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ORIGINAL: SadisticPrincess

I am a polyamourous person, but poly relationships are hard to make work. Being poly does not mean that you are free to cheat, it means that there are MORE people to be responsible to/for. For multi-partner relationships to work, absolute openness is essential.

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How tragic if he had left the marriage and then discovered the kink was not really important. Has he ruined the marriage for nothing?

It is one thing to leave a vanilla marriage when you know the needs are important to you and must be met. It is something else to leave the marriage when you do not know.

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ORIGINAL: TallDarkAndWitty
It is more like I put gas in my car because it was made for gas; I put wood on the fireplace because it was made for wood. What works for one does not work for the other. Neither is better, they are just different. Used for different purposes and desires.

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ORIGINAL: TiNeedsHouseboy
In reading through your stream of thoughts, there's an undercurrent that makes me react more like I'm reading the rationalization for pre-Civil Rights / southern segregation in the school systems: separate but equal. For me, I sense another dynamic bubbling just below the surface of what you're saying.

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ORIGINAL: pollux
SweetDommes, Akasha:

About the "10 years" stuff: I wouldn't expect your values to change, and (for Akasha) I didn't mean to imply anything about your fidelity or the fidelity of people close to you. That isn't where I was coming from at all. What I meant was, I would be very surprised if 10 years go by and you don't observe someone having an affair and find you're sympathetic to the person being unfaithful.

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ORIGINAL: pollux

SweetDommes, AAkasha, SadisticPrincess:

I don't tolerate infidelity in myself and I won't tolerate it in my partner. However, that's *my* personal morality -- it's what I insist on for myself and those close to me. That said, I'm not going to stand as judge & jury over someone else in a different situation. Sure, the best thing is to take the high road and demand honesty and attempt to work thru your problems rather than avoid them. But life's complicated and people are flawed, and I'm not spring-loaded to automatically condemn anyone (male or female) who has an affair until I've walked a mile in their shoes.

SweetDommes:

You make a very strong point about relating fidelity to SSC. I like that reasoning.

SweetDommes, Akasha:

About the "10 years" stuff: I wouldn't expect your values to change, and (for Akasha) I didn't mean to imply anything about your fidelity or the fidelity of people close to you. That isn't where I was coming from at all. What I meant was, I would be very surprised if 10 years go by and you don't observe someone having an affair and find you're sympathetic to the person being unfaithful.

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But the topic was talked about. She was aware that this was a need I was feeling, and we both had the opportunity to work on it together.

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What I meant was, I would be very surprised if 10 years go by and you don't observe someone having an affair and find you're sympathetic to the person being unfaithful.

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ORIGINAL: AAkasha

I've observed infidelity in friends or situations I have heard about -- I'm sympathetic about the situation but I'm not condoning their decision. I also have observed friends rushing into marriages when there are still unresolved issues. It's not my position to comment or judge. I just wouldn't do it the same way personally.

I've never seen a positive outcome from deception in a relationship that close (marriage). Have you?

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What could be the positive outcome of one person "testing the waters" and not telling their partner?

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ORIGINAL: GentleLady

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What I meant was, I would be very surprised if 10 years go by and you don't observe someone having an affair and find you're sympathetic to the person being unfaithful.

pollux

Personally after 50 years of living and not having this happen I would not expect it to happen in the next 10 years. It might but is very unlikely. I have known a number of people who have had affairs behind the back of their SO and things have never turned out for the best. I have also lived 12 years in an open marriage where we had multiple partners. The funny thing is that I am monogamous by preference.

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I have a great of sympathy for someone who is unhappy in their marriage or relationship and who feels that their needs cannot be met within that relationship and they stay. I have no sympathy for the choice to cheat on the SO. There are other options even if they can be painful options.

Gentle Lady

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ORIGINAL: pollux

Once again, if you're looking for an argument that it's ok for everyone to start cheating on their spouse, you're not going to get that argument from me. But I also think that the one surefire way to bring something unpleasant like infidelity into your life is to demonize it.

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ORIGINAL: AAkasha

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ORIGINAL: pollux

Once again, if you're looking for an argument that it's ok for everyone to start cheating on their spouse, you're not going to get that argument from me. But I also think that the one surefire way to bring something unpleasant like infidelity into your life is to demonize it.

How so?

Akasha

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The entire institution along with most of western civilization would collapse if there weren't any positive outcome from deception in marriage. It starts with "does this dress make me look fat?" and "honey, of COURSE your karaoke version of Blue Suede Shoes sounds just like Elvis" and just goes from there.

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ORIGINAL: pollux

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ORIGINAL: AAkasha

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ORIGINAL: pollux

Once again, if you're looking for an argument that it's ok for everyone to start cheating on their spouse, you're not going to get that argument from me. But I also think that the one surefire way to bring something unpleasant like infidelity into your life is to demonize it.

How so?

Akasha

I subscribe to this Jungian concept of the way opposites work in the psyche and the shadow and all of that. I think that unless we are very careful, we can tend to draw into our lives what we most fear/hate. I think when we get a strongly negative emotional reaction to something, that's a clue that we've touched a piece of our own shadow, and to the extent we don't acknowledge it, it will eventually make itself known.

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ORIGINAL: pollux
I think the situation of a vanilla guy who cheats to find out if there's anything 'better' out there is very different from that of a closeted kinkster who's trying to uncover a piece of his or her repressed sexuality. The moral issues in the second case are a lot cloudier.

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ORIGINAL: Shayna
"Do I look fat in this?" "Is my dick too small?" are actually very intimate questions raised within the relationship. Replying with "no you don't" or "no way" when you might think otherwise isn't lying, because the subtext really is "do you love me how I am?" and your response is reassurance that of course you do (unless you don't, which is whole different problem). It's a game played between partners who perhaps don't have skills to seek out reassurance in more direct ways. I don't see how that is comparable in anyway to hiding sexual and/or emotional intimacy between one partner and someone outside the relationship. To me that is apples and oranges.

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ORIGINAL: pollux

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ORIGINAL: AAkasha

I've observed infidelity in friends or situations I have heard about -- I'm sympathetic about the situation but I'm not condoning their decision. I also have observed friends rushing into marriages when there are still unresolved issues. It's not my position to comment or judge. I just wouldn't do it the same way personally.

I've never seen a positive outcome from deception in a relationship that close (marriage). Have you?

The entire institution along with most of western civilization would collapse if there weren't any positive outcome from deception in marriage. It starts with "does this dress make me look fat?" and "honey, of COURSE your karaoke version of Blue Suede Shoes sounds just like Elvis" and just goes from there.

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What could be the positive outcome of one person "testing the waters" and not telling their partner?

I think the situation of a vanilla guy who cheats to find out if there's anything 'better' out there is very different from that of a closeted kinkster who's trying to uncover a piece of his or her repressed sexuality. The moral issues in the second case are a lot cloudier.

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ORIGINAL: AAkasha

I understand that idea but don't think it applies in this case. I don't "demonize" infidelity first of all; I see it happening and it's none of my business when it comes down to it. I know what beliefs I hold true for my *personal* relationships and that's the extent of it. The only relationship I am responsible for is my own, and I work hard every day to live in honesty, trust and communication. If you don't work for it, you can lose it.

I also don't see how doing any less makes it less likely I won't fail at it. Should I instead rank honesty, integrity and trust lower in my *personal* relationship for fear of "inviting" it into my life?

Your statement is a bit silly in this case.

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I am content to let people make choices of their own, but they have to deal with the consequences. I think they should make educated choices, and should look at all the options, and if they are not considering all the options, I might point a few things out. I am not demonizing someone if I suggest to them they look at the big picture before making a choice to be dishonest with their primary partner. I am not demonizing someone by saying I wouldn't cheat.

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ORIGINAL: AAkasha


Every time I've talk to a male sub who is about to cheat on his wife, who has not thought it through, I've got them to look at things they never considered before. Like -- the big one -- where will it stop? What's the goal? What is the best possible outcome? What is the worst possible outcome? What are your priorities? How is this the right thing to do for your wife? And, surprisingly, in *many* of those cases the sub thought it through and decided to talk to his spouse. And in many of these cases, it worked out for the better.