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Admiration for the Survivor - 9/12/2007 8:36:47 PM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline 		As I read Bita's Thread in the Submissive section "Feelings of Worthlessness"... I come to a realization of myself.

We have talked about Individuals that have this White Knight Complex.  Individuals that seem to seek victims to rescue and heal.   But.... there is this other issue of a different sort....

Admiration of the Survivor....

I realized that when learn of a person and. learn that have become victimized in their pasts.. but found themselves out of the victimizaton... found themselves into a point of what I call a survivor. ... I can't help but admire these individuals.  In some ways.... I find such female individuals to more attractive to me after I have learned the knowledge.

I suppose it's because I make some character judgements of the person because they have moved beyond being victim.   As a Sadist... the see some incredible strengths in survivors... and as survivors... I see them as pushing my sadistic buttons.   As a sadist... I am not seeking the breaking point.. but seeking endurance and strength.  I preceive survivors as strong... and they push my button as a result.

Now.. of course... not all survivors are masocistic...  but... I do admire the strengths that I perceive with survivors.... and can't help imagine a thing or two.

So.. what do Survivors do for you?


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Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.
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RE: Admiration for the Survivor - 9/12/2007 8:48:34 PM   
RRafe


Posts: 2060
Joined: 8/29/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

As I read Bita's Thread in the Submissive section "Feelings of Worthlessness"... I come to a realization of myself.

We have talked about Individuals that have this White Knight Complex.  Individuals that seem to seek victims to rescue and heal.   But.... there is this other issue of a different sort....

Admiration of the Survivor....

I realized that when learn of a person and. learn that have become victimized in their pasts.. but found themselves out of the victimizaton... found themselves into a point of what I call a survivor. ... I can't help but admire these individuals.  In some ways.... I find such female individuals to more attractive to me after I have learned the knowledge.

I suppose it's because I make some character judgements of the person because they have moved beyond being victim.   As a Sadist... the see some incredible strengths in survivors... and as survivors... I see them as pushing my sadistic buttons.   As a sadist... I am not seeking the breaking point.. but seeking endurance and strength.  I preceive survivors as strong... and they push my button as a result.

Now.. of course... not all survivors are masocistic...  but... I do admire the strengths that I perceive with survivors.... and can't help imagine a thing or two.

So.. what do Survivors do for you?



Warn me what not to be.

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RE: Admiration for the Survivor - 9/12/2007 9:56:04 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		Not sure.  There is admiration, respect, some amount of hope. 

But as someone who grew up in a generation where ADD and eating disorders and bipolar became nearly epidemic- it's hard for me to get perspective.  I'm cynical, and jaded, and resentful in some ways. 

We've all got it hard- why is the woman who FINALLY left her husband AFTER he beat her and her kids so bad that they had to go to the hospital celebrated a bit more than the woman who chose a stable husband and led a boring simple life together?

I don't let my own issues interfere with understanding anothers strength, but they still exist.

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RE: Admiration for the Survivor - 9/12/2007 10:22:03 PM   
Perplex


Posts: 110
Joined: 8/27/2007
Status: offline 		...the orginal post put me in mind of child rearing,
We've all seen the brats who run around, selfish with a sense of self importance they will never grow out of, why? cuz they never had to grow out of it.  They never had to take a back seat when they had a booboo to other issues which might be more pressing at the moment. 

But then you see kids who are raised "wrong"...poorly, badly.  Not abuse just on that cutting line between neglect and too little and they grow up to be what we as a society value, ministers, doctors, diplomats, engineers.  It was the self reliance they learned "surviving" the bad times which gave them the ability to do good work later on.  None of htem will ever be a member of the Skull & Bones but without them those things within our society we say we value --and clearly need, wouldn't work. 

so what do you do? raise your kid badly so he grows up to be one of the good guys?  that is counter logical to being a parent which brings me back to the orginal post.  I agree that duress does bring out the best in some people and those that get through more or less in tact can be much more fun to play with because they do know how far is too far and with this sense everybody can relax...it's not like having a fresh sub who freaks at the first crack of a single tail.

Over the long haul having a playmate/sub who has gotten through harsh life lessons is a benefit, assuming the dom will take into account the baggage that goes with it.  And I can see from a sadists standpoint how the strength a survivor brings would be a good thing, the question then becomes if you are a true sadist to you do as you please or with the sub's possible weak spots remembered?

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RE: Admiration for the Survivor - 9/12/2007 10:29:10 PM   
LATEXBABY64


Posts: 2107
Joined: 4/8/2004
Status: offline 		There is a star trek movie in which kirk says I do not want my pain taken away it is apart of who i am. Who we are.
every thing we come in to contact in in life makes up a little of us. Nothing in the world can change that. But it can guide us on how to make a better furture if we learn from it. Most do not learn from it  in that lays the problem

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RE: Admiration for the Survivor - 9/12/2007 10:46:30 PM   
Driver1961


Posts: 459
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline 		He dips His lid:

Gees KOM.  Are you some sort of sicko?  You see strength in a submissive so much that you want to dominate them but not break that strength???

Man o man- you are so healthy in this regard!   I see/feel the same.  .

Expanding your comments to my own-  I see the fact that a survivor of  'intense life dominating personal pain' exists past those experiences is exaltation in itself. The strength to simply exist has so many facets to it. Strength in isolation, raising a family, holding down a job, behaving as so called 'normal people' yet knowing a darkness pervades them - yet they exist until they yearn to 'live'. Tainted is a negative term in my mind but suits some perspectives.

The survivor has difficulty accepting the strength One admires in them until they realize it is a validation of what they want to be / what they are/ as a survivor. .  A part of any person's journey is to humbly accept strengths others see in them.

I am drawn to anyone that has strength of self awareness based upon their life experiences and believe all survivors of physical and psychological abuse (the worthless thread) have the strength that I admire.

The road to self-peace ( not recovery) for survivors is not easy and reinforces the 'strength' they used to exist prior. 

Recovery is a misnomer because what does one recover to? A 'normal person'? They recover to the person they would have been? 

They do neither but become the person they are at peace with and live life as they choose to live.  A sense of being that had previously eluded their existance.   Now that is beautiful, admirable and positively alluring to me.

Now in the BDSM world this survivor complements my ethos when that 'treasure' favours her growth with acknowledgement that I complement her being.

That is the pinnacle of what pushes my buttons!

Warm regards to all. Driver. 

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RE: Admiration for the Survivor - 9/12/2007 11:20:33 PM   
Driver1961


Posts: 459
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

We've all got it hard- why is the woman who FINALLY left her husband AFTER he beat her and her kids so bad that they had to go to the hospital celebrated a bit more than the woman who chose a stable husband and led a boring simple life together? EDITED


I Think I understand your comments here L/A. please correct me if wrong. 
The person who had a stable life partner and stable life is simply part of the 'accepted of society'. The other person who tends to be celebrated (which could be a male) has generally got themselves into situations from lacking strategies the 'stable person' takes for granted and often views as nonsensical that others don't possess that strategy. It simply doesn't fit their perspective.

The 'other person' (who lacks many of what we take for granted strategies) makes mistakes, gets trauma because of it and continues into more trauma without understanding why they cannot breaking the cycle but thinking their next step will be more positive.  One day they accept it is 'their lot in life'.  They are useless.   I know how I'd feel if every time I went to stand up I fell down again yet knew I was responsible for standing and falling.  Who would I blame if no-one had caused me to fall down?   I know this is very simplistic but this is how survivors explain their experiences and realisation of lack of 'take for granted) strategies.   For a survivor to empower themselves with learning past 'exisiting' in life to 'living' in life is a harder process than the 'stable person'.

Mind you, the 'stable person' may not realise that they too are simply existing life.  I believe that all people that take a 'sea change' during their life have realized they were existing and not living. 

Further the fact that many come into Lifestyle during their 30/40/50's is also testament to this 'living' past 'existing'.

You are fortunate that you appear to have bypassed the traumas that leave many bereft of life strategies/skills.


Warm regards to all. Driver




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RE: Admiration for the Survivor - 9/13/2007 4:55:46 AM   
Dnomyar


Posts: 7933
Joined: 6/27/2005
Status: offline 		I have to admit that IM lost in all of this.

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RE: Admiration for the Survivor - 9/13/2007 5:24:14 AM   
Grlwithboy


Posts: 655
Joined: 2/8/2005
Status: offline 		I'm with LA on this. I have admiration for people who have come out the other end of some horrible things, but I have a lack of ease with the suffering fetish of the contemporary world. Look at memoir - if it doesn't have trauma it doesn't get published - serious and shocking levels of trauma. Even if, in the case of someone like James Frey, it's fabricated, it's trauma that we drool over. I'm not comfortable with that. I think survivial is admirable, but that my "wow, you're a really strong person" is trivial and inadequate in the face of it. There are people whose lives are so unmarred by trauma that they'd never be the right partner for me and there are people whose lives are so marked by trauma that they'll never be the right partner for me either, our world views are just going to be so radically different.



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RE: Admiration for the Survivor - 9/13/2007 7:57:09 AM   
cloudboy


Posts: 7306
Joined: 12/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Grlwithboy

Look at memoir -


Arguably, the last two memoirs I read were about "trauma,"

Girl without a Face and Falling Through the Earth.

I don't know that their publication is a fascination for trauma, as much as it is an exploration of the human experience for particular individuals.

Maybe what you find lacking in the publishing world or what you think readers should better appreciate is the drama and action in smaller things which are less sensational --- but are nonetheless very affecting.

Its probably wise to steer clear of people who gravitate towards trauma or "situations." On the other hand, there is much to be gained from engaging with anyone who has overcome or is dealing with steep personal and situtational challenges.

< Message edited by cloudboy -- 9/13/2007 7:59:22 AM >

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RE: Admiration for the Survivor - 9/13/2007 8:58:48 AM   
SusanofO


Posts: 5672
Joined: 12/19/2005
Status: offline 		I think everyone experiences some form of trauma in their lives; I'd be hard-pressed to think of anyone who has managed to escape it completely. What people consider of that to be relevant to their own life is personally detemined, and something else entirely, IMO. 

- Susan

_____________________________

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That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

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RE: Admiration for the Survivor - 9/13/2007 9:30:01 AM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline 		I am going to try and pull together my feelings on this with some semblance of making sense......otherwise I will just cancel it......and you will never know I tried posting it!

I have admiration for strong people. People that do their best to make good choices and take responsibility for their bad choices. For people that learn from the negative life stuff rather than use it as an excuse for their problems and failures. For people that are always trying to better themself, learn more, keep an open mind and heart. For people that accept that their choices are not for everyone and do their best to avoid criticising others. For people that understand we are not all supposed to have the same life path, it's okay to be different.

That being said. Some of those people are survivors of terrible life events, some things so terrible I simply cannot imagine surviving them with such grace and strength. I don't think I could have. While some of those people I also admire have suffered very little in comparison, and yet have still managed to learn much of the same lessons and share many of the same qualities.

And then........there are survivors who constantly dwell on their horrors and use them as excuses. These people I cannot admire. Feel empathy for, maybe, but not always admiration. The act of surviving does not make a person admirable in my eyes. It is what they do with it, how they express their survival, what they take from it, how they came out the other side, that I look at.

Sometimes, the survivor is more appealing to me, yes. The survival often creates a strength and awareness that is not often found. I also find that when someone that has suffered so much, survived, and does not trust easily.....opens herself to me..... Oh what a turn on that is for me. It feels even more special.

Celeste, with her post, touched my heart a great deal. It helped me to understand a few people in my life. It also caused me to admire her a great deal more than I already did.

< Message edited by LaTigresse -- 9/13/2007 9:31:45 AM >

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

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RE: Admiration for the Survivor - 9/13/2007 9:54:13 AM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse
And then........there are survivors who constantly dwell on their horrors and use them as excuses. These people I cannot admire. Feel empathy for, maybe, but not always admiration. The act of surviving does not make a person admirable in my eyes. It is what they do with it, how they express their survival, what they take from it, how they came out the other side, that I look at.


Those people are not survivors. They are the walking wounded. They may indeed think they are survivors, but in my opinion, it takes more than a beating heart to own that label. While their hearts may indeed still beat (physical survival) their heads have not yet managed to come out of victim mode....and some never will, despite their claims to the contrary.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

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RE: Admiration for the Survivor - 9/13/2007 10:52:00 AM   
taintedgypsy


Posts: 228
Joined: 2/10/2007
Status: offline 		In a way I agree with LA and the others, Mr. and Mrs. Smith who got married, bought a house, raised thier children and enjoyed their retirement finally joining that caravan club they have always dreamed of ... worked hard all their life and tried hard to do the right thing. All my life I have felt like the street urchant in rags standing in the snow looking through the window trying to understand how they got there, imaging what it must be like to sit round the fire in the happy laughing family mode. I admired the strength of character it must have taken to stick it out, to walk the straight road and resist the temptation to run wild.

My life was the stuff of their worse nightmares and their lives were as real to me as what I watched on TV, so alien that I could not even consider the how what or when of it all. It was simply beyond my undersanding ... yet I admired them and still do, I do not beleive it is an easy road to walk.

I also agree with Driver, I spent most of my life surviving and as an adult the fact that I existed, that I got up in the morning, that I worked, that I raised a child that would never know anything close to what I knew ... made me a survivor. I broke the cycle, I was alive ... it was enough. Then one day I found it was not enough, it was not enough to survive, it was not enough to exist, I wanted more ... I wanted a life ... I wanted some of what I saw on the other side of that window.

If you had asked me 20 yrs ago, 10 yrs ago, 5 yrs ago or even 12 months ago; I would have told you that it would have been better if I had never been born. The old way was that children simply did not survive abuse, society believed that such children could never be right after such a thing ... they were tainted ... I beleived they were right. I can honestly say that this is the first time in my life that I have been glad to be alive, happy and looking forward to the future. I beleive I am finally the survivor that lives not just exists.

As for the thought of pushing the buttons of a sadist .... I am unsure that it would be a wise thing to do. I am strong, unbeleivably strong, I have worked through and lived through hell. Pain was a part of my family, it was my stalker, it was my friend, it was my constant companion as a child. I can breathe through it, count through it, even shut down and accept it on a level where it just becomes part of me not really even felt ... just accepted ... it is almost like a negative sub-space ... floaty and dark like an abiss. I can make this statement because I actually got to that shut down point in play when I first started testing the limits of my tollerance for pain. I experienced it for the first time in decades and was shocked by the similarities to sub-space. It deeply concerned me because I learnt in my early 20s that a bainshee lives in that abiss ... when backed into a corner, with no way out, when the pain becomes something I can no longer hold on too ... it is like a cornered wounded animal ... it is a rage red and blind that fights with fists and feels nothing but lava running through her veins, it took years to control it and I fear it ... Durring those years I would not allow myself to loose my temper to the stage where it might get free ... I would walk , run, beg, warn ... do anything but let myself reach that point of no return.  I have not seen the bainshee in over 2 decades, I do not know if she even still lives but I feel she does and I never want her released.

Yet I have found that pain by choice is different. Pain play is exciting, deeply sexual and I crave it. I enjoy the physical challlenge of pitting myself against it ... pushing to see just how far I can go? I liken the feeling to an adrenalin junkie, always looking for a bigger mountain to climb, to run a faster time, to drive a faster car, to surf a bigger wave. The anticipation of the clamp, the feel of the application, the stand off with time and pain, the payoff of the rush when it is removed ... hmmm. Am I masocistic? ... I do not know ... Is it just a phase, a new toy that the novelty will where off? ... again I do not know. How far can I push this? Is it wise to go there? It frightens me and excites me, it draws me like a moth to the flame, but will it destroy me if I get to close? ... again I do not know. At this stage I do not want to know, I will stay satisfied with the light stuff and enjoy it. Iwill leave these other questions for the future, perhaps time will give me the answers?

However it does worry me a little that some really nice looking Dominant Lord type could find his buttons pushed and lure me over to the dark side to find out the anwsers some day lol.

Just a few thoughts for those sadistic types to think about when they admire the strengths that they perceive with survivors.... "and can't help imagine a thing or two."




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Equal Opportunity Slut (Yeah ... best of both worlds lol)

warm smiles to all

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RE: Admiration for the Survivor - 9/13/2007 11:29:48 AM   
iammachine


Posts: 1549
Joined: 1/25/2006
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quote:

So.. what do Survivors do for you?


Respect. Nothing more, nothing less.

Being as I am someone that could be considered a "survivor", I personally feel a bit awkward if people make a fuss over it. With too much attention it's almost as if it becomes a glamorous thing, and it's not at all. It just is what it is, experiences and the act of having dealt (and dealing with) them. Noteworthy, maybe, but nothing that I, personally, like to make a stink about.

So quiet acknowledgement and respect is my modus operandi.

YMMV


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RE: Admiration for the Survivor - 9/13/2007 11:38:54 AM   
akisha


Posts: 2071
Joined: 6/25/2005
Status: offline 		I hold a deep respect for those that can overcome something hard or terrible in thier lives with out blaming others, using others, and learning from it and becoming better people in the long run.

Even if the adversary came from a mistake they made themselves, if they own up to it, and work hard to overcome it. I see that as admirable.

Only thing I can't stand are people that always blame evryone else for things that go wrong and whine and complain and want other people to fix their lives for them.

Not everyone succeeds in life, but if you are atleast willing to try and do your best, then you are a success.

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RE: Admiration for the Survivor - 9/13/2007 11:41:31 AM   
chellekitty


Posts: 3923
Joined: 3/27/2005
Status: offline 		one of the negative things when talking about survivors is that for those that are the "walking wounded"...still in need of deep healing...all to often compare trauma to trauma and i have this to offer from my process of healing, that i am still definately not done doing...
my trauma is no better and no worse than your trauma...the physical severity of one trauma does not make another trauma any less traumatic...stop focusing on what makes you different and find out what makes you the same and learn from the people that are recovering from traumatic events...each and everyone of them has something to teach you...

chelle


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RE: Admiration for the Survivor - 9/13/2007 11:54:47 AM   
DiurnalVampire


Posts: 8125
Joined: 1/19/2006
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline 		I am with iammachine
I am a survivor. My ordeal was forced on me, a one time thing.  I dont like the idea of people making a fuss about it, beacsue it is over and done with.  Without it, I would not be who I am today. I cant say who I might have been, but I know things would have been different.

There is a vast difference between living your life afterwards, and simply existing.  Some people cannot move on, and I know a lot of them like that. After what I went through, I developed a White Knight syndrome. I know I had no one ot turn to when I needed someone, and I try and save as many as I can who need it. When you make it through something and have no one to help you reconstruct, it becomes far harder. There are some who can never qite build themselves back up. There are some who dont want to forget, and others that dont want to remember. 

Depending on the situation, I respect most survivors. I say most, because when someone survives a situaton they knowingly placed themselves in, I find it a little less poignant than when they are helplessly thrust into the midst of a disaster and pul themselves back out. This is just MY OPINION (before the flames start) slanted greatly by situations I have been part of. Someone who realizes early on that the man or woman they are with is abusive and makes a decision to try and stick it out puts themselves in the position to become a victim and thereby become a survivor. They would not have been victimized had they made better decisions early on. Some of us dont have that option, or the decisions we made were the ones in the best judgement and the outcomes were unforseen. Personally, I interrupted an attempted rape. Id never change that decision. I could never have guessed that doing that would have made me the substitute target. Looking back, I still would have made the same decision...

Enough of my rambling.
I respect survivors, even those with the victim coplexes. AS long as they dont try and turn their ordeal into a daily pity party and bid for attenton at every turn. Once a horrible thing is made into an attention getting device, I no longer respect the survivor. Your goal is to get over something and move on, rebuild yourself and make it go away, not see how many peple can pity you and how you ca use whatever unfortunately happened to you to your best advantage.  That I cannot respect.

My opinion and mine alone.
DV


_____________________________

I will be your Dominate if you will be my submit - Fox

Snarko Ergo Sum
If you cannot change your mind, how are you so sure you still have one? -proverb

*Owner of Fox - collared 10/13/07*
VampiresLair

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RE: Admiration for the Survivor - 9/13/2007 12:18:23 PM   
Tigrita


Posts: 484
Joined: 8/16/2007
From: California
Status: offline 		Some have commented that it is harder to admire someone who lets themselves get into those emotionally (combined with physically) destructive situations to begin with, but I don't feel this way.  I haven't been through anything as traumatic as Celeste, but I do know what it feels like to feel small, helpless, and insignificant (not in the fun ways), a cycle that builds on its self like a whirlpool, dragging you down with no concept at all of light or air or escape.  To reach a turning point and stop that cycle, and power up to the light, is an incredible strength I deeply admire in people.  The depth and lenght of time one was burried does not reflect on their character to me, but the deeper one was burried, the harder the fight to the surface, and that certainly makes a difference.  People who have done this are in my experience invariably strong people I respect and am likely to connect deeply with.  A lot of this has to do with empathy I think.  Those kinds of survivors see things and people more deeply and connect with people more deeply than the average Joe, and that is something I'm drawn to. 

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RE: Admiration for the Survivor - 9/13/2007 12:59:39 PM   
toservez


Posts: 1733
Joined: 9/7/2006
From: All over now in Minnesota
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: akisha

I hold a deep respect for those that can overcome something hard or terrible in thier lives with out blaming others, using others, and learning from it and becoming better people in the long run.

Even if the adversary came from a mistake they made themselves, if they own up to it, and work hard to overcome it. I see that as admirable.

Only thing I can't stand are people that always blame evryone else for things that go wrong and whine and complain and want other people to fix their lives for them.

Not everyone succeeds in life, but if you are atleast willing to try and do your best, then you are a success.


I agree with what most everyone has said and this particular response in specific.

I think there is a bit of squeaky wheel gets the grease in regards to the positive attention someone gets from overcoming adversity toward people who at least avoid adversity in the self created/personality driven type.

I though certainly see when someone can overcome adversity that is truly unavoidable that people can hold them to a higher level of admiration as to me that is human behavior 101. We as human beings simply admire people who can do good things that we are not sure we can or we know we cannot do. Look how people admire people who volunteer for military, fireman and policemen for example. It can be like these people have proven themselves at a higher level then most of us.

I also think though admiration for a survivor is often just a quick disposable emotion. I work where I occasionally see an abuse victim finally stand up for themselves and I do admire them in the moment but at the same time I know or at least I think I know that I could never truly be in their situation. So it is admiration without a positive all inducing judgment attached but just one of living in that moment.



_____________________________

I am sorry I do not fit Webster's defintion of a slave but thankfully my Master is not Webster.

"Anything that contradicts experience and logic should be abandoned." - H.H. The 14th Dalai Lama

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