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RE: If is isn't about Acts, what is it about? - 7/17/2005 9:59:13 AM

darkinshadows

Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline

Wow Gemeni - IMO your response about 'faith' or 'religion' or however you want to describe it is way off target and completely sweeping.

Seeing as you aren't religious - not sure how you can make suggestions on everyones faith in that.

Seeing as you are a male dominant, not sure how you can speak for female submissives(i realise about the male submissive side - but not certain) about how their faith works either.

So as a female submissive personality, I will share -

For one thing - your reality, isn't the same for everyone else.

And then, theres the faith issue. Faith in whatever - doesn't mean that faith is taken blindly - for some, maybe, but not for all. Its not all about conditioning, or being processed - for some people it's a concious search for knowledge, enlightenment and discovery. Not in the unknown - but in the future that will happen.

It's not about 'submissive insecurities' - its about submissive strength. I know I have the ability to be more than I am - if not - then what would the point be? Just because I might look to others for guidence or have faith in someone elses knowledge, doesn't make me weak and needy.

A wise person, isnt the one with the knowledge. A wise person is the one willing and open to listen and hear what people have to say, even if they don't always understand. To take in - breath and soak up that knowledge and then realise ones own potential through the experience.

So faith - is loving oneself in essence - trusting and having faith in yourself FIRST - everything else just flows after that.

Peace and Love

*P.S and personally, I think Faramir isn't as condescending as you seem to think. He's honest. Maybe straight talking - and He and I don't often agree - but at least one knows where one stands when listening to his knowledge. I am not saying you are wrong - just offering and placing over another point of view.

< Message edited by dark~angel -- 7/17/2005 10:02:20 AM >

_____________________________

.dark.

...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to Gemeni)

Post #: 41

RE: If is isn't about Acts, what is it about? - 7/17/2005 10:13:38 AM

perverseangelic

Posts: 2625
Joined: 2/2/2004
From: Davis, Ca
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: njwinesir

acts can be submissive or not. a sub that hangs up the phone or refuses to talk,, this is not a submmisive act.

alot of acts are in fact controlling, either for good or bad

It can be a submissive act if one's owner has told one to hang up the phone and refuse to talk.

The point is that the act ITSELF doesn't fall into a category. The way/reason it's performed does.

_____________________________

~in the begining it is always dark~

(in reply to njwinesir)

Post #: 42

RE: If is isn't about Acts, what is it about? - 7/17/2005 10:16:12 AM

Gemeni

Posts: 255
Joined: 2/19/2005
Status: offline

And yet,I see this leading to a lot of train wrecks angel.

Firstly a Dominant needs to have his own power. Not doing so makes him a sham.

Same with a sub. The fallacy that being *incomplete* without another to lean on is an excuse for codependency. Believe me,I have done this for long enough to see some seriously weak,sick people feeding each other's mental illnesses.

I'm quite aware that my reality is not the same as others. After a decade doing this,I'm quite pragmatic. The castle realm rose colored glasses were stolen by a lot of craziness that went on. I'm quite brutal in expressing a lot that I see-and it's not pretty.

And if you look closer (like,pay attention?) I was responding to Noah.

Faramir is very intelligent,but it is often lost in his arrogant expression of that.

We all have our crosses to bear.

(in reply to darkinshadows)

Post #: 43

RE: If is isn't about Acts, what is it about? - 7/17/2005 10:25:44 AM

ShiftedJewel

Posts: 2492
Joined: 12/2/2004
Status: offline

quote:

The problem with this kind of analysis is that it means absolutely nothing to people who aren't Christian.

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

The problem with this kind of analysis is that it means absolutely nothing to people who aren't Christian.

Yes thats people like me.

Perhaps these are the type of things Scooter was refering too?

quote:

That's the knee-jerk part - the OP was in no way religious, had no religious content - it was about D/s, articualting D/s via analogy. The analogy source was a religious one, but it could have been political, economic, philosophical, artisitc - anything.

If the OP had used a political analogy and you had bitched about people always dragging politics in I would have thougt, "Wow, what a pathetic, knee-jerk reaction."

If the OP had used an economic analogy and you had bitched about people always dragging economics in I would have thougt, "Wow, what a pathetic, knee-jerk reaction."

If the OP had used an analogy from philosophy and you had bitched about people always dragging philosophy in I would have thougt, "Wow, what a pathetic, knee-jerk reaction."

If the OP had used an analogy from the natural sciences and you had bitched about people always dragging "science" in I would have thougt, "Wow, what a pathetic, knee-jerk reaction."

If the OP had used a political analogy to try to make a point and the thread grabbed that analogy and ran with it rather then expanding on the point it was trying to make it would be the same end result and far from a "knee jerk reaction". The point here it that too many see an analogy and react to it rather then the original question at hand... which I believe is what you did... you dismissed the foundation of his post and chose instead to wander way off the original topic.... the exact point he was trying to make.

Jewel

_____________________________

Don't ask, trust me, you won't like the answer... no one ever does.

(in reply to Faramir)

Post #: 44

RE: If is isn't about Acts, what is it about? - 7/17/2005 10:40:11 AM

Lordandmaster

Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
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Funny how everyone who disagrees with you is always just "bitching," Faramir. Talk about pathetic.

Using a religious analogy to explain d/s is not meaningful to anyone who doesn't find the religious analogy meaningful. That's all there is to it. And that's what I was saying before: Christians cannot seem to imagine human beings who are not edified by faith discourse. If the OP wants to talk about Buddhism, I'm there. If the OP wants to talk about Christianity, ordinarily I'd be there too, but lately I've gotten tired of it. But if the OP wants to talk about d/s using metaphors that don't mean anything to someone who isn't Christian, and then get defensive because people don't identify with what he's talking about, there's not going to be much of a discussion.

Lam

quote:

ORIGINAL: Faramir

That's the knee-jerk part - the OP was in no way religious, had no religious content - it was about D/s, articualting D/s via analogy. The analogy source was a religious one, but it could have been political, economic, philosophical, artisitc - anything.

If the OP had used a political analogy and you had bitched about people always dragging politics in I would have thougt, "Wow, what a pathetic, knee-jerk reaction."

If the OP had used an economic analogy and you had bitched about people always dragging economics in I would have thougt, "Wow, what a pathetic, knee-jerk reaction."

If the OP had used an analogy from philosophy and you had bitched about people always dragging philosophy in I would have thougt, "Wow, what a pathetic, knee-jerk reaction."

If the OP had used an analogy from the natural sciences and you had bitched about people always dragging "science" in I would have thougt, "Wow, what a pathetic, knee-jerk reaction."

If any given subject matter: religion, natural sciences, ethics, politics, etc, inspires you to reach down, grab your panties and yank them up until you squeel - you're having a knee-jerk reaction.

Hope that helps, Mr. Trash.

(in reply to Faramir)

Post #: 45

RE: If is isn't about Acts, what is it about? - 7/17/2005 10:46:26 AM

darkinshadows

Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline

quote:

And yet,I see this leading to a lot of train wrecks angel.

Howso?

quote:

Firstly a Dominant needs to have his own power. Not doing so makes him a sham.

And submissive types are powerless and have no need for their own power? Whats all this about? Everyone should contain and understand their own power - I don't think it makes a person a sham not to understand it - just not enlightened. A submissive or slave who views themself as powerless would be up for all manner of abuse.

quote:

Same with a sub. The fallacy that being *incomplete* without another to lean on is an excuse for codependency. Believe me,I have done this for long enough to see some seriously weak,sick people feeding each other's mental illnesses.

And who said all subs believe in the *incomplete* analagy? I know plenty of Dominant personalities who subscribe to it. But not all. Again - total sweeping generalisation. You don't have to have been 'doing this long enough' to know that there are sharks and there are leaches - it happens in all walks of life - be is BDSM / religious / everyday 'nilla(hate that word - disclaimer here) life.

quote:

I'm quite aware that my reality is not the same as others.

Then why are you generalising so sweepingly?

quote:

After a decade doing this,I'm quite pragmatic. The castle realm rose colored glasses were stolen by a lot of craziness that went on. I'm quite brutal in expressing a lot that I see-and it's not pretty.

Not really understanding your point here - rose coloured glasses are in all gardens - not just the castlerose one. As for the brutal - just don't get your point, sorry. Time is inconsequential. I have been 'doing this' for over 15 - but I equally know people with a greater grip on 'this' after only a few years. Time doesn't make the man or the woman -

quote:

And if you look closer (like,pay attention?) I was responding to Noah.

Goodness, and you say Faramir is condecending? You posted in an open forum - expect response from anyone who might wish to respond, especially to such sweeping statements on people you really can't understand unless you experience it yourself - THATS rose coloured glasses - or a glass house depending on what side of the glass your standing. You can try to make a judgement by vicariously living through anothers life, but you can't claim to 'know' it unless you are prepared to take a step closer and not just judge, but experience.

quote:

Faramir is very intelligent,but it is often lost in his arrogant expression of that.

Where you may see arrogance, another may see pure faith in his own ability.(Sorry Faramir - I know this seems rude talking about you like this - and I am not defending you because you don't need defending - simply putting over my perception because perceptions of people are different for each person - ie each reality is different)

quote:

We all have our crosses to bear.

Nope, we don't. Why? Because to bear the cross is to carry it like a tool - and I would rather use the tool and move on.

_____________________________

.dark.

...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to Gemeni)

Post #: 46

RE: If is isn't about Acts, what is it about? - 7/17/2005 10:49:42 AM

Gemeni

Posts: 255
Joined: 2/19/2005
Status: offline

I know what you mean LAM.

People who attempt to force others into thier views of reality are very boring.

Especially when those alleged "realities" cannot be proven except with truly circular logic.

Faith justifying faith? It's like watching a dog chasing it's tail. If one wishes to discuss,drop the religion. It only makes sense to those who adhere to it.

To everyone else it is a meaningless fantasy.

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

Post #: 47

RE: If is isn't about Acts, what is it about? - 7/17/2005 10:55:21 AM

lonewolf05

Posts: 830
Joined: 6/21/2005
Status: offline

quote:

It scares me to think how inflexible and limited some of you are intellectualy - I can't imagine living in a tiny, narrow world without the ability to have nuanced, open-ended thinking.

=========
being raised a simple man with simple wants in life, "I" have no desires to be some high toned book worm college boy. i like my life without all the foo-for-all and i guess if you don't live in MY world you wouldn't understand. i never spent that much time in some library somewhere. i spent most of my life runnin the streets.
so i guess i must be one scary dude to you huh? EVERYTHING in life has a limit. i like my narrow tiny world. it is free of silly books that mean nothing to me, surviving on the street as a kid.

BOO! a narrow world peeking out at you.

try to have a nice day, huh?

wolf

(in reply to Faramir)

Post #: 48

RE: If is isn't about Acts, what is it about? - 7/17/2005 10:57:31 AM

Gemeni

Posts: 255
Joined: 2/19/2005
Status: offline

I'm not going to indulge in an ongoing debate over differences of opinion angel.

And you wern't paying attention,or Farmir would not have been brought into this discussion. So don't call me "condescending" for pointing out YOUR error. Learn from it and move on,rather than be defensive about it.

I'm very discriminating in my choices of partners-and nutcases are not people I choose to let get close to me. And quite a few of the train wrecks I spoke of have been one *I* allowed to happen-by not being very choosy.

Actually, most of the points that I made agree with what you said. Why must you always defend your own conceptualizations,rather than try to see validity in those of others?

I can see many dynamics that may be valid-for others. They simply aren't ones I would choose for ME.

(in reply to darkinshadows)

Post #: 49

RE: If is isn't about Acts, what is it about? - 7/17/2005 10:58:12 AM

darkinshadows

Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline

quote:

Faith justifying faith? It's like watching a dog chasing it's tail. If one wishes to discuss,drop the religion. It only makes sense to those who adhere to it.

To everyone else it is a meaningless fantasy.

I truely don't see how the OP was centred on religion.

So the op used His religion as an example. I think the disclaimers that were all over the OP was pretty much showing that the question wasn't about religions - it was about

quote:

Is Faith--or something closely related--a candidate, by analogy, for what dominance and submission *are* about--in the very sense that they are not about Acts?

Just because you are unwilling to look past your 'faith' - you are assuming the op is based in religion.
Doesn't matter if the OP used politics or science or what - faith just exists - with or without religion.

If you believe that faith is purely a religious tool, then your the one who is the dog.

Peace and Love

_____________________________

.dark.

...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to Gemeni)

Post #: 50

RE: If is isn't about Acts, what is it about? - 7/17/2005 11:03:39 AM

Gemeni

Posts: 255
Joined: 2/19/2005
Status: offline

I tire of this.

Expect to be ignored by me in the future. Quoting me will be a waste of time.

I suggest you get used to no replies.

(in reply to darkinshadows)

Post #: 51

RE: If is isn't about Acts, what is it about? - 7/17/2005 11:04:45 AM

mistoferin

Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline

Back to the OP's original question...

quote:

"Mastery and submission aren't about ACTs. Any act can be submissive or dominant.

quote:

So Emeraldslave2 picked up on someone else'e perceived focus on Acts, as such. Is Faith--or something closely related--a candidate, by analogy, for what dominance and submission *are* about--in the very sense that they are not about Acts?

I think that Emerald has a very valid point. mastery and submission are not about acts, although I don't necessarily agree that any act can be either dominant or submissive. The act of surrender ( the surrender of one's will to another, whether that be physically or mentally) for example, I see as a purely submissive act. I see Mastery and submission as more of a cumulative process. Each and every act taken singly can be viewed seperately as being dominant or submissive. When you view them cumulatively as a whole that is when the picture of mastery or submission begins to form.

I also think that there are times when an act can be both dominant and submissive. For instance, if I am given an order to do something that I really do not wish to do and I do it, that act is then submissive, at least in the eyes of the Dominant. But internally, I have had to overcome my wish to not comply....essentially I have had to Dom myself into submission. So therefore, that same act that is viewed as submissive by the Dominant can have a component of dominance on the part of the submissive, at least on an internal level.

So what is it all about? I think that it is about our core motivators, whether they be natural or chosen. It is about who we are at that deeper internal level that makes us Masters or submissives....the acts are merely a physical means of demonstrating our orientation.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to Noah)

Post #: 52

RE: If is isn't about Acts, what is it about? - 7/17/2005 11:10:56 AM

darkinshadows

Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline

quote:

And you wern't paying attention,or Farmir would not have been brought into this discussion. So don't call me "condescending" for pointing out YOUR error. Learn from it and move on,rather than be defensive about it.

I re read your post - but it tells me you were responding to faramirs thread - (bottom right corner) and nothing points to it to be otherwise. Yet Demon tells me on his laptop it says to Him its to Noah - so no idea what is happening there. So if I made an error I apologise. However, communication and faith in someones ability and ones own ability is important. Kind of answers the OP...

Peace and Love

_____________________________

.dark.

...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to Gemeni)

Post #: 53

RE: If is isn't about Acts, what is it about? - 7/17/2005 11:14:36 AM

Faramir

Posts: 1043
Joined: 2/12/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ShiftedJewel

If the OP had used a political analogy to try to make a point and the thread grabbed that analogy and ran with it rather then expanding on the point it was trying to make it would be the same end result
Jewel

So we should reduce our discourse to bland pablum to keep morons from getting upset?

OMFG that's painfully stupid - please refrain from posting anymore.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ShiftedJewel
which I believe is what you did... you dismissed the foundation of his post and chose instead to wander way off the original topic.... the exact point he was trying to make.

Jewel

Actually no - I introduced the Buberian articulation of I to Thou relationships - absolutely on topic, and exactly what the OP was asking for (hence his comment, "Faramir, thanks for introducing...") For me, relationships include a religious one - but that was an example. It doesn't have to apply to you. Please unwad panties.

Please learn to read, use critical thinking skills, and then come back and try posting again. At this point you are merely enganing in solo humilaition play.

(in reply to ShiftedJewel)

Post #: 54

RE: If is isn't about Acts, what is it about? - 7/17/2005 11:16:30 AM

Faramir

Posts: 1043
Joined: 2/12/2005
Status: offline

Post edited to remove flames.

Personal insults go against the Collarme Terms of Service.

Thank you for your cooperation.

Mod7

< Message edited by ModeratorSeven -- 7/17/2005 7:44:38 PM >

(in reply to Gemeni)

Post #: 55

RE: If is isn't about Acts, what is it about? - 7/17/2005 11:23:19 AM

ShiftedJewel

Posts: 2492
Joined: 12/2/2004
Status: offline

quote:

enganing in solo humilaition play.

That would be engaging and humiliation....... Please, dictionaries are cheap... online dictionaries are free.

Jewel

edited to add.... if you are going to try to insult me, please do it intelligently.

< Message edited by ShiftedJewel -- 7/17/2005 11:25:02 AM >

_____________________________

Don't ask, trust me, you won't like the answer... no one ever does.

(in reply to Faramir)

Post #: 56

RE: If is isn't about Acts, what is it about? - 7/17/2005 11:23:57 AM

mistoferin

Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline

quote:

AND WTF is up with your head in that picture? Did you photoshop it or something?

Was this really necessary? It seems to me that you are engaging in a bit of solo humiliation play of your own. When one sinks to such a level it discounts the poster to the same level of their rather distasteful post. Two posts back to back that had absolutely no value. Really now, are your coping skills that limited? You really should be ashamed.

< Message edited by mistoferin -- 7/17/2005 11:25:56 AM >

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to Faramir)

Post #: 57

RE: If is isn't about Acts, what is it about? - 7/17/2005 11:24:55 AM

quietkitten

Posts: 1082
Joined: 2/5/2005
From: Alberta, Canada
Status: offline

It is amazing how quickly an intelligent conversation can descend into flaming and personal insults.
If it make everyone this angry, perhaps they should stick to the "association game" thread..

(in reply to Faramir)

Post #: 58

RE: If is isn't about Acts, what is it about? - 7/17/2005 11:29:52 AM

darkinshadows

Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline

quote:

So what is it all about? I think that it is about our core motivators, whether they be natural or chosen. It is about who we are at that deeper internal level that makes us Masters or submissives....the acts are merely a physical means of demonstrating our orientation.

Hi Erin -

'Core Motivators'? Do you think you could expand on that(sorry, having a blonde moment trying to comprehend the meaning) I love the 'acts are physical....' quote...

Peace and Love

_____________________________

.dark.

...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to mistoferin)

Post #: 59

RE: If is isn't about Acts, what is it about? - 7/17/2005 11:45:58 AM

domtimothy46176

Posts: 670
Joined: 12/25/2004
From: Dayton, Ohio area
Status: offline

I think erin was referring to those basic needs that are at the root of our predilections to explore either dominance or submission or both. For instance, some of my core motivators are, in no particular order, a need to create order from chaos, a need to be in control of my environment, a need to have the ability to control my intimate relaionships rather than be in a more reactive position, a need to fulfill my nurturing instincts and a need to insulate myself from emotional vulnerability. My dominance is rooted in the pursuit of fulfilling those basic needs, as I have come to understand and identify them. So I see them as my core motivators for my behaviors.
Timothy

(in reply to darkinshadows)

Post #: 60

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