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RE: No Limits: How far would you go? - 9/20/2007 2:59:18 PM   
rollinonward05


Posts: 78
Joined: 9/11/2005
Status: offline 		prop,   As far as I am concerned if this is how you chose to live your life and it makes you happy, excited, ecstatic ,well great. You have made your decision. And only you could make it. Now you have to live with it. Right? No one else.
          If this is some kind of fantasy you have made up and you are sitting back laughing at everyones anger, agreements, arguments etc etc. I hope you got all the reactions and attention you were hoping for.  Hey we all get our kicks in different ways. :)
rollin

(in reply to daddysprop247)
Profile   Post #: 561
RE: No Limits: How far would you go? - 9/20/2007 3:00:50 PM   
xoxi


Posts: 1066
Status: offline 		Sigh.

Of course I had to come back and read this.

If I saw someone about to jump off a cliff because their "master" told them so I would physically restrain them.  There is nothing in the world that can convince me suicide is a kink.

I've been discussing this with Aswad through email and am going to continue to do so in that venue.  However I understand what you're saying, prop, that the behavior is technically 'abusive' but is something you enjoy.  I also enjoy 'abusive' behavior though not to that degree.

Barring the legal status as his ward, I suppose that no matter how painful it is to hear about it, your life is your own to live or destroy in any way you want.  I do however think your legal status complicates this issue, and it would be in both you and your Daddy's best interests to have that situation rectified.

I truly hope that I never see the picture on your profile on the five o'clock news.  But something tells me if I did, quite a few of the 'freedom to be abused' posters here would join in a thread about 'Irresponsible Doms and their effect on how people view the Lifestyle.'

I only pray it doesn't go that far.  I truly wish you well.

(in reply to Rover)
Profile   Post #: 562
RE: No Limits: How far would you go? - 9/20/2007 3:29:04 PM   
Rover


Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline 		Fast Reply to no one in particular...
 
Boy, I go out of town for a few days and fifteen pages fly by.  I'm amazed that a nameless, faceless, anonymous person on the internet can be the catalyst for so much.  I'm further amazed that this nameless, faceless, anonymous person who always has the most extreme experience, always has the most extreme example, always has the most extreme commitment, always has the most extreme state of mind, always is the most extreme slave, always has the most extreme Master, always has the most extreme donut, lawnmower and grocery cart, can be taken so seriously. 
 
In order to have a serious discussion about the issues, you have to actually take the issues seriously and believe them.  I refuse to believe that many of you do, except that it's not "politically correct" to say so, or you perceive yourself to have gained some advantage by refusing to even address the question (as if to think rationally is "intolerant").
 
And now all of you, on both sides of several issues, have your panties in a bunch and most of you don't know, or want to know, if it's even truthful.  Jay Wiseman, if you're reading along... think "consensual ignorance" and send me my royalty check.
 
It's amusing and frightening at the same time.
 
John

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Sri da Avabhas

(in reply to xoxi)
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RE: No Limits: How far would you go? - 9/20/2007 3:38:25 PM   
celticlord2112


Posts: 5732
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quote:

In order to have a serious discussion about the issues, you have to actually take the issues seriously and believe them. I refuse to believe that many of you do, except that it's not "politically correct" to say so, or you perceive yourself to have gained some advantage by refusing to even address the question (as if to think rationally is "intolerant").


I guess this means no serious discussions with you?  Noted.


_____________________________



(in reply to Rover)
Profile   Post #: 564
RE: No Limits: How far would you go? - 9/20/2007 4:10:06 PM   
MadRabbit


Posts: 3460
Joined: 8/9/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover

Boy, I go out of town for a few days and fifteen pages fly by.  I'm amazed that a nameless, faceless, anonymous person on the internet can be the catalyst for so much.  I'm further amazed that this nameless, faceless, anonymous person who always has the most extreme experience, always has the most extreme example, always has the most extreme commitment, always has the most extreme state of mind, always is the most extreme slave, always has the most extreme Master, always has the most extreme donut, lawnmower and grocery cart, can be taken so seriously.  
 


Dont forget the extreme pizza she is eating. I bet it has far more pepporoni than any other normal slave in the BDSM community who adheres to the mantra of SSC.



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Advice for New Dominants
The Unpolitically Correct Lifestyle Definitions

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(in reply to Rover)
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RE: No Limits: How far would you go? - 9/20/2007 4:35:45 PM   
slaveofKaos


Posts: 143
Joined: 2/16/2007
From: California
Status: offline 		xoxi,
I would just like to say that I have read what prop has said on this thread and what you and all others have said as well and I agree 100% with everything you have said.
I believe there are some people who use this lifestyle as an excuse to be abusive, and or mentally unhealthy and I have always been against that. I someone isnt mentally capable of making good decisions for themselves you wouldnt put them in the care of someone who would make bad decisions for them would you? And if you would why would you?  These are just my opinions.

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slave jodi

(in reply to xoxi)
Profile   Post #: 566
RE: No Limits: How far would you go? - 9/20/2007 4:35:53 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: chellekitty

you gave me shit for pop-psychologizing someone else the other day, possibly on this thread even...i was just handing it back....thats all...


It was on this thread. And I didn't give you shit about it; I just said it was pop psych.

Could you help me understand what you mean by "handing it back"?

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to chellekitty)
Profile   Post #: 567
RE: No Limits: How far would you go? - 9/20/2007 4:51:41 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: xoxi

1. Killing someone for leaving you can't be compared to caning them for not doing the dishes.  Breaking their nose and knocking them down a flight of stairs, maybe.  But also, and this is the important point, by leaving someone you withdraw consent.  End of relationship - end of consent.  Period. Anything done after that is nonconsensual.


Interesting definition of consent. Whence does it derive?

The point was that I acknowledge both prior and irrevocable consent.

As far as I know, the law recognizes neither, but recognizes present consent for light stuff.

quote:


2. I meant "weaker" in the sense of physically weaker, as a fact and no insult intended.


My apologies for the misunderstanding.

quote:


3. My argument is not "she has no right to choose her lifestyle" and has never been.


Thanks for the clarifications.

quote:


I don't see anyone defending the man I'm criticizing - just turning it into an all-or-nothing argument on the theoretical dynamics of power exchange.


More like trying to illustrate that we're still in the gray area. And I'll bite as far as defending him goes: he's not done anything without consent. If you want to draw a line for what a person can do to a consenting adult that does not have to do with the consent itself (as you clarified that the consent wasn't relevant), feel free to pin it down for me.

I've tried to find a non-arbitrary one that can be objectively pinned down with no success.

quote:


4.  I never once said he should leave her.


Thanks for clarifying.

quote:


I said he should stop breaking her goddamn bones and exposing her to the threat of serious illness, disfigurement, and death.


Kind of his choice while the relationship is going on.
She gave him that right before being declared incompetent.
As she said earlier on in this thread, she does not regret doing so.
For that matter, lots of edge play exposes people to that kind of risk.

quote:


FFS is it SO hard to stop putting the person you love in mortal danger wtihout leaving them?


I can't answer as to the exact nature of their dynamic, or how it's sustained, except prop has repeatedly stated that she prefers fear as an element of the control he exercises over her, and that it's his right to do so. Doesn't seem like there's an impending doom going on here, so perhaps the brutality is biasing the risk evaluation slightly? Lots of people here engage in one or more of the same activities without the same criticism.

quote:


Or did he do this with all his previous girlfriends?


Basically. He let the previous one go because she was a masochist, meaning he had to be even harder for the same effect (e.g. with regard to punishments). Or, at least, that is what prop stated on another thread. In either case, that doesn't seem to indicate that he is specifically trying to cause excessive injuries, and does indicate a measure of restraint in his actions, regardless of whether the intended level is further out than most of us go.

quote:


Edited to add - I agree 100% that if she shows up in the hospital with broken bones she very well could be hospitalized again. Yet another reason why he should STOP DOING IT if he gives a SHIT about keeping her. Or is he just going to have her heal her bones naturally in a bedroom somewhere, with all the risks that involves?


I couldn't comment on that. I presume the thought has crossed his mind and been dealt with.

Benefit of the doubt and all that. It's cases like this that principle is applicable to.

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to xoxi)
Profile   Post #: 568
RE: No Limits: How far would you go? - 9/20/2007 5:00:12 PM   
chellekitty


Posts: 3923
Joined: 3/27/2005
Status: offline 		nope...you came in too late..the thread is dead...

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(in reply to Aswad)
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RE: No Limits: How far would you go? - 9/20/2007 5:02:54 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: chellekitty

the point is, that legally, at this point in time, prop can NOT consent to any kind of adult interaction...


Well, technically, he can consent for her, except when he's the other party.

Anyway, lots of others have made the point about other bits than the legal ones, and I would point out that jurisdictions vary with regard to what is legal and not, as well as what the standard is. Would you consider it important that a political dissident in the old USSR had been deemed incompetent for the "delusion" that communism wasn't perfect when evaluating their relationship? Do you ask whether LGBT members of the forum live in areas where their orientation is outlawed? Or whether Texans on the board own more than the legal limit on the number of sex toys a person can own before they are guilty of "possession with intent to distribute" (horrible crime, innit)?

"One has not only a legal, but a moral responsibility to obey just laws.
Conversely, one has a moral responsibility to disobey unjust laws."
- Martin Luther King, Jr.

quote:


and with relative ease and little to no cost, she could be declared competent with the help of a free lawyer through legal aide


Which might not be what they want, as this provides an added reinforcement of their dynamic.

quote:


please don't pick this apart....while i am identifying a problem, i am also trying to provide a solution...


It's been provided in the past. Even in this thread, IIRC.

Kudos for trying, however.

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to chellekitty)
Profile   Post #: 570
RE: No Limits: How far would you go? - 9/20/2007 5:11:14 PM   
Bobkgin


Posts: 1335
Joined: 7/28/2007
From: Kawarthas, Ontario, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: chellekitty

nope...you came in too late..the thread is dead...


I wouldn't say that.

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When all is said and done, what will you regret?

That you never really lived?

Or there was so much living left to do?

For those interested: pics and poetry have been added to my profile.

(in reply to chellekitty)
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RE: No Limits: How far would you go? - 9/20/2007 5:19:54 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: xoxi

I'm sorry, what does half the SM population have to do with this specific case?


Turning it around, why has 1/3 of this thread been devoted to this specific case, and mostly been bashing of a man who is not even present in the thread? As I recall, the topic at hand was "No Limits: How far would you go?", and not "Let's bash Daddy". Feel free to spawn a thread on the topic, but I think that'd be rather silly to do, though.

Half the D/s-population and all the SM population, by Darcy's estimate, could benefit from the same advice you are here giving to a person who is not even around to hear that advice. Perhaps it would be an idea to move this into more general terms, rather than specifics, so that people could converge on some more constructive debate?

quote:


Are you implying that half of the SM population is in the EXACT SAME situation, for the EXACT SAME reasons?


No two people on Earth are, or have ever been, in the exact same situation for the exact same reasons. Are you implying that one cannot extract any generalities about the human conditions? Certainly each case merits being viewed individually, but I would say that it would be more constructive if each person with an objection would put it in a very straight-forward, precise and general manner. If taken as such, the parts he quoted apply to more than just this one relationship. Presumably that wasn't an exact representation of your objection, however, so providing one that gets to the crux of the matter for you would greatly simplify the matter of addressing it.

quote:


If not, I will continue to judge each individual situation on its individual merits. I see no point in making blanket judgements.


I prefer not to toss the baby out with the bath water.

For instance, "getting your throat slit is lethal" is a useful blanket judgment in addressing a poster who is wondering whether there would be any risks associated with such a thing. Bringing up the point that some oddball case in South Africa happened to survive it doesn't really clarify the matter. Neither does "hmm... you'll have to try it for yourself so we can find out whether it has risks for you" seem like a viable or reasonable answer.

quote:


If I shoot a sick horse, are you going to come at me and say "well why don't you just go shoot ALL the horses then? After all they're horses right?"


Depends on the circumstances. I get the impression that you've said "It's not X" for just about every value of X except the one he quoted, namely the brutality of it all. Perhaps the idea of a man doing that to a "defenseless woman" is more deeply internalized than you realize? I don't know. And I won't make any assumptions about it. But it seems the various objections tend to yield either at the "concretizing" stage, or the "analyzing" stage.

The exception being the bit he quoted, which holds up, but is non-PC, as it sets a limit on brutality.

Which, as he said, means one might want to pass it on to more than a few others here.

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to xoxi)
Profile   Post #: 572
RE: No Limits: How far would you go? - 9/20/2007 5:25:14 PM   
YourhandMyAss


Posts: 5516
Joined: 6/25/2006
From: Sacramento
Status: offline 		just because they practice bdsm, and are on the net on these kinds of sites, do not  they're going to be tolerant. or better people.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

  So much for tollerant BDSM hey.
 
Peace
the.dark.


(in reply to RCdc)
Profile   Post #: 573
RE: No Limits: How far would you go? - 9/20/2007 5:29:16 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

how do you present yourself as having compassion for the victim, yet demonstrate no compassion for Props [...]?


Quite, Bob. I have another angle on that, as well:

She's been in this for several years.
She's stated she loves him very deeply.
She's states she wouldn't leave if she could.
She's states she virtually worships him as a god.

How does anyone think this kind of bashing of him will make her feel?

quote:


they don't like Props and they attack her and Daddy using whatever argument they can assemble, logic be damned.


That's been my impression for about four months, as well.

And it seemed to me- early on, before I "knew" her or any of the posters in question- that this all comes down to people taking her statements as a "sublier than thou" position, and backlash from that, whether from taking offense at thinking that they are being viewed as inferior (taking offense at one's own thoughts, usually due to vague definitions of the word "slave" in the CM community, and a specific, literal meaning by prop; I spent ages clarifying that in one thread, eventually resolved), or from taking her statements as arrogance, or from some sort of envy (wtf; who would envy the burden involved, if they're happy with the positive side of their own relationship?)...

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to Bobkgin)
Profile   Post #: 574
RE: No Limits: How far would you go? - 9/20/2007 5:32:51 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

So much for tollerant BDSM hey.


One might think it was, but most people have just internalized an "exception" to their own morality, rather than rationally supporting the reasons why their own kink is okay, and then being consistent in dividing other kinks into okay / not okay, using the same reasoning that allows them to support their own kinks. It takes a lot to convince someone to be tolerant. And all "tolerate" really means is "to put up with", not "to accept".

Open-mindedness is not a common or strong trait in humans.
BDSM is a common and average trait in humans.
Culture will catch up to the latter.
Not to the former.

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to RCdc)
Profile   Post #: 575
RE: No Limits: How far would you go? - 9/20/2007 5:34:35 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: breatheasone

Well when she ends up dead because she was just being an obedient "extreme slave" you all will just say..."Well at least she died by consent!!"


No, actually, I'll say "Poor prop."
Then I'll lament the loss to us, him, and her.

Consent doesn't need to be brought up in that context, any more than at a boxer's funeral.

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to breatheasone)
Profile   Post #: 576
RE: No Limits: How far would you go? - 9/20/2007 5:35:49 PM   
breatheasone


Posts: 4004
Joined: 7/14/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: breatheasone

Well when she ends up dead because she was just being an obedient "extreme slave" you all will just say..."Well at least she died by consent!!"


No, actually, I'll say "Poor prop."
Then I'll lament the loss to us, him, and her.

Consent doesn't need to be brought up in that context, any more than at a boxer's funeral.

Health,
al-Aswad.


Ok ...I can dig that.


_____________________________

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RE: No Limits: How far would you go? - 9/20/2007 5:41:04 PM   
camille65


Posts: 5746
Joined: 7/11/2007
From: Austin Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

And it seemed to me- early on, before I "knew" her or any of the posters in question- that this all comes down to people taking her statements as a "sublier than thou" position, and backlash from that, whether from taking offense at thinking that they are being viewed as inferior (taking offense at one's own thoughts, usually due to vague definitions of the word "slave" in the CM community, and a specific, literal meaning by prop; I spent ages clarifying that in one thread, eventually resolved), or from taking her statements as arrogance, or from some sort of envy (wtf; who would envy the burden involved, if they're happy with the positive side of their own relationship?)...

Health,
al-Aswad.



I think this is something that needs to be read again.

_____________________________


~Love your life! (It is the only one you'll get).




(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 578
RE: No Limits: How far would you go? - 9/20/2007 5:42:56 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: breatheasone

because weather you like it or not people there IS such a thing as right and wrong.....


Please provide me with a definition for it that is universally valid. I've found a morality that works for me, personally, in governing my life. However, I've yet to find any common morality, shared by all humans, across all time periods, in all cultures, that embraces the notion of BDSM and rejects the things you mentioned. And believe me when I say I've tried to find one. I'd love to see your "book of answers."

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to breatheasone)
Profile   Post #: 579
RE: No Limits: How far would you go? - 9/20/2007 5:48:19 PM   
breatheasone


Posts: 4004
Joined: 7/14/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: breatheasone

because weather you like it or not people there IS such a thing as right and wrong.....


Please provide me with a definition for it that is universally valid. I've found a morality that works for me, personally, in governing my life. However, I've yet to find any common morality, shared by all humans, across all time periods, in all cultures, that embraces the notion of BDSM and rejects the things you mentioned. And believe me when I say I've tried to find one. I'd love to see your "book of answers."

Health,
al-Aswad.


I'd really love to Aswad...but I'm afraid it wouldn't do any good... know what I'm saying? I have a sneaking feeling that anything I present as an absolute right or wrong will get picked to pieces...and that wasn't my intent.... *on a personal note* I think its kinda scary that we have to even discuss the fact that there are indeed absolute right and wrongs in the world..I would think thats a given....


_____________________________

Romans 10:13,For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Mike posts in black font
candy posts in pink font

(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 580
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