to big companies you and I "have" to be patriotic but they don't.
At some point we're going to have to start breaking up monopolies again like they did back in the 1980's with the phone company.
I don't think "patriotism" means, "my country right or wrong."
I think it's more of a collective happiness that we live in and contribute to such a good place to live.

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to SusanofO)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Can you still express feeling patriotic as a U.S. c... - 9/11/2007 12:54:57 PM   
SeeksOnlyOne


Posts: 2012
Joined: 5/14/2007
Status: offline 		i love this country....warts and all......

i havent heard of one that sounds better, or id go there.....it aint much, but its home(with apologies to ars......

_____________________________

it aint no good til it hurts just a little bit....jimmy somerville

in those moments of solitude, does everyone sometimes think they are insane? or is it just me?

(in reply to SusanofO)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Can you still express feeling patriotic as a U.S. c... - 9/11/2007 1:14:09 PM   
SusanofO


Posts: 5672
Joined: 12/19/2005
Status: offline 		popeye1250: Okay. I am not disagreeing with you, necessarily. Examples? What's your specific solution?

- Susan

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to SeeksOnlyOne)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Can you still express feeling patriotic as a U.S. c... - 9/11/2007 1:40:48 PM   
MrRodgers


Posts: 10542
Joined: 7/30/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

Well I wasn't trying to argue with anyone in any nasty sense(I wasn't). Just comment on why I like it here (capitalism is one of the many reasons, even if  am not a mega-millionaire due to it). I appreciate all of the replies, and I hope more people continue to write in.

samboct: I know regulations exist. So does a justice system. Who said anything about Lassiez-faire capitalism?

If you think P & G is violating any regulatory standards, because they are simply choosing to not expand in a particular area of your preference, and-or because you think they are operating in a monopolisitc manner- and you think you can prove this is truly detrimettnal in terms of overall impact, to many U.S. consumers, than get some other consumers together and have a class-action law-suit filed against them.
It's the American way. Ditto for defense equipment safety comments. Maybe someone will do this soon (or maybe they are now), I dunno.

As far as your comment on industry-specific product proliferation, I suspect the phenomenon of supply and demand is associated with filling a market need, and finding a way to market that need so people realize (for better or worse) the (perceived) need exists. If this hasn't happened as far as products in your area of expertise, then it is the industry's fault, not the consumers, and not (particularly, IMO) the government's.

If the problem reaches crisis proportions, accompanied by a huge consumer (and-or voter) out-cry, maybe the goverment will step in and regulate (or de-regulate) the way to industry-specific "success". Until then, I wouldn't hold my breath.

-Susan


Susan, we first must know our words. Today's word is patrioitism. Just what is patriotism ? Could it be that we think ourselves superior and we think our country superior...simply because WE were born in it ? Can I be a patriot of a country where you were not born ? Those are called expatriots. The only difference is...will you sacrifice for your country when called upon. I have and would again serve in the military for my country and call her the worlds still great, young idea...the grand experiment in freedom and government at the consent of the governed. That is the signature evidence of patriotism.

Capitalism is NOT the attraction here...it is the other shrinking part of our economy...the free market. They are two different things. Capitalism is a never ending search for profits...without too much regard about how they are obtained. Often this is achieved though the simple transfer of paper. We have capitalism for the poor and socialism for the rich. We can't have a single-payer health insurance program for us and our children but we can for banks (FDIC). Since 1933 (Glass- Steagall act) banking has not been in a free market. Since 1945 and the McFadden-Ferguson act essentailly allowed insurance companies to legally fix prices within a state...insurance has not been in a free market. We have 'free' trade agreements that are anything but free-trade agreements that provide numerous protections for capital almost none for labor and even if so...unenforced.

We have massive subsidies for agriculture and tariffs for the politcally connected (bought) (lumber & steel most recently) to protect profits in those industries. One could go on and on about how capitalism is moral hazard, capitalism is rent-seeking.  Capitalism concentrates wealth and the 'growth' in our economy is being fueled by borrowing collectively $6 BILLION/Day. We are a consuming, debtor nation now... not a productive surplus nation, as in the past.

As far as day to day life ? How bout those laws we all demanded like taking away some overtime...and adding more legal hurdles to declare banckruptcy ? That's capitalism at work. I can buy and sell property or paper and have 'capital gains' or 'carried interest' and pay 15% federal tax rate. You, on my staff with your paycheck and as well as you are being paid...suffer a 35% federal tax rate. You see..I am a capitalist...you are labor. The press goes right along with all of this as they too are capitalists. The courts are following suit...don't get me started.

< Message edited by MrRodgers -- 9/11/2007 1:54:15 PM >

(in reply to SusanofO)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Can you still express feeling patriotic as a U.S. c... - 9/11/2007 1:47:33 PM   
SusanofO


Posts: 5672
Joined: 12/19/2005
Status: offline 		MrRodgers: You make some good points. I do believe one needs to be a citizen of the country they wish to proclaim themsleves a patriot of, yes. Life in't always fair, though. If you want perfect equality, you are never going to find it on planet Earth, IMO. And as far as I can tell, people still have the right to vote - and freedom of assembly - and to bring class action lawsuits - and to form political action committees, blogs and websites that can propel people into taking action.

I can see your rallying cry - but IMO, this can be similar to the kind of "we are powerless" talk that  can (can, not always does, but sometimes IMO definitely does) feed into a  "the government owes me" mind-set, of people who want benefits akin to welfare, simply because they were born here.

If people truly want change, then they'll have to really try hard to create some. To me, U.S. patriots might complain about their government, but they won't whine endlessly without attempting pretty persistently to implement some logical solution. Otherwise, they risk becoming the enemy they fear themselves, IMO.

In many cases, these are some of the same people who complain out of the other side of ther mouth about the "illegal immigration" problem - the just don't see the irony. But I do see your points (I do). I think NAFTA was (mostly) a mistake.

And to answer your question - I haven't been in the military, but if drafted, I would serve.  I don't think the Bush administration has  been particulalry kind to the average U.S. ciitzen, if we are comparing the size of tax breaks w/corporate America (and it's not the first Presidential administration to do that, either. I am old enough to remember Ronald Reagan, as President).

After this particular Bush administration, I will be absolutely blown away of a Republican is elected as the next President (and not in a good way). 

- Susan  

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 9/11/2007 2:28:59 PM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to MrRodgers)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Can you still express feeling patriotic as a U.S. c... - 9/11/2007 1:48:29 PM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

With all of this 9-11 remembrance, I am remembering that I do love my country. If someone wants to think that means I feel I am a superior American, then they are wrong. It does mean I am patriotic, and I do love the U.S.

I am really not sure why this has to be necessarily tied to the ideas that I -

1) Love what President Bush does, Or,

2) This means I believe America  is "superior" to another country.

Is it still possible to feel patriotic as a U.S. citizen, and not be condemned for it? Why should that be considered "wrong" by anyone? Don't other people feel this way, ever? Guess it's sort of a rhetorical question. 

I am not trying to start an argument, or seek explanations as to why people jump to conclusions if one mentions they feel patriotic about living in the U.S. - I guess I am just saying I do feel patriotic, and am not ashamed of it, and see no reason why I should be ashamed to feel some loyalty to the U.S.

I live here. My family lives here. There are many things to love about it, and I am not ashamed to be an American. I know there are things our government has done that many (including me, at times) may not be happy about - but overall, I think I live in a wonderful nation, and consider myself  extremely lucky to be here.

I am pretty sure other people from other countries sometimes feel the same way about where they are from, and even people who live in particular U.S. states sometimes feel loyalty to their own state. I don't think it's that weird an emotion to have.

- Susan


It depends on why someone would consider patriotic feelings 'wrong'.
None of us had anything to do with where we were born, so a sense of pride in that non-accomplishment seems illogical at best... and therefor 'wrong' from a rational point of view.

OTOH, attacking someone else's patriotism as a jingoistic expression of one's own nationalistic fervor, has never made sense to me... too much like 'War Prayer' I guess.

< Message edited by Alumbrado -- 9/11/2007 1:49:48 PM >

(in reply to SusanofO)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Can you still express feeling patriotic as a U.S. c... - 9/11/2007 2:00:41 PM   
SusanofO


Posts: 5672
Joined: 12/19/2005
Status: offline 		Alumabrado: Thanks for answering the question. 

- Susan

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to Alumbrado)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Can you still express feeling patriotic as a U.S. c... - 9/11/2007 2:31:59 PM   
ChainsandFreedom


Posts: 222
Joined: 6/20/2007
Status: offline 		Susan:
you go, you, for putting up with all of us who are writing such volumous posts trying to counter what you're saying.

quote:

Capitalism isn't perfect - and re: What you said completey depends on the industry, the economy, and the time-line to which you refer, IMO. In the 60's we in the U.S. had "Shake N Bake", TAB, and lots of products that simply no longer exist, for various reasons. Today, perhaps we have too many kinds of razors, and 10 years from now, maybe nobody will be using them because someone has invented a way to market a deplilatory that is so attractive and affordable, nobody wants to use them anymore, or because more people can afford lasering for hair removal.  


I guess my point here was simply that demand for razors hasn't gone down, the supply hasn't gone down, yet the price has risen. Companies buying out companies to arrive at profit rather than competing for markets has altered capitalism at a fundimental level.

quote:

Bubbles are created as much out of consumer abd-or corporate greed as much as anyhting. The Mortgage loan real-estate example currently is a good example. Some people want their bigger than necessary houses at any price it seems, and there are frims willing to cater to their greed, because they are as greedy, except on the opposite side of the fence.  


Consumers also want cheap cocaine, that doesn't mean deregulation is good for anyone save a few cartel kingpins. Regulations are there to protect both consumers and bussiness from greed-driven bad decsions. Unfortunatly, humanity is so filled with greed that the entire economy would collapse if at least some measure of greed-protection wasn't in place.

quote:

 If a proliferation of razor choices is the biggest problem, it is small potatoes IMO compared to getting the Feds involved in regulating how many manufacturers (or cnsumer choices) should be on the market, or stepping in to insist X number of employees per down-sizing firm be re-hired elsewhere at X dollars salary level.  


regulating the amount of bussiness's and forcing bussiness to hire the downsized seems pretty complicated. My solution would simply be to make it tougher to sell your case when you want to buy out another bussiness, and to fine major shareholders/executives an amount equal to any personal profits they make during the years downsizing took place so theres no short-term motivation to downsize beyond long-term company health.

quote:

I worked for General Motors for several years - and one way that catering to employees to a large degree re: Benefits hurt them when they got to their elephantine size, was related to employees ever increasing demands - so that it eventually made them less competitive in the overall market place (I didn't work for the auto division, rather the divison that made Deisel engine locomotives and marine engines). Their cost of empolyee benefits drove them out of the marketplace in some instances entirely, and some divisions closed down entirely.  


a major quote I remember from Bill Ford when he took over and the big three laid off tens of thousands a few years back: Ford had to lay people off to compete with Japan and Europe, because 51 cents to the dollar went to finacing retirement/healthcare and such, while in asia/europe, this was absorbed by the government, labor costs were much lower, and taxes still left the forigen auto's with a large net advantage over america.

Also, When reasearching music a couple of years ago, I came across the Hedonic Pricing Model. Created by ford/GM to sell car stero's in the 50's. The idea was that people would pay 200 bucks for a 25 dollar car radio simply because they wanted one, and it was up to the manufacturer to set a price.
This has been a major factor in the auto industries product development and R&D ever since. More so than Europe/Japan. Fast forward to the ninties. You read about how the push to get everyone into an SUV was because they only costed a fraction more to build but sold for 50% more. So they pushed SUV's, the market evloved, and they were left with no choice but to lay off and to buy out and neutur perfectly good cars like Saabs and Volvo's. Same idea in the seventies when people decided they didn't need a 6 ft long trunk.

quote:

Re: The rest of what you said, IMO -No, they'd be coming in the form of more taxation, and also a much higher level, of bureucratic entanglement for governement doled benefits. Anyone who really believes that a government that cannot seem to balance a checkbook is going to be proficient at offerring these services to its voters and consumers, is IMO in for a sad wake-up call.


Just because Government is inefficent doesnt mean it has to be. It's the bankers-hours theory of bussiness: don't offer the consumer good service if you can get away with offering them bad service and minimize how much they use services. That way both parties can go on saying the system is broken and win votes by promising to fix something they never get around to.

Tell me why Manhattan, with such high property values and wealth, has four hour lines at the DMV and less than 20 tellers? because they can get away with it.
Why do Immigration cases take so long to resolve? Because nobody really wants to fix the system, not because it cant be done.
Why do non-jury leagle cases take so long? because every motion and application includes a 200 hundred or so dollar filing fee paid to uncle sam.
Like you said, with the transportation system, if the money / political pressure is there, things tend to move much more quickly smothly and more efficently.

socialism doesnt have to equal red tape and the american economy is in no way the most efficant mode of capitalism.

quote:

Re: The rest of what you said, IMO -No, they'd be coming in the form of more taxation, and also a much higher level, of bureucratic entanglement for governement doled benefits.  


The form of more taxation would be up to voters/politicians: if voter numbers outweighed lobbying interests for once, the taxes could come fromt the majority of income, which is at the very top, and leave the 10% of money the other 90% of us have alone.

and like I said, there doesnt have to be so much bearacratic entaglemtent: its a question of methods, not a question of feasablility. Personally, I'd outsource all of the govt's HR problems to the many private HR/logistics/filing firms that already exist (in america) to serve other big bussinesses.
Companies could compete over doing things quickly and more effeciantly than the Fed and each other to get awarded annual contracts.

(in reply to SusanofO)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Can you still express feeling patriotic as a U.S. c... - 9/11/2007 2:37:29 PM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline 		When this topic comes up I am always reminded of a bumper sticker I occasionally see around town and love.

"I love my country, it's the idiots running it that scare me......."

The really scary part is that the idiots running it are changing too much of what I love. If the people I love so much did not all live here, I probably wouldn't anymore either.




_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to SusanofO)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Can you still express feeling patriotic as a U.S. c... - 9/11/2007 2:42:36 PM   
samboct


Posts: 1817
Joined: 1/17/2007
Status: offline 		Susan

"If you think P & G is violating any regulatory standards, because they are simply choosing to not expand in a particular area of your preference, and-or because you think they are operating in a monopolisitc manner- and you think you can prove this is truly detrimettnal in terms of overall impact, to many U.S. consumers, than get some other consumers together and have a class-action law-suit filed against them.

It's the American way. Ditto for defense equipment safety comments. Maybe someone will do this soon (or maybe they are now), I dunno."

Why should I have to play vigilante to enforce laws that are already there?  Or is this blame the victim time?  Class action suits are a very poor substitute for regulation- lawyers are only interested in money.  The government should be interested in the well being of its voters- this is the strength of a democracy.  When governments are only interested in the wealthy- you have the laissez faire capitalism of the 1890s or a South American democracy.  Since you seem to be making the assumption that P + G hasn't broken any laws although they are either an oligopoly (similar to the oil companies of the 1920s) or a de facto monopoly- that type of thinking was exemplified in laissez faire capitalism- leave corporations alone to make money and the country will become wealthy.  It didn't work then and it's not working now- the strength of the US has been in a thriving middle class- it's the real wealth  of the country (which so far hasn't been measured in dollars)- a well educated and well paid work force.  Rich folks are disposable- they do very little in terms of real wealth (again, not measured in dollars).  Best example- Czar Nicholas of Russia prior to 1917 was the richest man in the world, but Russia was a backward country that couldn't defend itself against the Central Powers in WWI.

Also the defense equipment is paid for with my tax dollars as well.  Should I in effect be suing myself?  How do I bring a lawsuit if I haven't lost a relative in Iraq?  Your idea makes no sense- it's dysfunctional.

Furthermore class action lawsuits have a way of destroying industries, rather than allowing them to adapt- look at what happened to general aviation in the 1980s, the vaccine industry, or playgrounds.  From my perspective, the Reagan era ushered in politicians that were eager to "kill the beast".  It's much easier to cut than to build- just ask "Chainsaw Al" Dunlop, and see what a wonderful job he did on Sunbeam.  So when the Reaganites, Bushites of George I and Loyal Bushies of George II have gotten done, we have a much less functional government that's no smaller and far deeper in debt.  I think they threw the baby out with the bathwater.

In terms of divorcing the Federal gov't from industry- that's a common mistake, but a costly one.  The federal gov't is the largest customer on the planet.  Like all large customers, it has its advantages and disadvantages, but in the advanced materials game where often the competitive edge is performance at any price- the Federal gov't can be a very good customer indeed.  Government customers have driven innovation through the centuries and they often are the first customer of new technologies- ranging from aluminum, to various metals, to fiberglass and computer chips.  You think the micro electronics industry would have come from industrial demands?  As late as 1960 (1965?), GE, that wonderful innovative paragon (NOT) was running full page ads in Life Magazine touting it's vacuum tube technology for computers  Chips would never have been developed without US defense contracts demanding new technology for artillery shells and missile guidance- while the Japanese stole the commercial show (good for them- we shouldn't be sore losers but we should learn from our mistakes)- Sony producing the first transistor radio which didn't use GEs wonderful vacuum tube technology.

My grumble is that the current gov't is a lousy first customer- and we're all suffering because of it.  But this can't be changed with lawsuits- but it has a fighting prayer of being changed at the ballet box.

Sam

(in reply to MrRodgers)
Profile   Post #: 60
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