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SusanofO -> RE: 9/11 non-sympathisers (9/13/2007 4:14:24 AM)
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Owner59/meatcleaver/johnxinxscruz: You took what I said out of context. I said I was not in favor of warrantless searches, but if there ever was a good reason for them, and it averted a terrorist attack, and I had to make a choice - my choice would definitely be to avert the attack and overlook the warrantless search. You act as if this has never been done before. Trust me, it has been - WWII, Vietnam, and other wars, too. In any case, it might not be right - what I said was, if it couldn't be avoided, and would avert a terrorist attack, I'd do it. Quite different (IMO) from portraying it as something I advocate under any and all conditions. And in any case -
I am pretty tired of people who can't look at the following real progress as far as catching Terrorists (below), never seem to read facts pertinent to what is actually happening when they say they claim they want to debate a topic, and toss around their opinions as if they were "the facts". Well, we all have a right to our opinions, I suppose. Just don't expect me to revere them as if they mean as much as a real fact would mean (to me).
It's fine with me if you all want to end up in a room with some Terorrist, with a gun pointed at your head, proclaiming you will never give up your right to a warrantless phone tap - just don't expect everyone else to have that same tough armor (nonsensical, depending on the situation, IMO). If you want to do it, fine with me. Just don't gamble w/my safety, thanks.
If you think I am over-reacting, well, my reasoning is that if the U.S. has caught this Terrorists and foiled this many of their plots since 9-11, it (to me) means that the Terrorists are not exactly done" being Terrorists, and are still at work. And it strikes me as somewhat more effective a response to it, than bone-headed complacency.
IMO, these Terrorist people think nothing of killing others. It's their plan. Thye have training camps that teach people how to kill us. They will die just for the opportunity to do it. If you have forgotten the horror of 9-11, you have a very short memory.
*I do not want to discuss the war in Iraq. I already know it has zero to do with 9-11, so please don't bring it up.
In these kinds of discussions, the thing I never seem to hear is anyone who objects to "the way we are doing things" propose their own (supposedly better) plan for catching Terrorists. So, let's hear it. What is your fool-proof plan for catching Terrorists?
It is fine for people to whine (at the same time, no less) that our "rights" out being taken away and also that Bush "didn't do enough" to prevent 9-11.
However - Since 9-11 the U.S. has been quite active in catching Terrorists - not that anyone capable of blathering on and whining about what how bad off we are here in the U.S. for pages, would ever have the energy to look it up on the Internet (which takes about 1 minute, tops). Also, these Terrorists were around long before Bush was ever President, regardless of what h could or could not have done to prevent 9-11 from happening.
There is plenty of information on this site (below - see also the part labelled "Response to Terrorism") about exactly what the U.S. is doing to try to catch them, and listing at least 10-15 Terrorist plots the U.S. government has foiled (that could well have saved thousands of lives, and not all of them in the U.S. either, meatcleaver) since 9-11. And this is just the list until late 2005 - by now I am sure there are more.
If you find this all this work on behalf of your (and my) safety that objectionable, then maybe you should go try living in China, or Pakistan, or Afghanistan - where you'll undoubtedly be allowed tons of Internet access, religious freedoms, many of the other kinds of freedoms you've grown accustomed to, and that your heart could possibly desire.
07 October 2005
White House Issues List of 10 Foiled al-Qaida Plots
Foiled plots targeted U.S. government, tourists
In a major address outlining his strategy on the war against terrorism delivered to the National Endowment for Democracy October 6, President Bush said that 10 major al-Qaida plots were disrupted since September 11, 2001 -- two involving a plan to use commercial airliners to attack targets on the East and West Coasts of the United States. (See transcript.)
The president said the United States and its partners had also foiled at least five additional al-Qaida efforts to case potential U.S. government sites and locations frequented by tourists.
For more on U.S. policy, see Response to Terrorism. (Note: There is lots of information hereon what the U.S. is doing to stop Terrorism)
The following October 6 White House fact sheet offers background to the president's references:
(begin fact sheet)
THE WHITE HOUSE
Office of the Press Secretary
October 6, 2005
Plots, Casings, And Infiltrations Referenced In President Bush's Remarks On The War On Terror
"Overall, the United States and our partners have disrupted at least 10 serious al-Qaida terrorist plots since September 11 -- including three al-Qaida plots to attack inside the United States. We have stopped at least five more al-Qaida efforts to case targets in the United States or infiltrate operatives into our country."
10 PLOTS
1. The West Coast Airliner Plot: In mid-2002 the U.S. disrupted a plot to attack targets on the West Coast of the United States using hijacked airplanes. The plotters included at least one major operational planner involved in planning the events of 9/11.
2. The East Coast Airliner Plot: In mid-2003 the U.S. and a partner disrupted a plot to attack targets on the East Coast of the United States using hijacked commercial airplanes.
3. The Jose Padilla Plot: In May 2002 the U.S. disrupted a plot that involved blowing up apartment buildings in the United States. One of the plotters, Jose Padilla, also discussed the possibility of using a "dirty bomb" in the U.S.
4. The 2004 U.K. Urban Targets Plot: In mid-2004 the U.S. and partners disrupted a plot that involved urban targets in the United Kingdom. These plots involved using explosives against a variety of sites.
5. The 2003 Karachi Plot: In the Spring of 2003 the U.S. and a partner disrupted a plot to attack Westerners at several targets in Karachi, Pakistan.
6. The Heathrow Airport Plot: In 2003 the U.S. and several partners disrupted a plot to attack Heathrow Airport [outside London] using hijacked commercial airliners. The planning for this attack was undertaken by a major 9/11 operational figure.
7. The 2004 U.K. Plot: In the Spring of 2004 the U.S. and partners, using a combination of law enforcement and intelligence resources, disrupted a plot to conduct large-scale bombings in the U.K.
8. The 2002 Arabian Gulf Shipping Plot: In late 2002 and 2003 the U.S. and a partner nation disrupted a plot by al-Qa'ida operatives to attack ships in the Arabian Gulf.
9. The 2002 Straits of Hormuz Plot: In 2002 the U.S. and partners disrupted a plot to attack ships transiting the Straits of Hormuz.
10. The 2003 Tourist Site Plot: In 2003 the U.S. and a partner nation disrupted a plot to attack a tourist site outside the United States.
FIVE CASINGS AND INFILTRATIONS
1. The U.S. Government & Tourist Sites Tasking: In 2003 and 2004, an individual was tasked by al-Qa'ida to case important U.S. government and tourist targets within the United States.
2. The Gas Station Tasking: In approximately 2003, an individual was tasked to collect targeting information on U.S. gas stations and their support mechanisms on behalf of a senior al-Qa'ida planner.
3. Iyman Faris & the Brooklyn Bridge: In 2003, and in conjunction with a partner nation, the U.S. government arrested and prosecuted Iyman Faris, who was exploring the destruction of the Brooklyn Bridge in New York. Faris ultimately pleaded guilty to providing material support to al-Qa'ida and is now in a federal correctional institution.
4. 2001 Tasking: In 2001, al-Qa'ida sent an individual to facilitate post-September 11 attacks in the U.S. U.S. law enforcement authorities arrested the individual.
5. 2003 Tasking: In 2003, an individual was tasked by an al-Qa'ida leader to conduct reconnaissance on populated areas in the U.S.
(end fact sheet)
(Distributed by the Bureau of International Information Programs, U.S. Department of State. Web site: http://usinfo.state.gov)
- Susan
[Mod Note: images removed]
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