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RE: Right to Free Speech, Censorship, blah, blah - 9/24/2007 1:16:53 PM

Real0ne

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Personally.....

in a case like this where you have so many issues that could come into litigation and litigation = $$$$, I would simply do a work around.

Strip out everything from the site that they may find offensive to their virgin eyes and work on your site as a skeleton project and cut and paste into the final project.

Lots of ifs ands and buts in your situation imo.

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Post #: 21

RE: Right to Free Speech, Censorship, blah, blah - 9/24/2007 1:29:20 PM

Archer

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Confirm the nature of the problem if it is the fact that it is Sexually oriented, then you simply make a duplicate of your site substituting Widgets for the products you currently offer.
Black and blue leather Widget (Insert pic of widget in black and blue)
The skills and tools you use to build any basic shopping website are essencially the same.
When you are through you can undo the substitutions easily enough.
This wil help in your ability to catch up with the 6 week lost time.
The design is exactly the same the text and pictures are all that is different.

You get only so many times you can fall on your sword, you have to use tem spareingly, LOL.

(in reply to Real0ne)

Post #: 22

RE: Right to Free Speech, Censorship, blah, blah - 9/24/2007 2:38:47 PM

sub4hire

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Excellent idea, still a lot of work. I'll ask the deans boss on Weds if that would acceptable without coming right out and asking. What exactly is the issue at hand. Aside from just pushing it to the side calling it obscene.

I imagine in the end I may not pass the course. I'd like to...been running 6 week's with an A+....after this week it might have fallen to an F.
I think I'm still going to also go with a fail safe site. Only because I very well could get expelled if I push to far. I do plan on pushing because I don't feel this was just at all. At this point even a site with the photo's changed may be good for expulsion, I have no idea but need to be safe.

Already contacted a freelance writer to write up the story if it comes to that. She is interested.

On a totally different note...censorship remains the same but...its politics.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,297866,00.html

Doug found it interesting and sent it to me earlier today.

(in reply to Archer)

Post #: 23

RE: Right to Free Speech, Censorship, blah, blah - 9/24/2007 4:21:58 PM

pahunkboy

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From: Central Pennsylvania
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bet she is blanking and drooling over the sight that she doesnt want to see!

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Post #: 24

RE: Right to Free Speech, Censorship, blah, blah - 9/24/2007 4:36:21 PM

feastie

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OP, basically, you're SOL. It doesn't matter that it isn't fair, but then as a submissive, you should understand that things are not always fair. You should build a new site, but I'd really stay away from anything controversial. Showing that your panties are in a knot is not beneficial to you at all. Just choose something else and get busy. You're behind schedule. Pick your favorite kind of dog, flower, music, band, whatever. There are times for rebellion and times to placate for your own sake. Play the game and take a stand elsewhere. As my sister always says, "you have to pick your battles."

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Disclaimer: Any views expressed in any post are my opinions only. They may or may not be yours.

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Post #: 25

RE: Right to Free Speech, Censorship, blah, blah - 9/24/2007 6:42:00 PM

Petronius

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First, as some pro-corporate and pro-college people pointed out, it isn't "censorship." However, too many people seem to believe that once they've pointed out that the word "censorship" is misused that all the issues raised have been effectively dismissed.

They haven't. The issues in the OP remain, despite a misuse of the word.

I've written in the past about pro-corporate forces who routinely throw off contract law to simply kiss corporate ass and to inform others that they must kiss corporate ass, having no rights against the corporation.

ISP's have no right to "do whatever they want with their property" because as soon as they sign a contract they've given up property rights.

There seems to be a similar view that's automatically supportive of the college administration, essentially "you agreed to their rules when you signed up."

That's not necessarily the case, as various lawsuits routinely show, e.g. that college rules are illegal.

Nor do I see any college rules that were broken by the person who made the OP. On the contrary, with rules against sexual discrimination and sexual harassment I can see possibilities where college rules were broken by the professor, along with state and federal laws.

But above all I see another contract issue: professor and student agreed on a course of action. The student kept to the agreement; the professor did not. The student is injured by the professor's actions.

I don't think you can change agreements mid-semester with impunity, simply because one person wants to.

As the country moves ideologically to the right under Bush and his propagandists I find I increasingly espouse a sort of pseudo-conservatism:

1) Contracts are contracts for both sides;

2) Contractual obligations obligate both sides;

3) A claim of fact, rule, or law made by any authority figure is not correct or valid because the authority figure made it.

(in reply to pahunkboy)

Post #: 26

RE: Right to Free Speech, Censorship, blah, blah - 9/24/2007 7:47:58 PM

Lumus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sub4hire

quote:

ORIGINAL: Satyr6406

Why not start a new website? Make it op/ed in content and discuss this very issue on that site (I have a few articles I've written that you can use as "filler").
Is there a risk that the teacher won't find it amusing? Yes. Is there a risk that you might fail the course? Yes. Is this issue import enough to risk all of that? Only you can answer that question.
Peace and comfort,
Michael

Well in the very first post. I did say I was planning a fail safe website. I did ask for links.
Still hoping someone has some good ones. Yes, I want to plan the new website with this ordeal in mind.
That way when I ask questions...(normally I rarely do in class) and I will ask plenty she will know the contents of the new website.

As to those who think I am using their products to build. Nope, I am using my own. Was just using the class as a learning tool to re-develop my site. I do have a store as well at this point. It isn't strictly a web based business.
It is all my own money. I pay for my server. I pay for my software...etc..etc. I copyright everything I do.

Side note [may not apply due to geography]:

Here in Canada, I've yet to see a school that allows any individual over the age of 16 use or implement school property to create a privately owned business. I myself had several business ideas in high school, and beyond, and was implicitly told in each case when I badgered about it that anything made on school time is school property, and therefore cannot be used to make personal profit.

Might be different where you're at, but you ought to have gone higher than the teach when you planned to do this at school using their materials [and yes, even using their computers and their time is considered as such]. I would go further to say that if you wanted to treat this like a proper business, you should have gone straight to the head...or did you honestly believe the teacher could speak for the legal rights of the entire school...?

The idea's been bumped around to change topics. I'm going to have to agree with that.

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(in reply to sub4hire)

Post #: 27

RE: Right to Free Speech, Censorship, blah, blah - 9/25/2007 9:21:07 AM

sub4hire

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lumus

Might be different where you're at, but you ought to have gone higher than the teach when you planned to do this at school using their materials [and yes, even using their computers and their time is considered as such]. I would go further to say that if you wanted to treat this like a proper business, you should have gone straight to the head...or did you honestly believe the teacher could speak for the legal rights of the entire school...?

Well as I said in previous posts. I do not work on it at school. Nor have I ever or would. This is a final project for the class and it is done totally outside of school. Kind of like homework. We have classwork in class and more often than not there isn't even enough time to get that done.
This class wasn't exactly a class where you couldn't own the software yourself and pass.

Actually, the dean told me yesterday he would have went along with the professor no matter what her decision.
So if she had not changed her mind. My project would still today be fine to complete.
Anyway, I go see the deans supervisor tomorrow. Also working on a new website in spare time today.

(in reply to Lumus)

Post #: 28

RE: Right to Free Speech, Censorship, blah, blah - 9/25/2007 9:38:31 AM

pahunkboy

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I still dont see why you cant be graded on the technical website. not the subject of the content.

re-read the course description: and sylybus. that is your contract

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Post #: 29

RE: Right to Free Speech, Censorship, blah, blah - 9/25/2007 11:54:11 AM

Termyn8or

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I noticed something a while back sub....

You said you wanted to learn and do your own web design. I am assuming for your own business. If that is the case the grade means nothing. If, on the other hand you want to design websites for others, the grade could be important.

Of course this situation would burn me up as well, but just how important is the issue ? Skills and accreditation are two different things. What's more, even if your grade suffers, you can become known for your work. Worked for me, I am self taught. I do not even have a highschool diploma. Yet I am one of the highest paid consumer electronics technicians in the state. I have also designed and built electronic devices, which worked by the way.

Frankly I think your decision in the beginning may have been a bit flawed. I wouldn't have attempted to use anything but mundane material for a class project. This is the equivalent to a thesis or dissertation, the final project, and a sizable portion of the grade. As such it should be considered near public. That's why nearly all such works use psuedonyms for people who may have been interviewed or studied, if they are referred to specifically.

It is not only that there will be more than one person viewing it at the end of the course(s), later, many present these things when going into the job market. If, for example, one destined to enter the mental health care profession, their publications would be written in the most clinical fashion. In other words a kinkster who wants to be a shrink may explore the subject deeply in their dissertation, but would rarely if ever mention their own kinks.

In other words, I make make something of this import something that I could show to granny, or anyone. Anyone. Even the most Puritanical of religious zealots. Sorry to put the crow on your plate, but it is a small one and I have some excellent sauce.But that is the way I see it. I would not have made the decision in the first place. I do agree though, that what happened was shitty. They should've said no upfront.

If you think your grade (assuming that it is important, and you weren't just there for the knowledge) do a pre-damage assesment. Is being behind going to hurt your grade to almost the same degree as having the work rejected ?

If so you might want to go with the original, stick to your guns and maybe fight it out after the fact. In fact, that would probably result in some free publicity. Maybe I would take it after carefully considering just what will happen. Maybe not. Your choice.

T

(in reply to pahunkboy)

Post #: 30

RE: Right to Free Speech, Censorship, blah, blah - 9/25/2007 2:49:30 PM

celticlord2112

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quote:

The very first day of class I told her my intentions. Living in the middle of American and knowing how repressed they can be. I asked if it was ok for me to re-build the website I already own. www.PassionateSinsations.com
She said, yes, no issue. After class last week I get an e-mail from her telling me I could no longer work on my website as it violates the rules of the college. I've since been through them...etc. It violates nothing but a bunch of stuffed shirts.
So, currently I am starting a fight for my rights to free speech as an American Citizen. Fighting for my right to not be censored.

Errr....how are you being censored?

Unless I'm seriously misreading this, they are telling you that you cannot submit a rebuild of your website for a graded project/activity in the class. Unless they are telling you to dismantle the website altogether or be sanctioned by the school, I don't see a First Amendment issue here.

They have a right to determine what they will and will not accept as valid schoolwork. You acknowledged as much when you asked your instructor if you could do this. Your instructor got overruled; it sucks, but it happens.

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Post #: 31

RE: Right to Free Speech, Censorship, blah, blah - 9/25/2007 3:00:19 PM

Rule

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Simply duplicate your site and change the product line to baseball cards or whatever. If you can sell X, then you also can sell Y, Z and the other letters of the alphabet.

(in reply to sub4hire)

Post #: 32

RE: Right to Free Speech, Censorship, blah, blah - 9/25/2007 11:23:01 PM

Termyn8or

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Ever done a website Rule ? It ain't quite that easy toi change like that..

T

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Post #: 33

RE: Right to Free Speech, Censorship, blah, blah - 9/26/2007 9:06:03 AM

sub4hire

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

Ever done a website Rule ? It ain't quite that easy toi change like that..

T

No kidding. I was going to just delete the photo's like a few talked about earlier on in this thread. That is some serious work. It is easier just to create the new site and delete everything...well pretty much everything.
I've got hours upon hours of work into it already. Hand designing graphics...etc. Even went with a different distributor than I first had so I can offer products at even cheaper prices.

You are right, it isn't the grade I am seeking it is the skills. I have contemplated fighting it out....seeing where it goes. After all I have the book. I do the work at home before school. The professor cannot help if you desperately needed it. She just doesn't seem to know the context at all. She does the chapter work right before we do...same thing I've been doing. I generally know more about how to navigate around than she does.
Anyway, I started a freedom of speech in middle america website. Been working on my own. I have an appt in a half an hour with the vice president of the college.
I have this class tonight....if I see the professor I'm seriously thinking of telling her I need to miss class. Need to go by the uniform store...etc. Of course she drops you by an entire grade if you miss a day. However, grades ultimately don't matter a whole lot at this point. I would still like to pass the class but I do understand I may not.

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Post #: 34

RE: Right to Free Speech, Censorship, blah, blah - 9/26/2007 9:11:19 AM

Alumbrado

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Change the photos of everything to books about freedom of expression, individual rights censorship, etc... see if the prof has a sense of humor....

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Post #: 35

RE: Right to Free Speech, Censorship, blah, blah - 9/26/2007 9:48:35 AM

LotusSong

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From: Domme Emeritus
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quote:

ORIGINAL: toservez

Free speech has to do with being protected from the government and not from your workplace or school whether publicly or privately funded.

Your website is not being persecuted it is just deemed not acceptable/too risky for the school or professor. In fact in some ways you are pushing your views on them as if the school or professor takes slack because someone found this wrong it really would not affect you.

You became a student and signed up for the class and these actions had both explicit and implied agreements and personally I think the professor and/or school are well within their scope to do what they did. I do not find it offensive at all but that is not the issue here. Their right to approve or disapprove a project is. You are not damaged one ounce.

Free speech is a huge issue and right for all people and in all honestly getting on a high horse because of a school project cheapens the issue in my opinion.

I agree with toservez.

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Post #: 36

RE: Right to Free Speech, Censorship, blah, blah - 9/26/2007 11:41:50 AM

sub4hire

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Kind of sort of what I am doing. I'm still looking for articles and links to good sites on freedom of speech.

Saw the vice president today. They consulted their attorney. Sited a case out of California. Anything that has sex in the title is obscene. Anything related to sex on any level is obscene.
My new front page (the one I designed) is not obscene until you see the product categories. Which are almost the same as the ones I have on the current site. With the addition of a few. The word dildo is obscene.

Problem with the word obscene is. There is nothing regarding that word in anything I could find relating to the college. There are codes of conduct. Codes of business conduct. Yet, nothing to do with sex. Nothing that even comes remotely close to what we are discussing.
Essentially the vice president said I could stick it out and change my website. Or I could drop the class.

Now, if I happen to get stuck someplace and need help on something. I'm shit out of luck as she put it. Whether it is my website or the new one. Essentially the professor can answer simple questions but nothing more elaborate. So, she is going to be talked to. Yet, in reality how does that help the students at all? If she is not qualified to teach, then she is not qualified. She is still going to stay one chapter ahead of all of the students.
It isn't like she is going to gain knowledge.
So, the dilemna is drop or stay? What extra can I learn by staying? I don't know. She hasn't been any help yet. She doesn't even know all of the bookwork.
Another thing I am contemplating is the grade. I could stay on the hopes that I do learn something from her.
Then strike at the end and not turn in a final project. Thereby trashing my entire grade. This is the whole principle to me at this point.
I am going ahead with the article with the freelance journalist. Beyond that, I'm not sure what I plan on doing. I don't want to hire an attorney..if possible.

(in reply to Alumbrado)

Post #: 37

RE: Right to Free Speech, Censorship, blah, blah - 9/26/2007 11:48:56 PM

Termyn8or

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If it is the knowledge you seek, use it. Use the book, don't be late to cklass but you can miss days.

Use them, you paid them. This is what you paid for.

No disruptiveness or arguments over this or any other stupidity. Just make your decision if you want a fight or not. Personlly, I say this, if your job is not going to be webdesigner for some mister bossman, and the grade hardly means shit to you, stay bold. But if you ever want to take any more courses there, not too bold.

I have been in conflict most of my life, and I admit I almost enjoyed it, hell I DID enjoy it. And I do not regret it, but the fact is that it did me no good. In fact it hurt me.

(five minute pause)

Perhaps the best advice I can give is "chose your battles wisely".

Possible gain, possible loss and your odds of winning. It is the same thing as playing poker. Bet, call, fold or raise. Which one to do is determined mathematically, sometimes using math without numbers.

Yup, math without numbers, ask and I will tell.

T

(in reply to sub4hire)

Post #: 38

RE: Right to Free Speech, Censorship, blah, blah - 9/27/2007 12:17:49 AM

laurell3

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quote:

ORIGINAL: toservez

Free speech has to do with being protected from the government and not from your workplace or school whether publicly or privately funded.

Your website is not being persecuted it is just deemed not acceptable/too risky for the school or professor. In fact in some ways you are pushing your views on them as if the school or professor takes slack because someone found this wrong it really would not affect you.

You became a student and signed up for the class and these actions had both explicit and implied agreements and personally I think the professor and/or school are well within their scope to do what they did. I do not find it offensive at all but that is not the issue here. Their right to approve or disapprove a project is. You are not damaged one ounce.

Free speech is a huge issue and right for all people and in all honestly getting on a high horse because of a school project cheapens the issue in my opinion.

Sorry wrong, "governmental action" can include institutions with public funding. Emporeror 1956 is correct on this point, the caselaw is clear. Even incidental public funding can constitute "governmental action."

Whether you are violating any contractual obligation, website rules, etc with the college, or whether the college can premise your receiving credits on an agreement to uphold a certain moral standard, all those things are possible although not necessarily sufficient to defeat a first amendment case, if you have one. But whether the first amendment applies or not, you want to be careful picking this battle because you might get what you ask for.

Celcticlord may also be correct in that you aren't actually being restricted from this form of expression, merely doing it the way you are.

Obscenity is defined in a long line of United States Supreme Court cases. If you want some starting place, hit the books but, no one on a website that doesn't know all the facts, hasn't talked to the college and doesn't know the locale and their proclivities can give you flip pertinent legal advice, go talk to an attorney, not a bdsm website, many offer free inital consultations.
l

< Message edited by laurell3 -- 9/27/2007 12:21:12 AM >

(in reply to toservez)

Post #: 39

RE: Right to Free Speech, Censorship, blah, blah - 9/27/2007 7:04:53 AM

sub4hire

Posts: 6775
Joined: 1/1/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: laurell3

Obscenity is defined in a long line of United States Supreme Court cases. If you want some starting place, hit the books but, no one on a website that doesn't know all the facts, hasn't talked to the college and doesn't know the locale and their proclivities can give you flip pertinent legal advice, go talk to an attorney, not a bdsm website, many offer free inital consultations.
l

Obscenity was defined yesterday for me. Essentially it is anything that has to do with sex period. The word sex is obscene. The word intercourse is obscene. Its a big blanket word that they seem to put on everything.

When you get down to it we are more than likely all obscene because we are of different sexes being male and female. Of course they didn't say that but that is about how ludicrous their definition was.

(in reply to laurell3)

Post #: 40

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