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5 Myths About Terrorism - 9/14/2007 12:32:21 PM   
SugarMyChurro


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5 Myths About Terrorism
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/09/11/AR2007091101220.html?referrer=digg

If terrorism didn't work, it would be far more rare than it now is. Sometimes terrorists do achieve their goals, which is why others continue to try the tactic.

-----

And if 9/11 had not become the crisis that justified the many government misdeeds that came after it, the government would have had to create one.
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RE: 5 Myths About Terrorism - 9/14/2007 12:56:04 PM   
pahunkboy


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interesting

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RE: 5 Myths About Terrorism - 9/14/2007 4:40:31 PM   
FullCircle


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Terrorism doesn’t work terrorists just think it’s the alternative to democracy. Also the terrorists’ vote seems to count more if they give their life to make it. These days democracy is all for show; it gives people the world over a belief that they have some say in their society. It keeps them happy and keeps them all working to make their nation great. When fighting with a faceless government full of people getting rich off of hard working citizens it’s not hard to see why people scream to be heard in other ways, when their needs or beliefs are ignored by those that only care about ratings. They call this direct action. I’m not exactly happy with direct action but I’m no longer satisfied with crossing a box every four years for show either.

5 Myths about democracy:


  1. Your vote counts: If your vote counted why do they need to count all the other votes? The truth of the situation is only a few marginal seats change at elections. So the politicians only campaign and set the law making agenda with those seats in mind.

  2. You can vote out people if you don’t like them. (See Myth 1 above)

  3. Democracy tends to create liberal societies where the government respects minority views: I don’t think this model applies to the UK anymore sadly. If the UK was further east we’d have called it a police state long ago.

  4. It’s your duty to vote: Although it’s true that hard line crazies always turn up to vote is that really the only reason to vote as a liberal minded individual? How will people see the system is broken if we all keep voting whilst ignoring the deep seated belief that the vote counts for nothing?

  5. Someone has to hold the power and national responsibility: Politicians are lead by advisers so why not just cut out the middle man.


There must be some alternative out there that considers minority and majority concerns. I just don’t know what it is.

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RE: 5 Myths About Terrorism - 9/14/2007 5:11:30 PM   
thompsonx


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King George called Washington,Adams,Jefferson and the rest terrorists.
thompson

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RE: 5 Myths About Terrorism - 9/14/2007 6:42:56 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle
There must be some alternative out there that considers minority and majority concerns. I just don’t know what it is.


yup its called a "republic"!


Democracy 2 wolves and a sheep deciding what's for supper.

Republic:  2 wolves deciding whats for supper and a well armed sheep contesting the vote.



_____________________________

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Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

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RE: 5 Myths About Terrorism - 9/14/2007 8:43:27 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle
There must be some alternative out there that considers minority and majority concerns. I just don’t know what it is.


yup its called a "republic"!


Democracy 2 wolves and a sheep deciding what's for supper.

Republic:  2 wolves deciding whats for supper and a well armed sheep contesting the vote.



Real0ne:
That may look cute on a bumper sticker but it is less than accurate.  Perhaps you might want to read Hamilton's definition in the "Federalist Papers".  Where he compares and contrasts the two words.  He spends a fair amount of ink explaining why one is more useful (at the time) than the other.
Now I know you do not particularly like Hamilton but that does not detract from his knowledge and understanding of government.
thompson
 

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RE: 5 Myths About Terrorism - 9/14/2007 10:40:13 PM   
farglebargle


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quote:

Terrorism doesn’t work terrorists just think it’s the alternative to democracy.


1) Bin Ladin demanded Bush remove troops from his homeland, Saudi Arabia.

2) 9/11

3) Bush removes troops from Bin Ladin's homeland, Saudi Arabia.


Looks to me that, when confronting a coward like Bush, terrorism is very effective.



_____________________________

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RE: 5 Myths About Terrorism - 9/15/2007 1:06:18 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle
There must be some alternative out there that considers minority and majority concerns. I just don’t know what it is.


yup its called a "republic"!


Democracy 2 wolves and a sheep deciding what's for supper.

Republic:  2 wolves deciding whats for supper and a well armed sheep contesting the vote.




Realone, you might try at looking at European democracies where the sheep are doing decidedly better than the sheep in the American Republic.

Of course, France, Germany and Italy have republics but a republic is only a system of democracy and is not an alternative to democracy. Democracies are only as good as the people in power and who put the wolves in power if it isn't the sheep?

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RE: 5 Myths About Terrorism - 9/15/2007 1:38:22 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro

5 Myths About Terrorism
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/09/11/AR2007091101220.html?referrer=digg

If terrorism didn't work, it would be far more rare than it now is. Sometimes terrorists do achieve their goals, which is why others continue to try the tactic.



Terrorism will work if the idea is a potent one, largely because the leaders of terrorist organisations can rely on a bottomless pit of recruits, and they'll keep going until they achieve their aims. To illustrate:

a) The IRA: they had more than enough willing recruits, and the funding from external sources, because the idea was so potent; those looking for their cause in life could tap into this idea.

b) The French Resistance: same as above, I think it was Jean-Paul Sartre who said "we were never as free as we were under the German occupation", and what he meant was that they found their cause in life, an idea which could provide a shared consciousness like no other movement, a cause which effectively removed accepted behaviour/norms and allowed people to strive for the basic human need of freedom: mundane, day-to-day life was replaced by a struggle far beyond the meaning of individual existence.

Freedom (whatever your definition may be) is such an attractive concept; for as long as prominents in the Middle East and South East Asia can point to Western intrusion on their freedom, there will be a bottomless pit of recruits willing and able to engage in terrorism. This has nothing to do with Islam; in fact, terrorism to achieve political aims/freedom is a Western idea. It's a popular misconception that bombings etc are an example of Islamic barbarity; they're simply treading the same well-worn path as Western nations a few hundred years ago.

In my mind there is only one possible outcome: Western aggression/exploitation/meddling in the Middle East will come to an end when the number of Westerners dying as a result of war and terrorism crosses the boundary of what's acceptable to Western nations. The question that remains to be answered is how many people have to die in order to reach that boundary? I'll estimate that the British are less tolerant of dying British soldiers than the Americans are of their soldiers, and far more suspicious of the government's intentions in Iraq, so I'll guess that the boundary will be reached sooner in Britain than the US. Not soon enough, though: far from it.

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RE: 5 Myths About Terrorism - 9/15/2007 6:03:54 AM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
Real0ne:
That may look cute on a bumper sticker but it is less than accurate.  Perhaps you might want to read Hamilton's definition in the "Federalist Papers".  Where he compares and contrasts the two words.  He spends a fair amount of ink explaining why one is more useful (at the time) than the other.
Now I know you do not particularly like Hamilton but that does not detract from his knowledge and understanding of government.
thompson
 


You mean aside from my little issue with him that he was the first traitor in this country?

Its been a while, save me some time then, which part?


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

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RE: 5 Myths About Terrorism - 9/15/2007 6:09:44 AM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle
There must be some alternative out there that considers minority and majority concerns. I just don’t know what it is.


yup its called a "republic"!


Democracy 2 wolves and a sheep deciding what's for supper.

Republic:  2 wolves deciding whats for supper and a well armed sheep contesting the vote.




Realone, you might try at looking at European democracies where the sheep are doing decidedly better than the sheep in the American Republic.

Of course, France, Germany and Italy have republics but a republic is only a system of democracy and is not an alternative to democracy. Democracies are only as good as the people in power and who put the wolves in power if it isn't the sheep?


I dont like what you said here but you are for the most part on target imo.

A republic has roadblocks built in to prevent much of the corruption found in democracies and we are a good example how it has not worked.  (maybe)

A republic is only as effective as the level of intelligence and noncomplacency of its people.



< Message edited by Real0ne -- 9/15/2007 6:10:17 AM >


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to meatcleaver)
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RE: 5 Myths About Terrorism - 9/15/2007 6:11:42 AM   
Real0ne


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As far as terrorism myths are concerned welcome to the desert of the real:


Garcia later learned that another hit was planned, this time on the Cuban and Soviet embassies in Nicaragua. The plan was proposed to Garcia by Major Alan Saum, a confederate of Posey's and General Vernon Walters, U.S. ambassador to the UN and former Deputy Director of the CIA. As Garcia later testified in court, "Saum had come from the White House." Saum told Garcia the plan was "Vice-President Bush's baby."

While neither plot was carried out, the Octopus did manage to successfully murder eight people, mostly reporters, at La Penca, Costa Rica on May 30, 1984. The target was Eden Pastora, a Contra leader who wasn't going along with the plan, and was about to announce his misgivings at a press conference. CIA Deputy Director Dewy Clarridge had recently relayed a message to Pastora through Alfonso Robelo (who had previously met with Bud McFarlane at the White House) that his story would be "stopped" if he did not acquiesce.[1339]

The bombing was carried out by Amac Galil, who posed as a photographer, carrying a bomb inside a camera case. CIA "hit-man" Felipe Vidal told Terrell that Galil was a Mossad agent. He allegedly received his explosives training from John Harper, and his C-4 courtesy of John Hull. Vidal also told Terrell, "…we put a bomb under him and it didn't work because of bad timing."

As Terrell later stated: "…if anything happens to these people, whether they were carrying out directly or indirectly any plan of our government, it's easy to be at arm's length and have this great big beautiful deniability factor."[1340]

Naturally, the Washington Post and New York Times blamed the bombing on the Sandinistas.[1341][1342]

Yet Garcia knew better. "There are people here who are above the Constitution," recalled Garcia. "I didn't know the federal system was like this. I never dreamed."[1343]

Garcia was eventually set up by Saum on a federal gun charge, he figured, either because he refused to go along with the first plot, or simply because of his knowledge of it.[1344]

John Mattes, Garcia's defense lawyer, while investigating Garcia's story, began uncovering North and Casey's twisted web of gun and drug smuggling. While Mattes was eager to present the evidence in court, he never got the chance. The "Justice" Department, which initially started a probe, suddenly switched tracks. They "weren't interested" in going any further with it, Mattes said. He and his investigator were later called into the U.S. Attorney's office in Miami and told, "Get out. You're out. Stay out. You've crossed the line. You've gone too far." (The U.S. Attorney threatened the public defender with "obstructing justice.")[1345]

During testimony, Saum admitted that he had operated "under orders" to bring about Garcia's arrest. Saum's wife told Cockburn that he was working for the CIA.

Terrell would eventually express his misgivings to the press. As he writes in Disposable Patriot:

During an operation, the gravity of what you are doing is obscured by the determination to do whatever it is you have been programmed to do. If you whack a bunch of people, blow up cars or hotels, or murder children, it doesn't make any difference. Something in your character sets you apart from normal people, and once it's trained and propagandized to where you start believing what people are telling you, you lose your sense of right and wrong, and in some cases, your sense of morality. In the end, when the veil of perceived sanction is lifted and you no longer have the protection of the invisible barrier that justifies all your actions, then those unspeakable acts committed in the name of freedom and democracy, come back in a more objective retrospect. Finally, you understand the impact. You say to yourself, did I do that? Usually, you did.[1346]

Former CIA officer Victor Marchetti discovered this unfortunate truth long ago. As Marchetti writes in The CIA and the Cult of Intelligence:

The "clandestine mentality" is a mind-set that thrives on secrecy and deception. It encourages professional amorality — the belief that righteous goals can be achieved through the use of unprincipled and normally unacceptable means. Thus, the cult's leaders must tenaciously guard their official actions from public view. To do otherwise would restrict their ability to act independently; it would permit the American people to pass judgment on not only the utility of their policies, but the ethics of those policies as well.…

Finally, there was the blatantly uninhibited statement of former OSS Colonel George White, one of the original founders of the CIA:

"I toiled wholeheartedly in the vineyards because it was fun, fun, fun. Where else could a red-blooded American boy lie, kill, cheat, rape and pillage with the blessings of all the highest?"[1347]

Ten years later the Octopus would demonstrate similar ethics by bombing the Federal Building in Oklahoma, taking out two potential whistle-blowers in the process — Secret Service agents Alan Whicher and Mickey Maroney, while blaming it on Timothy James McVeigh — a "disposable patriot."

Were Whicher and Maroney — like Gannon and McKee — a "strong secondary target?" As HUD employee Jane Graham said, "Maybe there was a sting within a sting… to eliminate agents who knew too much."

Whicher formerly served on the White House detail, and was reportedly involved in a little-known incident involving electronic bugging of the White House by the Japanese. Whicher was subsequently transferred to the Federal Building in Oklahoma City.[1348]

It was also rumored that the Secret Service agent had talked to his wife just minutes before the blast, telling her that he had to get off the phone because he was told to wait for an important call. Apparently… that call never came.

http://www.constitution.org/ocbpt/ocbpt_14.htm







_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to Real0ne)
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RE: 5 Myths About Terrorism - 9/15/2007 6:31:55 AM   
Real0ne


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Myth number 6:  That it is everyone else!



err what was that? 

"we are going to root out and bring terrorists to justice wherever we may find them" 

"the 100 year war"

cough gag cough



Operation Gladio

Global Eye

Sword Play

By Chris Floyd
Published: February 18, 2005

'You had to attack civilians, the people, women, children, innocent people, unknown people far removed from any political game. The reason was quite simple: to force ... the public to turn to the state to ask for greater security."

This was the essence of Operation Gladio, a decades-long covert campaign of terrorism and deceit directed by the intelligence services of the West -- against their own populations.

snip

First revealed by Italian Prime Minister Giulio Andreotti in 1991, Gladio (from the Latin for "sword") is still protected to this day by its founding patrons, the CIA and MI6.

snip

The Bologna atrocity is an example of what Gladio's masters called "the strategy of tension" -- fomenting fear to keep populations in thrall to "strong leaders" who will protect the nation from the ever-present terrorist threat.

snip

Perhaps it's just a coincidence. But the U.S. elite's history of directing and fomenting terrorist attacks against friendly populations is so extensive -- indeed, so ingrained and accepted -- that it calls into question the origin of every terrorist act that roils the world. With each fresh atrocity, we're forced to ask: Was it the work of "genuine" terrorists or a "black op" by intelligence agencies -- or both?

http://context.themoscowtimes.com/stories/2005/02/18/120.html




_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to SugarMyChurro)
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RE: 5 Myths About Terrorism - 9/15/2007 7:07:33 AM   
Real0ne


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"You are either with the terrorists or you are with us!"


Kool!  Who the fuck is "us"?


2006-09-07: False Flag Operations: Declassified Military Documents Show How US Government Planned Terrorist Attacks Against its Own Citizens

Confirmed in an ABC News article and the National Security Archive of the George Washington University, shocking formerly top secret 1962 military documents, now declassified, provide irrefutable evidence that the Joint Chiefs of Staff & Chairman, the top US military leaders, planned and authorized terrorist attacks to kill American citizens. It involved using airplanes, blowing up a US ship and even orchestrating violent terrorism in American cities using fabricated evidence to falsely incriminate the Cuban government in order to justify an unpopular war to remove Castro from power.
New York, NY (PRWEB) September 7th, 2006 – As reported by ABC News, stunning military documents codenamed "Operation Northwoods" were declassified in recent years and show how in 1962, the top US military leaders planned an operation to create terror attacks against its own cities and kill US citizens. See: http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=92662&page=1


But Bin Laden is responsible for 911 who else could it be?

The gov said so!  LMAO

http://xiandos.info/2006-09-07:_False_Flag_Operations:_Declassified_Military_Documents_Show_How_US_Government_Planned_Terrorist_Attacks_Against_its_Own_Citizens


Thank goodness we have Home Land Security!  They will fix it!










_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to FullCircle)
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RE: 5 Myths About Terrorism - 9/15/2007 7:37:43 AM   
Petronius


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Actually Islamic terrorism has worked very well and very effectively.

It worked well for Ronald Reagan's government who armed, trained, and funded the Islamic terrorists in Afghanistan as "freedom fighters" against the Soviets.

It worked well for Bill Clinton's government in Yugoslavia, particularly after a huge propaganda campaign to brand the Yugoslavian anti-terrorist efforts as "ethnic cleansing" and "genocide."

It worked very well for the U.S. in Indonesia in the 1960s where upwards of one million Indonesians were murdered in the guise of being "communists."

The fact that Islamic terrorism worked doesn't mean that white Christian terrorism didn't.

It worked well for a hundred years after the Civil War to keep the southern black populace powerless.


(in reply to Real0ne)
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RE: 5 Myths About Terrorism - 9/15/2007 7:48:08 AM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Petronius

The fact that Islamic terrorism worked doesn't mean that white Christian terrorism didn't.

It worked well for a hundred years after the Civil War to keep the southern black populace powerless.



Its working well on most of us right this moment :)





_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to Petronius)
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RE: 5 Myths About Terrorism - 9/15/2007 7:51:03 AM   
Alumbrado


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Petronius

....The fact that Islamic terrorism worked doesn't mean that white Christian terrorism didn't.

It worked well for a hundred years after the Civil War to keep the southern black populace powerless.




Terrorizing an already powerless group is a far cry from using terroristic acts against a more powerful entity.

(in reply to Petronius)
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RE: 5 Myths About Terrorism - 9/15/2007 7:58:36 AM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

quote:

ORIGINAL: Petronius

....The fact that Islamic terrorism worked doesn't mean that white Christian terrorism didn't.

It worked well for a hundred years after the Civil War to keep the southern black populace powerless.




Terrorizing an already powerless group is a far cry from using terroristic acts against a more powerful entity.


How do you explain venezuela then?  The US led coup?

Likewise Iran, Iraq, can i stop now?




< Message edited by Real0ne -- 9/15/2007 8:08:58 AM >


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to Alumbrado)
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RE: 5 Myths About Terrorism - 9/15/2007 8:35:12 AM   
InfernoMDM


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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

quote:

Terrorism doesn’t work terrorists just think it’s the alternative to democracy.


1) Bin Ladin demanded Bush remove troops from his homeland, Saudi Arabia.

2) 9/11

3) Bush removes troops from Bin Ladin's homeland, Saudi Arabia.


Looks to me that, when confronting a coward like Bush, terrorism is very effective.


Thats actually kind of wrong.  Al-queada which Osama has been a major spokesman for  actually wants to see the destruction of the United States, and a Pan Islam.  After our invasion of Afganistan, there ability to mount a effective campaign of terror hall but been crushed.  Although organizations like JI may claim to attack for Al-Queada, they are really only a sister ogranization looking for regional control.

(in reply to farglebargle)
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RE: 5 Myths About Terrorism - 9/15/2007 8:38:59 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: InfernoMDM

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

quote:

Terrorism doesn’t work terrorists just think it’s the alternative to democracy.


1) Bin Ladin demanded Bush remove troops from his homeland, Saudi Arabia.

2) 9/11

3) Bush removes troops from Bin Ladin's homeland, Saudi Arabia.


Looks to me that, when confronting a coward like Bush, terrorism is very effective.


Thats actually kind of wrong.  Al-queada which Osama has been a major spokesman for  actually wants to see the destruction of the United States, and a Pan Islam.  After our invasion of Afganistan, there ability to mount a effective campaign of terror hall but been crushed.  Although organizations like JI may claim to attack for Al-Queada, they are really only a sister ogranization looking for regional control.



According to one US report on the news the other week, al queada are in better shape than ever. Proof that right wing simplistic idiotic thinking doesn't work.

As if al queada has the power to destroy the US, all it can do is inflict a gnat's bite.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to InfernoMDM)
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