9/11 non-sympathisers

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philosophy -> 9/11 non-sympathisers (9/11/2007 9:03:43 AM)
...the idea behind this thread is to create a space where people who feel uncomfortable with the current zeitgeist surrounding 9/11 can post without offending those who are genuinely upset. Leave those other threads alone if you disagree with the OP, just for once. Post here if you must. Personally i think that hanging on to the grief isn't healthy, i read a post where someone said something along the lines that not remembering so vividly disrespected the dead. So, if that's true ought we not also remember the innocent dead that have been killed in the various aftermaths? Shock and Awe come to mind. Oh, and if this thread offends you, please feel free to follow the same advice i gave to those whose disagree with your stance.

LotusSong -> RE: 9/11 non-sympathisers (9/11/2007 9:20:16 AM)
When we have this annual scab-picking, I can't help but think that those that DID perpetrate it, just laugh with glee up their sleeve at the ongoing sorrow. Then there is George, who is equally laughing with glee every time he uses this "boogy man" as his political lever. BTW, if we know when a Bin Laden tape is coming out, just about down to the minute, why isn't anyone sitting at the door of Aljazeera waiting for the currier to find out where HE came from and follow the trail back to the source?

Mercnbeth -> RE: 9/11 non-sympathisers (9/11/2007 9:27:20 AM)
quote: Oh, and if this thread offends you, please feel free to follow the same advice i gave to those whose disagree with your stance. I ask the people who disagree with my stance to make a point that challenges my position. What's your point with starting this thread? You want sympathy for others suffering in the world - you have it. You want me to consider that not ALL Muslims deserve the hatred many have toward them - you have it. You want me to have empathy for what's occurring in the Middle East - you have it. You want me not to feel a sense of loss and guilt associated with that day - you'll NEVER get it. Grief is not one of the emotions I associate with 9/11. Anger, frustration, and a sense of helplessness would be more accurate, all second only to a deep sense of personal guilt. Whenever the middle east is discussed it never fails to point to the past. The abuse of the locals by the British, the Israelis, the French, the Russians in Afghanistan, and of course now the US. However 9/11 as a benchmark for what's occurring now is always discounted. Indeed, the US media has done their best to make it a minor footnote cause. It's easier to point to oil and more political correct. But is wasn't oil, it wasn't the Illuminate, and wasn't Santa Clause. It was Radical Islam. More a State without borders rather than a religion. Oh, and this thread doesn't offend - it only disappoints.

Owner59 -> RE: 9/11 non-sympathisers (9/11/2007 9:29:24 AM)
Thanks Philosophy , Who would have thought that there would be a need for a non-symp thread? Anyone who wants a new asshole,I`ll reply to your garbage, here.

LotusSong -> RE: 9/11 non-sympathisers (9/11/2007 9:31:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth quote: Whenever the middle east is discussed it never fails to point to the past. The abuse of the locals by the British, the Israelis, the French, the Russians in Afghanistan, and of course now the US. However 9/11 as a benchmark for what's occurring now is always discounted. Indeed, the US media has done their best to make it a minor footnote cause. It's easier to point to oil and more political correct. But is wasn't oil, it wasn't the Illuminate, and wasn't Santa Clause. It was Radical Islam. More a State without borders rather than a religion. Oh, and this thread doesn't offend - it only disappoints. "Choose your enemies wisely, for you will become like them"

SmokingGun82 -> RE: 9/11 non-sympathisers (9/11/2007 9:34:40 AM)
I think that it's fine to remember the events, and even the thread discussing where you were seems to be fine. For me, September 11, 2001 is a lot like January 28, 1986- I'll never forget what I was doing, or where I was, either of those days. They're memories of times that were extremely emotional, and they're burned in good. That said, if I'm sad on 9/11 it's for an entirely selfish reason that has nothing to do with terrorism or anything else. I don't see a problem with remembering- in my opinion, the problem comes when people refuse to move on.

Owner59 -> RE: 9/11 non-sympathisers (9/11/2007 9:38:02 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SmokingGun82 I think that it's fine to remember the events, and even the thread discussing where you were seems to be fine. For me, September 11, 2001 is a lot like January 28, 1986- I'll never forget what I was doing, or where I was, either of those days. They're memories of times that were extremely emotional, and they're burned in good. That said, if I'm sad on 9/11 it's for an entirely selfish reason that has nothing to do with terrorism or anything else. I don't see a problem with remembering- in my opinion, the problem comes when people refuse to move on. Well put. My sadness is also entirely selfish.True also,your point about moving on.

philosophy -> RE: 9/11 non-sympathisers (9/11/2007 9:38:16 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth You want me not to feel a sense of loss and guilt associated with that day - you'll NEVER get it. Grief is not one of the emotions I associate with 9/11. Anger, frustration, and a sense of helplessness would be more accurate, all second only to a deep sense of personal guilt. Fair enough Merc.......your emotions are your own and i'm not trying to argue that they are either wrong or misplaced. However there are some who don't feel as you do......and they have the same right to self expression as you do. Check some of the other 9/11 threads, at least one had to be heavily moderated because what started as an expresion of grief or other emotions was being challenged by those who didn;t share those emotions. i agree with the fact of that moderation.....as one poster said, even if you hate the guy you don't badmouth him at his funeral. This thread is simply to give an outlet to those who feel differently to you and others. If that disappoints you Merc then that is sad.....but the thread title gave you fair warning so i don't feel the need to apologise.

SugarMyChurro -> RE: 9/11 non-sympathisers (9/11/2007 9:40:40 AM)
Very eloquently put, SmokingGun82.

Mercnbeth -> RE: 9/11 non-sympathisers (9/11/2007 9:54:01 AM)
quote: If that disappoints you Merc then that is sad.....but the thread title gave you fair warning so i don't feel the need to apologise. philo, Also fair enough, and I think you know me well enough that my point in posting wasn't in search of an apology. I came to my office late today because MSNBC was showing a real time re-broadcast of the events of that day. It was the first time I saw most of that. I never got off the NJ turnpike and made it back home until late that night, and at that point - I avoided the TV, or at best sat staring at it, for who knows how long, with the image not registering. During the six years since that day, I've Tivo'd many shows regarding the events of that day, rented all the movies, bought a few books; but could never bring myself to read or watch any of them. But today, I sat watching mesmerized. I watched it all. So I'll take the blame for my emotions and respect those that are in conflict. I apologize for "picking a scab" I thought had healed skin beneath. I missed being there by 2 hours because of a phone call from a man inviting me to golf the night before and whose last phone call was to me confirming our 'tee time' at 8:15 that morning. I'll be happy to discuss the plus and minus of any political or religious cause concerning the effect of 9/11. I'm happy to debate with the 'non-sympathizers' - Just not today.

philosophy -> RE: 9/11 non-sympathisers (9/11/2007 10:03:28 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth I'll be happy to discuss the plus and minus of any political or religious cause concerning the effect of 9/11. I'm happy to debate with the 'non-sympathizers' - Just not today. ..i have nothing but respect for that position......

sappatoti -> RE: 9/11 non-sympathisers (9/11/2007 10:42:18 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SmokingGun82 I think that it's fine to remember the events, and even the thread discussing where you were seems to be fine. For me, September 11, 2001 is a lot like January 28, 1986- I'll never forget what I was doing, or where I was, either of those days. They're memories of times that were extremely emotional, and they're burned in good. ... I, too, vividly remember where I was on January 28, 1986, and the sense of horror I felt that day was a bit more personal to me than what took place on 9/11.

Rule -> RE: 9/11 non-sympathisers (9/11/2007 10:44:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: philosophy one had to be heavily moderated because what started as an expresion of grief or other emotions was being challenged by those who didn;t share those emotions. i agree with the fact of that moderation..... I did not see any such challenge, nor any offense, nor any disrespect in those deleted posts; most certainly not in mine, which seemed the one of contention. (With the exception of the one person that wanted me to take ownership for his errors; that one was disrespectful towards me, but that did not have anything to do with the OP.) I did receive a desperate e-mail though, as a result of my post having been deleted. So I formulated my questions concerning various middle initials M. and such again in my answering e-mail to that complainant (who did not complain about me). What befell the other thread did show that 911 is an open wound. That is unhealthy.

ChicagoSwitchMal -> RE: 9/11 non-sympathisers (9/11/2007 10:50:38 AM)
I've said something similar in another thread. My thing is that unless you lost someone on 9/11 after six years it's time to move on. Not forget - just move on. As corny as it sounds thats what the terrorists want. They want us to remember this over and over... they want us to dwell on it... they want us to fear that it will happen to us. I won't give them the satisfaction. For those that did lose someone on 9/11 - their suffering may never end and that is understandable.

caitlyn -> RE: 9/11 non-sympathisers (9/11/2007 11:01:04 AM)
I have no sympathy for those with no sympathy. [sm=sodoff.gif]

cyberdude611 -> RE: 9/11 non-sympathisers (9/11/2007 11:20:46 AM)
There are certain people out there who try to use this event to further their own political goals. Yes, Rudy Giuliani uses 9/11 far too often in his political speeches. But the left wing also uses it to prove some sort of higher theory they suddenly came up with.....That it is America's fault. That it is our foreign policy or economic policy that provoked the attacks therefore we somehow deserved to be attacked. And that's flawed logic. It's almost like you are letting the terrorists off the hook completely agreeing with their message of anger and violence. To tell you the truth....I DONT GIVE A DAMN what provoked them. I don't care what we did or what they think we did. You don't hijack airplanes full of innocent people crash them into buildings. Did the people on those planes have anything to do with American foreign policy? Did the people in the WTC have anything to do with American foreign policy? No! So there is absolutely no justification for killing those people. Tim McVeigh blew up the Murrah Federal Building because of the FBI's abuse of power in Waco. Is that a justified terrorist attack? We villify that man so easily because he is a radical, white, right-wing christian. The left LOVES to vilify those people. But when it comes to Muslims hijacking airplanes....who's fault is it? America's. If Tim McVeigh had brown skin and was a muslim....I wonder who would be blamed... If you have read any sort of history you would know that for the last 1500 years there has been a vicious struggle between the west and Islam. And there is no sign this is changing. Frequently you hear these terrorists in their videotapes going on and on about the crusades...about the Battle of Tours. They are talking about events that go back several centuries ago. They are diving into things the United States had nothing to do with because this nation wasnt even born yet. However, the US is currently the heart and soul of the free-western world. We are also considered a Christian nation. And we are the only super-power in the world. And that makes us a very attractive target for every person who does not like the current world order. So when terrorists talk about America, they throw us into the same category as Europeans and the Roman Catholics. Notice how terrorists are right now hitting Europe even more than the US. It is because they are targetting THE WEST! Not America specifically. They hate western Europe just as much as they hate American policy. Until religions can figure out how to get along with each other, this is the type of world we are living in. And it's not going to change.

YourhandMyAss -> RE: 9/11 non-sympathisers (9/11/2007 11:26:20 AM)
Today is just another day to me. I'm probably wrong for not careing, but I'm not interested in being all sad or torn up over it I am indiffernt to it.

philosophy -> RE: 9/11 non-sympathisers (9/11/2007 11:31:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: caitlyn I have no sympathy for those with no sympathy. [sm=sodoff.gif] ..i'm considering an award, along the lines of Pahunks informal post of the day, for the best use of irony in a forum post......this is a definite contender [:)]

MstrSkyWoIf -> RE: 9/11 non-sympathisers (9/11/2007 11:47:39 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth quote: Oh, and if this thread offends you, please feel free to follow the same advice i gave to those whose disagree with your stance. I ask the people who disagree with my stance to make a point that challenges my position. What's your point with starting this thread? You want sympathy for others suffering in the world - you have it. You want me to consider that not ALL Muslims deserve the hatred many have toward them - you have it. You want me to have empathy for what's occurring in the Middle East - you have it. You want me not to feel a sense of loss and guilt associated with that day - you'll NEVER get it. Grief is not one of the emotions I associate with 9/11. Anger, frustration, and a sense of helplessness would be more accurate, all second only to a deep sense of personal guilt. Whenever the middle east is discussed it never fails to point to the past. The abuse of the locals by the British, the Israelis, the French, the Russians in Afghanistan, and of course now the US. However 9/11 as a benchmark for what's occurring now is always discounted. Indeed, the US media has done their best to make it a minor footnote cause. It's easier to point to oil and more political correct. But is wasn't oil, it wasn't the Illuminate, and wasn't Santa Clause. It was Radical Islam. More a State without borders rather than a religion. Oh, and this thread doesn't offend - it only disappoints. I could not have said it better myself.......... But I would like to add this food for thought Let us all take a moment on this, the 6th anniversary of the day our nation stood still.... Today Lets us pry for the family's who lost someone that day and for the family's who have lost loved ones sense that day in the war on terrorism and those who violated our nation that day. That day they did not only attack us they attacked the world for in the world tread centers there where members of countries from around the world and in doing as they did they showed there disregard for life and humanity. Let us never forget How soon we have forgotten September 11, 2001. I for one am saddened to see the protests around our nation about the war in Iraq.... So soon we as Americans forget why we are in this war overseas... How soon we forget how much terrorism has cost mankind here and around the world. This war is about more then one man or one nation it is about a group of religious zealots who say they fight to honor there God. The middle east is a hot bed for terrorist, a few hotheads who give the good people of the middle east a bad name. Let us not hate the many because of the few... More importantly Let us also not forget and support our troops and there family's. It is sad when a solder die's however it is much sadder that we as Americans forget that FREEDOM is not free and never has been. Our solders knew the risks when they signed up... Lets support them and thank them for doing a job many of us would never have the guts to do..... I take my hat off to them and there family's and say thank you from Me and My daughter for doing what you are to make sure terrorists never get a strong foot hold again as they ones had. No words can express my true feelings or could ever be enough.... So let me say ones again I salute our troops and give my heat felt thanks to all of you... You make us most of us very very proud.....

slaveboyforyou -> RE: 9/11 non-sympathisers (9/11/2007 11:48:47 AM)
I see your point, and I agree that refusing to let go of grief is unhealthy. However, it is not up to me or anyone else to tell people how they should grieve. When I was 14, my father took my brother, grandparents, my mother, my brother, and two cousins to Washington D.C. It was one stop on our vacation. We went to the museums and all the monuments, but the one I remember the most was the Vietnam Veteran's Memorial. My father was a infantry officer in Vietnam, but he didn't get choked up while we were there. It was the first time he has been to it since it had been built. I remember seeing a bunch of guys standing around the place in old OD fatigues with medals on. Later on I asked my dad why they did that. It wasn't a anniversary of the war or a special day or any kind. He just said they won't let go and left it that. But he didn't feel the need to walk up to these guys and say that. As I said, it is not up to anyone to tell people to get over it. When you take it upon yourself to tell someone that is upset how they should feel, than that shows a lack of class and manners in my opinion.

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