RE: Heritage or Hate?

RE: Heritage or Hate? (Full Version)

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domiguy -> RE: Heritage or Hate? (9/20/2007 8:56:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: caitlyn You weren't born a slave. Your father wasn't born a slave. Your grandfather wasn't born a slave. All of you probably suffered prejudice because of your race. It's out there, and it's ugly ... but you know, a lot of other people have suffered wrongs too. I will happily trade my first twelve years, for yours. I don't even know you, but would make that switch without question. So, take offense if you like, and be offended by some strips of cloth if that gets you through the day. Or, you can move on, and be better for it. It might seem like a simplistic statement, but if you carry this forever, you will have it forever. [:D] Peace ... The legacy of what that flag represents is very much alive and well in many parts of this country.....I find your answer shortsighted if not completely blind to the facts....If someone finds the flag to be offensive that is their choice...I doubt the flag haunts every thought or is constantly draped around one's neck like an albatross.... Yes, one individual can play the "my life sucked for awhile" don't tell me about having it rough....Caitlyn where do you live now? Going to college? How's life treating you these days?....How about embracing that idea of the "trade" now? Doesn't sound so appealing I would guess.... Just as the swastika carries feelings when displayed so does the confederate flag....It would be one thing if antisemitism was a thing of the past....The same can be said of the confederate flag...If all of the historic oppressions were all laid to rest in the past I doubt any of us would be having this discussion today.

Blaakmaan -> RE: Heritage or Hate? (9/20/2007 9:17:49 PM)
Serves me right! I knew I should have just gone straight to bed! Well... how to respond to caitlyn??? According to your profile you're are a 21-year-old caucasian female. OK. Even though perhaps you didn't mean it as such, for you to tell me, an African-American, regarding slavery, to just "get over it," is about as offensive as it gets. Despite what you may think, African-Americans haven't only been affected by slavery. After slavery was outlawed, African-Americans were never compensated for their hundreds of years of unpaid labor. After we gained our freedom, we were again victimized when Reconstruction ended, our protection from our former masters by the federal government evaporated, and the South was, as they so wimsically call it, "redeemed." We then suffered through a generation or two or three of sharecropping, which was just slightly an improvement over slavery. We were lynched, raped, and terrorized by terrorist organizations like the Klan. When we, en masse, left the South and traveled to the cities in the North for factory work, we were segregated into ghettos, excluded from unions, and victimized by riots in which our neighborhoods were invaded and attacked by whites, as in the Chicago race riot and the Tulsa, OK race riot. In short, besides slavery, we've suffered from brutal repression that includes subjugation under Jim Crow, segregation--by law in the South and by custom in the North, and discrimination that persists to this very day! You may not realize it, and you may not want to believe or recognize it, but as a white person you are advantaged by your white skin, as compared to African-Americans and other people of color, every single day of your life, so long as you live in the United States. "Get over it"??? We're not talking about breaking up with your boyfriend. I'm talking about generations of subjugation and oppression. Opression that continues to this day. So, you will pardon me if I decline to take your Oprah-esque advice to just "get over it," ok? Thanks.

caitlyn -> RE: Heritage or Hate? (9/20/2007 9:27:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: domiguy Yes, one individual can play the "my life sucked for awhile" don't tell me about having it rough....Caitlyn where do you live now? Going to college? How's life treating you these days?....How about embracing that idea of the "trade" now? Doesn't sound so appealing I would guess.... Oh, you don't have to convince me. When you just accept that life isn't fair, sometimes you don't get a fair shake, get over the hurt, and move on ... good things can happen to you. Tell me. Did you go to college? How is your life?

ForcefuIHands -> RE: Heritage or Hate? (9/20/2007 9:28:20 PM)
Okay, I'm kind of done, after reading 5 pages of post after post... I will, however, defend my use of the words "white trash." People are right. Excluding a group of people based on their economic station and willful ignorance is just as bad as racial prejudice. Just as shallow a judgment and just as fickle as excluding someone based on skin color. It's infantile, it's un-PC, and it's hurtful... Exactly why I use it. Why? Because so much prejudice comes from that sector of society, I think it's time the judgmental mirror was turned back the other way... if I have to listen to one more drawling imbecile talking about "n---ers and queers" with a rebel flag or a Nascar shirt, or what have you, then I'm going to shove a pencil in my ear. It's not that they are poor, or proud, it's that they are loud and choose to remain ignorant by choice. A person can't change their skin color, or their sexual preferences, but they can take the time to learn sensitivity to other cultures, colors, and creeds. I hear lots of talk about "heritage" and "culture" from people who use those words as banners against change. You have to know what actual heritage and culture is before you can say you have it... Old Country Buffet is not a culture or a heritage. Neither is a blatant disregard for other people, education, history, or hygiene. Read a book, see a few plays, eat at a "foreign" restaurant that's not Olive Garden and take it as a learning experience; then you can talk to me about heritage and culture. As with most people on a race-issue thread, I will state mine. I am white. I remember very clearly as a child being told if I end up on "the bad side of town" to make sure I was on the "black side" and not the "white side" because the white side was certainly more dangerous. Why? Because I'm a well-spoken and educated, cultured person, and they "don't take too kindly to people who are different." Not to mention the number of meth labs... Fine, so I'm prejudiced. Everyone is. I just choose to channel my intolerance toward the intolerant. If that makes me a hypocrite, then so be it. If you want to cry about how unfair it is, then you know how it feels... If it takes that kind of cruelty to people with a disposition of being cruel to realize the errors of their ways, then I have never been more proud to be a bigot.

domiguy -> RE: Heritage or Hate? (9/20/2007 9:36:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: caitlyn quote: ORIGINAL: domiguy Yes, one individual can play the "my life sucked for awhile" don't tell me about having it rough....Caitlyn where do you live now? Going to college? How's life treating you these days?....How about embracing that idea of the "trade" now? Doesn't sound so appealing I would guess.... Oh, you don't have to convince me. When you just accept that life isn't fair, sometimes you don't get a fair shake, get over the hurt, and move on ... good things can happen to you. Tell me. Did you go to college? How is your life? Wouldn't trade my life to become the richest black guy in the world....Where is that Chris Rock quote?

camille65 -> RE: Heritage or Hate? (9/20/2007 9:37:57 PM)
I appreciated your thoughts in your post.

caitlyn -> RE: Heritage or Hate? (9/20/2007 9:42:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Blaakmaan Even though perhaps you didn't mean it as such, for you to tell me, an African-American, regarding slavery, to just "get over it," is about as offensive as it gets. Fine, then don't get over it. Trust me, nobody really cares that you are offended. Nobody in this whole world is going to give a shit that you had it rough. Oh, some may give you the 'we understand' treatment, but they aren't doing that for you. They are doing it for themselves. So, be a martyr. Let us know how that works out. [;)]

caitlyn -> RE: Heritage or Hate? (9/20/2007 9:43:58 PM)
But, did you go to college?

domiguy -> RE: Heritage or Hate? (9/20/2007 9:54:57 PM)
Yes, caitlyn I graduated from college.

caitlyn -> RE: Heritage or Hate? (9/20/2007 10:06:36 PM)
Then you probably know the only race I really care about ... the race through traffic to get a good parking spot in the morning. By the way, I'd be willing to bet there are billions of people that would trade with Chris Rock. [;)]

Pulpsmack -> RE: Heritage or Hate? (9/20/2007 11:22:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Blaakmaan You may not realize it, and you may not want to believe or recognize it, but as a white person you are advantaged by your white skin, as compared to African-Americans and other people of color, every single day of your life, so long as you live in the United States. "Get over it"??? We're not talking about breaking up with your boyfriend. I'm talking about generations of subjugation and oppression. Opression that continues to this day. So, you will pardon me if I decline to take your Oprah-esque advice to just "get over it," ok? Thanks. You lived in a different world than I have, and you have seen firsthand a face of it that I only know in history books. I am sure you have experienced that form of racism on a firsthand basis, but you are also (with respect) part of a waning generation, as are your indignant assertions that white is the paintjob of privilege. It no longer is, despite what you choose to believe, and in many crucial areas of our society it is becoming a liability. The longer this class chooses to hold on to the resentment of the past, the longer their own chains remain upon them. I think "get over it" is a callous way to deliver the message, but it is a potentially valid message. Every people of every race and religion has experienced atrocity, and it is impossible, foolish, and counterproductive to even think one can exact a pound of flesh for one's forefathers from a nation, or from the descendants of the "offending people". You have a right to feel however you wish within the context of your life experiences. The problem with such discussions is that strong emotions cloud logic, and there is no argument that can counter emotion. I can understand you feeling extremely pissed at some dismissive young person who has never seen what you have with your own eyes shrugging the issue off, but the resentment and anger does nothing to address the issue. The crucial point that is so often missed is the power that these words and symbols is invested by their targets/victims. So long as it offends you, you lose. I think Caitlyn is right (blunt as she put it).... such offense is a form of weakness. Offense is anger. Anger comes from one of two places... hurt or fear. When you no longer give power to those words and symbols then they can no longer hurt or scare you, and you are no longer vulnerable to their power.

Zensee -> RE: Heritage or Hate? (9/20/2007 11:54:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: caitlyn Fine, then don't get over it. Trust me, nobody really cares that you are offended. Nobody in this whole world is going to give a shit that you had it rough. Oh, some may give you the 'we understand' treatment, but they aren't doing that for you. They are doing it for themselves. So, be a martyr. Let us know how that works out. [;)] Maybe he'll get over about the time you get over speaking on behalf of everyone else in the world, other than BlaakMaan. Oooops... forgot to wink... ;) Z. PS: Winking makes it ok to be rude, right?

seeksfemslave -> RE: Heritage or Hate? (9/21/2007 2:24:56 AM)
Once again I would have to say that this is a fantastic thread where people with emotionally based differences by and large have indulged in a serious debate. An argument in favour of banning visual symbols of any kind in schools was put by the lady poster , sorry cant remember your name, but then you will find as we have in the UK that in particular Muslims will object. What I think Blaakmaan Domiguy and Alumbrado are doing is channeling their resentment into the undoubted wickedness that was slavery and their experiences, if appropriate, of racial prejudice that exists to this day and focussing it on to a symbol ie the Confederate Flag. regardless of the motives of those who "fly" the Flag. This seems to me to be the actions of a demagogue. Standing for election on such a basis would undoubtedly get you elected. In the right district that is lol The socio/economic conditions that white blue collar/ working class types endured in Europe and America in the mid 19th century were ones of extreme exploitation and suffering. Political movements arose to try to rectify this. Likewise with slavery ! Racial prejudice will never be eliminated IMO and the best that the Afro American community in the US can do is to pull themselves up by their bootsraps. Easier said than done I admit

Alumbrado -> RE: Heritage or Hate? (9/21/2007 5:39:55 AM)
quote: What I think Blaakmaan Domiguy and Alumbrado are doing is channeling their resentment into the undoubted wickedness that was slavery and their experiences, if appropriate, of racial prejudice that exists to this day and focussing it on to a symbol ie the Confederate Flag. regardless of the motives of those who "fly" the Flag. Even though what I've posted is the exact opposite of that. Thanks for presuming to tell me what I think, as well as how to feel, without bothering to pay attention to what I've said...[8\|]

seeksfemslave -> RE: Heritage or Hate? (9/21/2007 5:58:05 AM)
quote: One more time, the potential for offense in wearing a Rebel flag, lies in the recent past...the New South of 1950 through today, not in a bunch of harmless Civil War buffs. Who said dat? Why Alumbrado in post 199 in this thread. ie in the racial prejudice underlying the opposition to federally enforce integration of the US educational system.

Alumbrado -> RE: Heritage or Hate? (9/21/2007 6:21:23 AM)
'Dat'? Is that your ethnic impression? Clever..... NO? But feel free to explain what role the Confederacy was playing in the 1950s. Or just keep on dissembling, and promoting hate and ignorance... somehow, I have feeling you will continue to choose the latter.

seeksfemslave -> RE: Heritage or Hate? (9/21/2007 7:25:10 AM)
Alumbrado: If I reread posts 214 215 and 216 either you are saying things that are too deep for my tiny mind OR you dont really know what you are saying. Which is it ?

meatcleaver -> RE: Heritage or Hate? (9/21/2007 7:26:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave Alumbrado: If I reread posts 214 215 and 216 either you are saying things that are too deep for my tiny mind OR you dont really know what you are saying. Which is it ? The latter seeks or at least that is my experience on him.

seeksfemslave -> RE: Heritage or Hate? (9/21/2007 7:30:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver quote: ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave Alumbrado: If I reread posts 214 215 and 216 either you are saying things that are too deep for my tiny mind OR you dont really know what you are saying. Which is it ? The latter seeks or at least that is my experience on him. Thanks MC, when I saw you had posted a quick reply I thought you were going to put the "boot in" . lol

Blaakmaan -> RE: Heritage or Hate? (9/21/2007 8:06:25 AM)
I marvel at your wisdom... When Oprah's job is open, you should apply! If you get the job, you can talk to the Palestinians and tell them to get over it. You can talk to the Arabs and the Israelis and tell them to get over it. You can talk to the Native Americans and tell them to get over it. You can talk to the Japanese-Americans who were interned during WWII and tell them to get over it (well, since they just got compensation, maybe they will!). You can talk to Osama Bin Ladin and tell him to get over it. You can talk to the North and South Koreans and tell them to get over it. You can talk to the peoples of China and Taiwan and tell them to get over it. You can talk to the Cuban-Americans and the Cubans and tell them to get over it. You can talk to the Hutus and the Tutsi in Rwanda and tell them to get over it. You can talk to the people of Chechnya and the Russians and tell them to get over it. You can even talk to the relatives of the people who died in the World Trade Center, and the Pentagon, and onboard the plane that crashed at Shanksville, PA and tell them to get over it. Oh, and don't forget to talk to the Jews and tell them to get over it, too! You should be quite busy...! In fact, if you had just managed to convince Bush to get over 9-11, we might not be at war in Iraq now... I guess you're too late for that one. That train has left the station. Just think! You can lead all of humanity to peace and harmony by just convincing the oppressed that all they have to do is "get over it"! Why didn't we think of that??? Speaking of "get over it," you might consider convincing the descendants of the Confederacy to get over it. Just tell them, the Civil War is over. You lost. Get over it! Maybe then they could give that offensive "piece of cloth" a rest! One thing I will take your advice about. I'll get over your replies to my posts from now on, so I won't have to bother responding... See, you did teach me something...!

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