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RE: Police mull hate crime charges in WV attack - 9/13/2007 8:46:57 PM

LightHeartedMaam

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

CHARLESTON, W.Va. - Authorities said Tuesday they are considering hate crime charges in the case of a woman who was tortured while being held captive for at least a week, and they are investigating the possibility that she was lured by a man she met on the Internet.

The victim was repeatedly called a racial slur while her captors sexually abused, beat and stabbed her, her mother said.

Six people, all white, including a mother and son and a mother and daughter, were arrested in connection with the alleged abduction of the 20-year-old black woman.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20726968/?GT1=10357

This is why I don't engage in race play. Ya never know.

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RE: Police mull hate crime charges in WV attack - 9/13/2007 8:54:17 PM

popeye1250

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

quote:

ORIGINAL: orfunboi

They are not being charged with a hate crime so, no.

Well...

I just put out a hoop,and Popeye,luckdog,slaveboy and Argo,jumped right through it.

All I need is 3 rings and we`ll have a circus.

Seriuosly,I`m as aginst the government trying to control people`s thouthts,as anyone is.
But it seems that the only "victims",who ever gets sympathy from conservitive, free speech defenders,are crimials and scum,or Ann Coulter.

Where were they when Phil Donahue, Richard Bey,Bill Maher got fired for daring to critisize the president`s words or policies.

Hate crimes laws, make the crimanals lives tougher and their sentences longer.

What`s wrong with that?

Owner, you just jumped through your own hoop.
When you were a kid playing hide and seek did the kids ever try to find you when you were "it?"

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RE: Police mull hate crime charges in WV attack - 9/13/2007 9:39:02 PM

Owner59

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ArgoGeorgia

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Where were they when Phil Donahue, Richard Bey,Bill Maher got fired for daring to critisize the president`s words or policies.

Let's see - they were fired by a private business for saying something stupid, which is perfectly legitmate (Don Imus too!). Last time I checked, they didn't go to jail for their thoughts, though.

Yeah, great comparison there smarty.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59
Seriuosly,I`m as aginst the government trying to control people`s thouthts,as anyone is.

No, you aren't. You are for the government imprisoning people for their thoughts. You've already stated so. I feel these people deserve to be very severely punished for their actions.

Good try. Next.

My point was about the conservative ,so-called, free speech defenders.Not the individuals involved.

Nuff said.

You are for the government imprisoning people for their thoughts. You've already stated so.

No I haven`t.People can think and or say anything they want,but when it`s done during a crime,it becomes an aggravating component.

For example.If someone commits a robbery w/ out a weapon,he gets so many months/years of jail time.If he do the same crime with a gun or knife,the charges and jail time go up too.Because having the weapon is an aggravating circumstance.

Another example.Someone(an average/normal,regular person) crashes a car,and kills a pair of infant twins in the other car.

She will get charged and tried for Manslaughter.If she is found to have been drinking or drugging ,the charges/possible jail time, go up.It`s because the beer or pot are an aggravating circumstance.This is over and above the what the D/D charge,will bring.

I`m still puzzled about all the fuss over a criminal`s right to hate.

Why is this the battle,that conservatives have joined and staked out?

Are conservatives afraid that someone is going to infringe on "their ",rights to hate?

Could someone explain this,in normal,logical terms?

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 9/13/2007 9:42:29 PM >

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RE: Police mull hate crime charges in WV attack - 9/13/2007 9:40:48 PM

Owner59

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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

quote:

ORIGINAL: orfunboi

They are not being charged with a hate crime so, no.

Well...

I just put out a hoop,and Popeye,luckdog,slaveboy and Argo,jumped right through it.

All I need is 3 rings and we`ll have a circus.

Seriuosly,I`m as aginst the government trying to control people`s thouthts,as anyone is.
But it seems that the only "victims",who ever gets sympathy from conservitive, free speech defenders,are crimials and scum,or Ann Coulter.

Where were they when Phil Donahue, Richard Bey,Bill Maher got fired for daring to critisize the president`s words or policies.

Hate crimes laws, make the crimanals lives tougher and their sentences longer.

What`s wrong with that?

Owner, you just jumped through your own hoop.
When you were a kid playing hide and seek did the kids ever try to find you when you were "it?"

Not sure what you mean Popeye.How so?

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RE: Police mull hate crime charges in WV attack - 9/13/2007 9:45:52 PM

luckydog1

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Normal logical terms....The cases you cite, using a weopon, drinking and driving are actions, not thoughts, and you bet they should get extra punishment. You want to give the Gov the power to see into a persons mind, and punish them (extra) if they are thinking wrong. How can you set up a gov system to read peoples thoughts? Please explain that in logical terms. Not a single conservative has attempted to defend this trash, that is just another strawman argument made by you.

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RE: Police mull hate crime charges in WV attack - 9/13/2007 9:52:13 PM

Marc2b

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First things first. If those accused of this crime are truly guilty, I hope they are successfully prosecuted for their heinous actions and pay the full penalty of law.

quote:

Hate crimes laws, make the crimanals lives tougher and their sentences longer.

What`s wrong with that?

The problem with making certain thoughts (e.g. racists thought) or feelings (e.g. hate) criminal is that you’ve accepted the notion that it is okay to criminalize thoughts and feelings in the first place. When power shifts (as power always does) it may become your thoughts and feelings that are declared criminal and you have already abandoned intellectual defense to having the right to your own thoughts and feelings.

If people want to have racists or hateful thoughts, they can do so all day long and it shouldn’t be anybody else’s business. If they translate those thoughts into actions, that’s a different matter.

There is also the matter of society place more value on some people than on others. This is something humanity has been doing pretty much since day one and I am surprised that the oceans aren’t red because of it. This is something we want to get away from and we can start by insisting that the government treat us all equally before the law.

It is perfectly legitimate to use a person’s known beliefs in the investigation phase of a crime. If a black man is found laying beaten to death on the street it wouldn’t be out of order to talk to the people in the house nearby – the one with swastikas and "white power" spray painted on it. It would be legitimate to bring known racist altitudes in as evidence of motivation. However, when a guilty verdict is returned all that should go out the window. In sentencing the only thing that should matter is that you (the convicted decedent) violated the most precious right we have. The one without which all other rights are meaningless. The right to life. No victim’s life should be held to be any more or less valuable than any other’s. It should not matter if the victim is white, black, male, female, old, young, heterosexual, homosexual, etc. The fact that the victim was a human being should be sufficient reason to lock up the murderer for life. And I mean LIFE.

For the record, I am against the death penalty. Not because I don’t think there aren’t some truly evil mother fuckers who deserve it but because I don’t trust the government not to screw up and convict innocent people now and then.

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RE: Police mull hate crime charges in WV attack - 9/13/2007 10:02:08 PM

Owner59

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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

Normal logical terms....The cases you cite, using a weopon, drinking and driving are actions, not thoughts, and you bet they should get extra punishment. You want to give the Gov the power to see into a persons mind, and punish them (extra) if they are thinking wrong. How can you set up a gov system to read peoples thoughts? Please explain that in logical terms. Not a single conservative has attempted to defend this trash, that is just another strawman argument made by you.

You want to give the Gov the power to see into a persons mind, and punish them (extra) if they are thinking wrong.

Well actually the gov. already looks into a persons mind.And have been for hundreds of years,btw.

For example,if someone kills in a moment of passion or stress,but without premeditation,they will get charged with 3rd or 2nd degree murder.

If that same person does a premeditated murder, in cold blood,that`s 1st degree murder.

The only real difference here,are thoughts(and not actions).See?

How can you set up a gov system to read peoples thoughts? Please explain that in logical terms.

They already have,it`s called a jury of your peers,considering the crimes, plus every aggravating circumstance,and every mitigating circumstance.Again,something that`s been going on in court rooms for hundreds of years.

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 9/13/2007 10:33:28 PM >

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RE: Police mull hate crime charges in WV attack - 9/13/2007 10:30:59 PM

Owner59

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

First things first. If those accused of this crime are truly guilty, I hope they are successfully prosecuted for their heinous actions and pay the full penalty of law.

quote:

Hate crimes laws, make the crimanals lives tougher and their sentences longer.

What`s wrong with that?

The problem with making certain thoughts (e.g. racists thought) or feelings (e.g. hate) criminal is that you’ve accepted the notion that it is okay to criminalize thoughts and feelings in the first place. When power shifts (as power always does) it may become your thoughts and feelings that are declared criminal and you have already abandoned intellectual defense to having the right to your own thoughts and feelings.

If people want to have racists or hateful thoughts, they can do so all day long and it shouldn’t be anybody else’s business. If they translate those thoughts into actions, that’s a different matter.

There is also the matter of society place more value on some people than on others. This is something humanity has been doing pretty much since day one and I am surprised that the oceans aren’t red because of it. This is something we want to get away from and we can start by insisting that the government treat us all equally before the law.

It is perfectly legitimate to use a person’s known beliefs in the investigation phase of a crime. If a black man is found laying beaten to death on the street it wouldn’t be out of order to talk to the people in the house nearby – the one with swastikas and "white power" spray painted on it. It would be legitimate to bring known racist altitudes in as evidence of motivation. However, when a guilty verdict is returned all that should go out the window. In sentencing the only thing that should matter is that you (the convicted decedent) violated the most precious right we have. The one without which all other rights are meaningless. The right to life. No victim’s life should be held to be any more or less valuable than any other’s. It should not matter if the victim is white, black, male, female, old, young, heterosexual, homosexual, etc. The fact that the victim was a human being should be sufficient reason to lock up the murderer for life. And I mean LIFE.

For the record, I am against the death penalty. Not because I don’t think there aren’t some truly evil mother fuckers who deserve it but because I don’t trust the government not to screw up and convict innocent people now and then.

1st off, thank you for the polite and thought filled reply.

The problem with making certain thoughts (e.g. racists thought) or feelings (e.g. hate) criminal is that you’ve accepted the notion that it is okay to criminalize thoughts and feelings in the first place.

I don`t think so.A racist can rant and spew all over the place all they want,and they do,with full protection from our Constitution.
It`s when that is mixed with crime,that it goes over the line.

You can`t yell "FIRE" in a crowded room (unless there really is a fire)legally.
Words that incite violece(hate speech),or cause a riot,or a deadly stampede,are not acceptable.

I think we(the US),strikes the right ballance,between a racist`s rights to spew hate,and our rights to be protected from the harm those words cause.

When power shifts (as power always does) it may become your thoughts and feelings that are declared criminal and you have already abandoned intellectual defense to having the right to your own thoughts and feelings.

Unless the bigots and thug racists are going to take over,this really isn`t a concern for me.

There is also the matter of society place more value on some people than on others. This is something humanity has been doing pretty much since day one and I am surprised that the oceans aren’t red because of it. This is something we want to get away from and we can start by insisting that the government treat us all equally before the law.

Not completely true.The gov. recognizes that there are certain groups that are more vulnerable than others.Old folks,children,religious folks and people who are singled out because of race,creed,religious preference,etc.This is not out of the norm.

It is perfectly legitimate to use a person’s known beliefs in the investigation phase of a crime. If a black man is found laying beaten to death on the street it wouldn’t be out of order to talk to the people in the house nearby – the one with swastikas and "white power" spray painted on it. It would be legitimate to bring known racist altitudes in as evidence of motivation. However, when a guilty verdict is returned all that should go out the window. In sentencing the only thing that should matter is that you (the convicted decedent) violated the most precious right we have. The one without which all other rights are meaningless. The right to life. No victim’s life should be held to be any more or less valuable than any other’s. It should not matter if the victim is white, black, male, female, old, young, heterosexual, homosexual, etc. The fact that the victim was a human being should be sufficient reason to lock up the murderer for life. And I mean LIFE.

What if a life isn`t taken?What if someone`s cripled or maimed,or loses a limb?
Or beat up,and slabed,and raped?Like the poor child,mentioned in the OP.

What`s the big deal,about giving the scum,more jail time?
Please,I`m truly interested to know.Whats the rub,here?Why are people(ok,some conservatives) so concerned,with criminals?

For the record, I am against the death penalty. Not because I don’t think there aren’t some truly evil mother fuckers who deserve it but because I don’t trust the government not to screw up and convict innocent people now and then.

I so agree with that. These blood thirsty conservatives,wouldn`t give an ounce of faith in government.But they are so fucking sure they can figure out who killed who,and what the truth is,in death penalty cases.

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 9/13/2007 10:51:04 PM >

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RE: Police mull hate crime charges in WV attack - 9/13/2007 11:57:21 PM

luckydog1

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No, actually premeditation requires that a person takes concrete action to prepare for a crime. It is not the same as seeing a motive.

Juries decide on wether or not events took place. Circumstances are actions and events, not thoughts or feelings.

You still have yet to show a single "conservative" who has sympathy for these folks, whom you compare to Donahue.

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RE: Police mull hate crime charges in WV attack - 9/14/2007 4:06:51 AM

mons

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greetings

i was raised to see people for what they are and if i am treat and respected i am OK with all kinds of folks. i had my share of being called the n word but i just let it fall of my shoulder,. but i am hearted broken that in this day and age it is still black and white not just people, i have a niece who lives in upper pa . a woman who happen to be white said she called her a racial slur and knowing my niece and with her kids with her taking them to a bus stop for school. you would not believe what happen they arrested her with out a bench warrant and then they chain her to a wheel chair. i cry so hard she is not use to this and was so in shock her husband is white. they said things like no "nigger will swim in my lake wished she had never moved there. the state police told her i like my meat white. now i think everyone has right to say what they want, but certain people are just not to have hate within their person and those people are doctors ., teacher and police. yes it it hard to believe but hate is so alive in this place we called the united states of America and if anyone does not believe we as black Americans do not feel shock and pain is so wrong the shock alone made me ill for months . i am truly sad but i think if anyone has that type of hate within them , they most likely dislike themselves deeply.

Mons ( i am writing better everyone i had a condition called "walled eyes it was do to a hit on the back of my head this is where the optic nerves are i now am wearing some thick special glasses and wow i see so well now. ) i am so happy

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RE: Police mull hate crime charges in WV attack - 9/14/2007 6:08:54 AM

ArgoGeorgia

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

My point was about the conservative ,so-called, free speech defenders.Not the individuals involved.

Nuff said.

And I pointed out how your point was completely irrelevant to the task at hand. And there are plenty of examples of 'liberal' so called free speech defenders who themselves try to shut down free speech they disagree with. Not just a conservative trait.

Nuff said.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

You are for the government imprisoning people for their thoughts. You've already stated so.

No I haven`t.People can think and or say anything they want,but when it`s done during a crime,it becomes an aggravating component.
For example.If someone commits a robbery w/ out a weapon,he gets so many months/years of jail time.If he do the same crime with a gun or knife,the charges and jail time go up too.Because having the weapon is an aggravating circumstance.
Another example.Someone(an average/normal,regular person) crashes a car,and kills a pair of infant twins in the other car.
She will get charged and tried for Manslaughter.If she is found to have been drinking or drugging ,the charges/possible jail time, go up.It`s because the beer or pot are an aggravating circumstance.This is over and above the what the D/D charge,will bring.
I`m still puzzled about all the fuss over a criminal`s right to hate.
Why is this the battle,that conservatives have joined and staked out?
Are conservatives afraid that someone is going to infringe on "their ",rights to hate?
Could someone explain this,in normal,logical terms?

As others have already stated, all of your examples are already considered crimes or are actions which are criminal, so it is perfectly logical that they should be considered aggravating circumstances. If you were to do any of them alone without the initial crime, they would still be considered crimes. Brandish/carry/conceal a weapon without a permit, a crime. Drive while under the influence, a crime.

The BIG difference is that hating is NOT a crime, nor should it be. Because one of the burdens of living in a free society is that you have to take the good with the bad. You, on the otherhand, don't like the bad, and so want to criminalize it. I'm not making a fuss over a criminal's right to hate. It is a person's right to hate. Just like you seem to hate 'conservatives' with the way you throw it around as an epithet. No one here is saying that these people should be punished for their actions, and I'm insulted that you keep implying this. We are saying that you cannot legislate thought and emotion, no matter how much you would like to.

I can't explain this any more logically than that. You refuse to listen and think. Instead you have a knee-jerk reaction "evil conservative alert, evil conservative alert" (even though as stated I'm not a conservative). In fact, you set the tone of the debate with your very first idiotic post:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59
Are we going to have the usual upset ,and ranting by conservitives,that charging them w/ a hate crime is "thought policing",and somehow,"un-fair"?

It`s usually scum like this,that get all the simpathy from anti-hate crime crowd.

So, good for you. Way to open up the lines of communication and taking the time to really listen. Be proud.

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RE: Police mull hate crime charges in WV attack - 9/14/2007 6:23:19 AM

ArgoGeorgia

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59
I so agree with that. These blood thirsty conservatives,wouldn`t give an ounce of faith in government.But they are so fucking sure they can figure out who killed who,and what the truth is,in death penalty cases.

It's absolutely amazing the amount of crap one person can spew, and scary that said person actually believes what they are saying.

You obviously have a deep-seated hatred of conservatives. Be advised that if you should happen to commit a crime against someone and that person happens to be a card-carrying member of the GOP, you are eligible for your wonderful hate-crime laws.

I have an example and I'm wondering how your absolutely twisted logic would answer it.

Example 1: Black person beats up and robs another black person while screaming racial epithets and all of that good stuff. Is this a hate crime?
Example 2: Black person beats up and robs a white person while screaming racial epithets. Hate crime?
Example 3: White person beats up and robs a black person while screaming racial epithets. I'm guessing that this is probably your standard definition for a hate crime.
Example 4: White person beats up and robs a black person, but never once says a racial slur and says "Sorry I had to do this, have a nice day." Hate crime?

So, tell me this. I see four crimes, ALL of which had a component of hate to it. Even example 4, because in order to carry out a violent crime such as what we have been discussing, there has to be hate in the person. Hate for something. All of them to me are the EXACT same crime, regardless of what was said or thought during the commission of the crime. All 4 should be punished just as severely as the others. And this is only a guess, can't find the statistics, but I'm thinking only example 3 is the type of scenario that typically falls under hate-crime consideration. Why is that?

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RE: Police mull hate crime charges in WV attack - 9/14/2007 8:05:07 AM

Owner59

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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

No, actually premeditation requires that a person takes concrete action to prepare for a crime. It is not the same as seeing a motive.

Juries decide on wether or not events took place. Circumstances are actions and events, not thoughts or feelings.

You still have yet to show a single "conservative" who has sympathy for these folks, whom you compare to Donahue.

Nope,while actions can prove premeditation,the big difference is thought.

If you enter a home intending to kill,that`s one thing.If it just happens out of the blue,w/ no forethought,then it`s not 1st degree murder.

The difference is thought,and yes,the state considers that,and attempts to ferret out the facts(as much as they can),to determine,"state of mind".

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RE: Police mull hate crime charges in WV attack - 9/14/2007 9:04:18 AM

Owner59

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ArgoGeorgia

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59
I so agree with that. These blood thirsty conservatives,wouldn`t give an ounce of faith in government.But they are so fucking sure they can figure out who killed who,and what the truth is,in death penalty cases.

It's absolutely amazing the amount of crap one person can spew, and scary that said person actually believes what they are saying.

You obviously have a deep-seated hatred of conservatives. Be advised that if you should happen to commit a crime against someone and that person happens to be a card-carrying member of the GOP, you are eligible for your wonderful hate-crime laws.

I have an example and I'm wondering how your absolutely twisted logic would answer it.

Example 1: Black person beats up and robs another black person while screaming racial epithets and all of that good stuff. Is this a hate crime?
Example 2: Black person beats up and robs a white person while screaming racial epithets. Hate crime?
Example 3: White person beats up and robs a black person while screaming racial epithets. I'm guessing that this is probably your standard definition for a hate crime.
Example 4: White person beats up and robs a black person, but never once says a racial slur and says "Sorry I had to do this, have a nice day." Hate crime?

So, tell me this. I see four crimes, ALL of which had a component of hate to it. Even example 4, because in order to carry out a violent crime such as what we have been discussing, there has to be hate in the person. Hate for something. All of them to me are the EXACT same crime, regardless of what was said or thought during the commission of the crime. All 4 should be punished just as severely as the others. And this is only a guess, can't find the statistics, but I'm thinking only example 3 is the type of scenario that typically falls under hate-crime consideration. Why is that?

You obviously have a deep-seated hatred of conservatives.

Nope,I voted for Tom Kean,my governor here in Jersey.(I`m from NJ,I`m allowed to call it Jersey)
I have a huge amount of admiration and respect for Eisenhower,Ford,and Bush I.When Tom Ridge was governor of PA,I liked him,as I did w/ George Pataki of NY.

I like,enjoy and respect conservative talk show host John McLaughlin,Tucker Carlson.I used to like and respect Tony Snow,before he sold his soul to satan.
There are plenty of conservitives that deserve and get respect.Neo-conservatives deserve a golden shower,and bitch slapping.

Be advised that if you should happen to commit a crime against someone and that person happens to be a card-carrying member of the GOP, you are eligible for your wonderful hate-crime laws.

?? <chuckles> Is that an attempt to be cleaver?

I have an example and I'm wondering how your absolutely twisted logic would answer it.

Example 1: Black person beats up and robs another black person while screaming racial epithets and all of that good stuff. Is this a hate crime?
Example 2: Black person beats up and robs a white person while screaming racial epithets. Hate crime?
Example 3: White person beats up and robs a black person while screaming racial epithets. I'm guessing that this is probably your standard definition for a hate crime.
Example 4: White person beats up and robs a black person, but never once says a racial slur and says "Sorry I had to do this, have a nice day." Hate crime?

So, tell me this. I see four crimes, ALL of which had a component of hate to it. Even example 4, because in order to carry out a violent crime such as what we have been discussing, there has to be hate in the person. Hate for something. All of them to me are the EXACT same crime, regardless of what was said or thought during the commission of the crime. All 4 should be punished just as severely as the others. And this is only a guess, can't find the statistics, but I'm thinking only example 3 is the type of scenario that typically falls under hate-crime consideration. Why is that?

I never answer hypotheticals,and I especially don`t compare multiple hypothetical scenarios.
There`s just to many hypotheticals there...

But this is all getting away from my point.

What is the rub?

Exactly what is it, that law abiding citizens are losing ,by having hate crime laws?

What freedom have I lost(or any American),because of hate crime laws?

This isn`t a trick question.If it`s so obvious,you should have real and potent answers.

Why do conservatives(I`ve never heard a liberal/regular/normal person talk about this) get upset and have a problem with this?

I understand the natural reaction by folks,to not want the government getting into judging or scrutinizing people`s thoughts.That`s a given.But that is not what we`re talking about here.We`re talking about the worst scum alive,when they`re being judged for crimes.

Why is anyone sympathizing with this scum?

Can I get some clear answers?Something w/ some meat on it?

Is it a gut reaction,that`s hard to explain?Or something more concrete.Is it that you also want to hate,and don`t want gov.interference?

I`d prefer answers and debate ,over personal comments and fluff.
But,that`s just me.

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 9/14/2007 9:35:23 AM >

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RE: Police mull hate crime charges in WV attack - 9/14/2007 9:11:57 AM

Sinergy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ArgoGeorgia

Punish the criminal actions, not the thoughts.

Well put.

Sinergy

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RE: Police mull hate crime charges in WV attack - 9/14/2007 9:27:09 AM

Owner59

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From: Dirty Jersey
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

ORIGINAL: ArgoGeorgia

Punish the criminal actions, not the thoughts.

Well put.

Sinergy

So if you pull a pistol ,shoot and kill your SO`s lover,when you catch them fucking,you should be charged w/ 1st degree murder,a capital crime?

What`s left to up the ante,for those that premeditate,or hire a killer,etc.

Sorry folks,state of mind, has been a consideration for centuries.

Thoughts do count,with criminal behavior,and with judging criminal behavior.

Is there a lawyer in the house?lol

Why are people defending scum?It can`t be the "first they took the Jews and the gypsys,then they took the others ,and so on,and them they came for me ,and there was no one left", type scenario(the famous words by the German preist after WWII). It`s certainly not that.

Or is it?

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RE: Police mull hate crime charges in WV attack - 9/14/2007 9:40:47 AM

luckydog1

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well as one who wants the death penalty for 1st degree murder upping the ante is not really an issue. Do you want to torture them before they are executed?

So you want thought crime laws, and want to use this tradgedy to push it through, seems rather sick to me, but hey go for it.

Hiring a killer and the actions that proove premeditation are actions, not thoughts.

You still have not show anyone who is defending scum. You want them punished less than I do (after the trial which seems rather open and shut at this point).

You are honestly asking why anyone would favor free speech and oppose criminalising thought? I guess you just don't get it.

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RE: Police mull hate crime charges in WV attack - 9/14/2007 9:41:41 AM

domiguy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ArgoGeorgia

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Where were they when Phil Donahue, Richard Bey,Bill Maher got fired for daring to critisize the president`s words or policies.

Let's see - they were fired by a private business for saying something stupid, which is perfectly legitmate (Don Imus too!). Last time I checked, they didn't go to jail for their thoughts, though.

Yeah, great comparison there smarty.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59
Seriuosly,I`m as aginst the government trying to control people`s thouthts,as anyone is.

No, you aren't. You are for the government imprisoning people for their thoughts. You've already stated so. I feel these people deserve to be very severely punished for their actions.

Good try. Next.

True. the analogy between what happened to Maher, Donahue and Imus have little relevance to the topic...However, I agree with the hate crime legislation...It can be enforced when someones hateful thoughts based upon race age sex...etc...Turn into an action...Consider it a little extra bonus of time to be served for being such an idiot.

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RE: Police mull hate crime charges in WV attack - 9/14/2007 9:50:45 AM

ArgoGeorgia

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Nope,I voted for Tom Kean,my governor here in Jersey.(I`m from NJ,I`m allowed to call it Jersey)
I have a huge amount of admiration and respect for Eisenhower,Ford,and Bush I.When Tom Ridge was governor of PA,I liked him,as I did w/ George Pataki of NY.

I like,enjoy and respect conservative talk show host John McLaughlin,Tucker Carlson.I used to like and respect Tony Snow,before he sold his soul to satan.
There are plenty of conservitives that deserve and get respect.Neo-conservatives deserve a golden shower,and bitch slapping.

Not once did you say neo-conservative in all of your little snarky comments above. But, that's fine. You hate neo-conservatives. That's cool.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59
?? <chuckles> Is that an attempt to be cleaver?

Nope, it was an attempt to be clever though. Sorry it didn't work with you. I always need to remember the audience, I guess.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59
I never answer hypothetical,and I especially don`t compare multiple hypothetical scenarios.
There`s just to mans hypothetical there...

Well, isn't that convenient.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59
Exactly what is it, that law abiding citizens are losing ,by having hate crime laws?

What freedom have I lost(or any American),because of hate crime laws?

I understand the natural reaction by folks,to not want the government getting into judging or scrutinizing people`s thoughts.That`s a given.But that is not what we`re talking about here.We`re talking about the worst scum alive.

Aye, that be the rub right there. It is just yet another example of the loss of freedom in America, and folks like you don't seem to care. As long as it is happening to someone else - aka 'that scum' - why should we care? Why should we care that they torture terrorists, what freedoms have we Americans lost? THey are the worst scum alive, so it's ok.

We should care because thought - no matter how hate-filled or evil it may be - should NOT be criminalized. And hate crimes do exactly that, criminalize thought. I'm sorry that you really are unable to see this.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59
Why is anyone sympathizing with this scum?

Please stop throwing this idiotic argument out. No one here is showing sympathy for the scum. We detest the scum. We just don't want to see thought criminalized. This has been stated to you many times now, please try to pick up on it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59
I so agree with that. These blood thirsty conservatives,wouldn`t give an ounce of faith in government.But they are so fucking sure they can figure out who killed who,and what the truth is,in death penalty cases.

It appears from here that you are against the death penalty. How can you sympathize with this scum? What kind of evil must lurk in your heart to oppose justice? Why I are you concerned about their rights. Us freedom loving Americans have nothing to fear. Oh, just maybe we can get it wrong and convict an innocent man? Well, unless you or the government can read thoughts 100% of the time with 100% accuracy, isn't it possible you could get a hate-crime conviction wrong? Criminalizing thought requires an omnicient judge - someone who knows at the time of the crime what a person was thinking and feeling. If you can't do that, you have no grounds for passing judgement.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59
Can I get some clear answers?Something w/ some meat on it?

Is it a gut reaction,that`s hard to explain?Or something more concrete.Is it that you also want to hate,and don`t want gov.interference?

I could throw you a side of beef and you still couldn't get the meat I think. We have handed you many many reasons, all of which you fail to comprehend.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59
I`d prefer answers and debate ,over personal comments and fluff.
But,that`s just me.

LOL I literally laughed out loud when I read this. Let's find some of your greatest non-fluff non-personal comments:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59
Are we going to have the usual upset ,and ranting by conservitives,that charging them w/ a hate crime is "thought policing",and somehow,"un-fair"? It`s usually scum like this,that get all the simpathy from anti-hate crime crowd.

But it seems that the only "victims",who ever gets sympathy from conservitive, free speech defenders,are crimials and scum,or Ann Coulter. Where were they when Phil Donahue, Richard Bey,Bill Maher got fired for daring to critisize the president`s words or policies.

Why is this the battle,that conservatives have joined and staked out? Are conservatives afraid that someone is going to infringe on "their ",rights to hate?

What`s the big deal,about giving the scum,more jail time?
Please,I`m truly interested to know.Whats the rub,here?Why are people(ok,some conservatives) so concerned,with criminals?

These blood thirsty conservatives...

I never answer hypotheticals,and I especially don`t compare multiple hypothetical scenarios (but yet earlier bringing up your own hypotheticals to compare to...
For example.If someone commits a robbery w/ out a weapon,he gets so many months/years of jail time.If he do the same crime with a gun or knife,the charges and jail time go up too.Because having the weapon is an aggravating circumstance.
Another example.Someone(an average/normal,regular person) crashes a car,and kills a pair of infant twins in the other car.
She will get charged and tried for Manslaughter.If she is found to have been drinking or drugging ,the charges/possible jail time, go up.It`s because the beer or pot are an aggravating circumstance.This is over and above the what the D/D charge,will bring.

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RE: Police mull hate crime charges in WV attack - 9/14/2007 9:53:41 AM

ArgoGeorgia

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quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy
True. the analogy between what happened to Maher, Donahue and Imus have little relevance to the topic...However, I agree with the hate crime legislation...It can be enforced when someones hateful thoughts based upon race age sex...etc...Turn into an action...Consider it a little extra bonus of time to be served for being such an idiot.

If we could criminalize idiocy, we would need much bigger prisons. I say let the actions speak for themselves. If the penalties aren't severe enough for the action, then change the laws. Don't try to pull a psychic act and try to prove a persons thoughts. Judge them on their actions.

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