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RE: America has more people in jail... - 9/25/2007 1:51:27 AM   
winwin


Posts: 4
Joined: 8/31/2006
Status: offline 		SugarMyChurro -

I  am completely in agreement with you.  I slowly became aware of the the use of prisoners for profit, their enslavement and third worldization.   I noticed that there were too many incessant telemarketers, then Dell was caught using prisoners to recycle, next the tidal wave of  commercials waged to stop the repeal of the 3 Strikes Law in California (when it appeared that 75% of voters were going to repeal the law), lately some good old boy sheriff bragging about supplementing his income with his prisoner work "programs."  I've been enraged and frustrated that no one seems to give a shit about this...and I was only considering the obvious filthy profits for private, corporate and (no doubt) organized crime. I mean really, has Huffington or MoveOn.org ever examined this much?  Maybe they have, and I'm just not aware of that.

Your reference to that proud prison industry site absolutely took it to a new level for me.  It takes it right into the Military Industrial Complex.  Of course, I just didn't think it far enough through before.  Thank you for that info and also for stating two very,very simple truths about why America has so disproportionately many prisoners.  And what's amazing is that the people profitting are arrogantly boastful of their success in exploiting the poor, the minority, and the addicted ...who constitue the majority of the prison  (forced)  work force. 

There's much further to go on this subject, many more dots to connect, but for tonight I just wanted to chime in with this much and again to thank you.

Sincerely,
winwin

I'm pretty sure that Bush-Cheney have accelerated the implosion of capitalism/






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Profile   Post #: 21
RE: America has more people in jail... - 9/25/2007 2:16:09 AM   
latexbarbiets


Posts: 93
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline 		The big problem with prisons is the return rate of repeat offenders, the % is extremely high. Another major problem is there is virtually NO rehabilitation for those that would like a better future for themselves. No educational classes(short of teaching you how to rake rocks), and what educational stuff there is has a extremely tiny budget. I knew of a computer and electronics program a while ago and all their computers were tsr 80s and a few 386's. You cant teach people with such outdated technology. If the prison system would focus more on education of jobs that are actually needed and up to date there would be less overall in jail. As for the extremely violent offenders, death penalty should be reinstated in most states. WHY lock a man up for 421years(someone was just sentanced to that), huge waste of governemnts money.  Heres the real funny kicker, alot of new prisons are privatized, which means they are privately owned and for profit, so they MAKE more money the more prisoners they keep in the systems, thats F'd up.

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Profile   Post #: 22
RE: America has more people in jail... - 9/25/2007 2:23:09 AM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

America locks up more people because of its protestant cultural inheritance which is more prone to screwed up morality and righteous indignation than rational thought in social matters. Britain's thinking is equally fucked up on such matters too and keeps looking to America for answers instead of its European neighbours which have far less crime and social problems and far less people in prison, where rational thought and realism on such matters come before mindless moral indignation.


This doesn't make sense to me, MC.

a) Germany and The Netherlands have a Protestant background matching that of Britain and the US.
b) Britain doesn't look to the US for the answers, we tend to have our own style which is more individualistic than continental Europe, and less so than the US. 'Ever thought that the reason our government tries to strike a balance with both of them, is because we're different to both, and the sensible approach is to maintain good relations with both, rather than one at the expense of the other. This is an area where I agree with our government.

I do agree with your "rational thought" comment. The great paradox of Britain is the irrational approach to drugs and prositution; it doesn't make any sense when you consider the history of our country. As you imply, boxing people in and treating them like children who can't make decisions for themselves, is a recipe for some form of rebellion (in this case conveyed by the high rates of drug abuse). 

I also think there is some truth in freedom from restriction being a factor: in my mind, an individualistic society has less regard for the community, and thus has less regard for taking from the community, whether that be theft, rape, murder etc. A relatively high wealth gap lends towards crime, and the two countries with the highest wealth gap in the developed world, are the two countries with the highest serious crime rates. We have an underclass with relatively low opportunity presented to them, and they don't give a fuck for authority or the community: why would they when authority and the community don't seem to care about them? People want to achieve; if there's such a thing as a human nature, then I would say that the drive to achieve is a common factor: if they can't achieve in terms of employment, then they'll look to crime as a means of achievement or a means of lashing out at the society which reduces their options for achievement.

Edited for spelling

< Message edited by NorthernGent -- 9/25/2007 2:28:42 AM >

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RE: America has more people in jail... - 9/25/2007 2:54:29 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

I also think there is some truth in freedom from restriction being a factor: in my mind, an individualistic society has less regard for the community, and thus has less regard for taking from the community, whether that be theft, rape, murder etc. A relatively high wealth gap lends towards crime, and the two countries with the highest wealth gap in the developed world, are the two countries with the highest serious crime rates. We have an underclass with relatively low opportunity presented to them, and they don't give a fuck for authority or the community: why would they when authority and the community don't seem to care about them? People want to achieve; if there's such a thing as a human nature, then I would say that the drive to achieve is a common factor: if they can't achieve in terms of employment, then they'll look to crime as a means of achievement or a means of lashing out at the society which reduces their options for achievement.

Edited for spelling


I've got to agree. What is irrational about the British government is that they had all the statistics suggesting the above but have continued to refuse their validity.

When I worked in the probation service we had all sorts of programs developed in the US but none from Holland, Germany or Scandinavia which had proved far more succesful than American programmes (they put in the necessary resources for their success too).

In regard to drugs, a London doctor developed what was known as the London project which gave addicts their drugs so they could function and get jobs and a home, getting them into a better situation to be weaned off drugs. Though this was proving successful, this was kicked into touch by the Thatcher government. The Swiss now use it with some success and other European countries use modified versions of the programme. Irrationality and contradiction rules in Britain in regard to criminal justie system.

There is also no consistency of sentencing. If you are convicted of crime A in a south west London court you will get a far bigger sentence than if you are convicted of crime A in an north east London court. No guesses as to why. The government tried to correct this by making courts give out all the same sentences for the dame crime. The tariffs were upped to even things out rather than lowered so more and more people got sent to prison. The government thought it was then politically too sensitive to lower all the tariffs to get the desired result. Totally irrational because of wanting not to lose political popularity. Here in Holland, that doesn't seem to happen, problems are looked at rationally for the most part.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 9/25/2007 2:57:01 AM >

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RE: America has more people in jail... - 9/25/2007 3:46:52 AM   
Bobkgin


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From: Kawarthas, Ontario, Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

We are still just a small step above animals. I believe the more freedom in a society the more crime. Criminals are not as afraid to act on their base instincts.

In closed societies like Iran…where just being gay can get you hung…or being a prostitute will get you stoned to death…and drug use is immediate death… then yes you will have less crime. Fear helps control the criminal element at the expense of  personal freedom. 
I'll trade a little more crime for personal freedom. At least until I am staring down the barrel of a 38…. held by a nut case on angel dust … made legal by bleeding hearts that want all drugs made freely available.

Butch


That is utter crap.

Compare the crime stats per capita in Canada and America ... and we're even more liberal than America (gays can marry here, for example).

Last I checked the number of murders in all of Canada were less than the number of murders in Detroit alone.

It isn't freedom that causes the problem.

You have three factors at work in America:

1. Your insane war on drugs.
2. Your insane belief that black men should be incarcerated.
3. Your insane belief that conservative law-and-order types are "compassionate".

Here our Senate finally agreed marijuana should be legalized (which will never happen because America would close the border)
Here the racism is not nearly as prevalent.
Here the conservatives are kept in check by a healthy respect for liberalism (scandals notwithstanding).

Only in America could more government resources be spent on where the president places his dick than whether America should launch a war against Iraq (while North Korea builds the Bomb).

It isn't freedom that causes your crime: it's insanity to expect a society raised on selfishness to behave in a socially responsible manner.

< Message edited by Bobkgin -- 9/25/2007 3:48:38 AM >

_____________________________

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Or there was so much living left to do?

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RE: America has more people in jail... - 9/25/2007 4:06:57 AM   
EPGAH


Posts: 500
Joined: 12/25/2006
Status: offline 		What's wrong with "forcing" criminals to work? They get "free" shelter, "free" medical care (Better than most HONEST peoples' insurance-programs/HMOs), "free" cable-TV, and "free" exercise rooms (Complete with free-weights that could be used as weapons against their guards, who have progressively less authority and leeway on ways to keep them in line.
OH! And "free" legal aid while in prison, so they can deluge the court-system with lawsuits that REDEFINE frivolous (although, yes, the judges should kick more of these out) From an overweight prisoner protesting that hanging would be too cruel a punishment for his fat ass, to prisoners suing because they didn't get a big enough slice of cake (Make all the queer-jokes you want here) at the prison cafeteria, WHY ARE WE CODDLING THESE SCUM?
We could use them as "free" labor, and/or as a source of "free" organs...
And if the former, that would help wean America off our alleged dependence on Mexico (What DID we do before we had those drug-dealing scum--too lazy to learn our language--to do the "jobs Americans don't want"?)
If the latter, that would really shorten the waiting list for organs, and give our honest people a second chance, rather than wasting MILLIONS keeping criminals alive--sometimes just so that "the System" can execute them (That in particular has always confused me--keep it alive so you can kill it?!)

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RE: America has more people in jail... - 9/25/2007 4:36:54 AM   
Termyn8or


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Status: offline 		Notice I have been quiet :-)

I had a look at that Christianwhatever site, if you scroll down there is a chart of average math scores. Only three countries scored lower than the US.

One word on this war on drugs; it is unlawful.  It's also all a money game. The government is at least complicit in importing drugs. They give lip service to these negotiations with drug producing countries.

Now one thing I cannot say for sure, but there is evidence that there are alot more innocent people in jail than most people think. The government taxes us to provide prisons and they tax us to provide law enforcment. How do you maxinize profit playing such a game ?

First of all you write as many laws as possible. They do not expire, and we are to the point where no roomful of people could ever read them all. Then you enforce them selectively of course.

But let's say you have a real crime with a real victim. As an investigator you make the decision who did it in about five seconds flat. Then you build a case. Then the judge and prosecutor simply suppress any evidence that would exonerate your target. If you're lucky, you can have an innocent person in prison and the real culprit free, able to commit more crime. It is a win win. You need more money to fight crime, and you need more money to keep people locked up.

Now is all this true ? You be the judge. You see a prosecutor slapped on the wrist once in a while for knowingly suppressing evidence or not properly complying with discovery. As with anyone else, do you think it's the first time he ever did it ?

We are in big trouble here.

T

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RE: America has more people in jail... - 9/25/2007 5:00:09 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: EPGAH

If the latter, that would really shorten the waiting list for organs, and give our honest people a second chance, rather than wasting MILLIONS keeping criminals alive--sometimes just so that "the System" can execute them (That in particular has always confused me--keep it alive so you can kill it?!)


That just shows what a fucked up system you have.

The US has more crime and more criminals than any other developed nation. You law and order types really need to get your heads out of the concrete and ask yourself why!

You know, it really isn't hard to think rationally. I know asking politicians to think rationally is like rubbing a lamp and expecting a genie to pop out but ordinary people have the luxury of not having to kow tow to the feeble minds of the media.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

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RE: America has more people in jail... - 9/25/2007 5:06:45 AM   
Bobkgin


Posts: 1335
Joined: 7/28/2007
From: Kawarthas, Ontario, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: EPGAH

... WHY ARE WE CODDLING THESE SCUM?
We could use them as "free" labor, and/or as a source of "free" organs...
And if the former, that would help wean America off our alleged dependence on Mexico (What DID we do before we had those drug-dealing scum--too lazy to learn our language--to do the "jobs Americans don't want"?)
If the latter, that would really shorten the waiting list for organs, and give our honest people a second chance, rather than wasting MILLIONS keeping criminals alive--sometimes just so that "the System" can execute them (That in particular has always confused me--keep it alive so you can kill it?!)


And they say Fascism is dead.

_____________________________

When all is said and done, what will you regret?

That you never really lived?

Or there was so much living left to do?

For those interested: pics and poetry have been added to my profile.

(in reply to EPGAH)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: America has more people in jail... - 9/25/2007 5:19:38 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

quote:

ORIGINAL: EPGAH

... WHY ARE WE CODDLING THESE SCUM?
We could use them as "free" labor, and/or as a source of "free" organs...
And if the former, that would help wean America off our alleged dependence on Mexico (What DID we do before we had those drug-dealing scum--too lazy to learn our language--to do the "jobs Americans don't want"?)
If the latter, that would really shorten the waiting list for organs, and give our honest people a second chance, rather than wasting MILLIONS keeping criminals alive--sometimes just so that "the System" can execute them (That in particular has always confused me--keep it alive so you can kill it?!)


And they say Fascism is dead.


He's not a fascist, he just hates Mexicans and wants a final solution to the problem.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 9/25/2007 5:20:03 AM >

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

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RE: America has more people in jail... - 9/25/2007 5:19:49 AM   
Politesub53


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Joined: 5/7/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

Here our Senate finally agreed marijuana should be legalized (which will never happen because America would close the border)



Western Europe has started to see a massive rise in the numbers of people with mental problems due to smoking canabis. I would have thought your wonderful government would take this into account.

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RE: America has more people in jail... - 9/25/2007 5:26:06 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

Here our Senate finally agreed marijuana should be legalized (which will never happen because America would close the border)



Western Europe has started to see a massive rise in the numbers of people with mental problems due to smoking canabis. I would have thought your wonderful government would take this into account.


Holland has had legal access to canabis for decades and I haven't heard anything mentioned here about the rise in mental illness due to it. There are five coffeeshops within five minutes walk of my front door and I've never had any problems with any of their clients. Come to think of it, I've got three brothels withing the same walk time and never had any problem with their clients either.

I'm not saying that there are no problems arising from either activity but none that makes a direct or indirect impact on the immediate area so I can't see the point of locking anyone up for either, unless there are big bosses behind the scenes exploiting people. Now they I would lock up.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

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Profile   Post #: 32
RE: America has more people in jail... - 9/25/2007 5:46:50 AM   
ChicagoSwitchMal


Posts: 417
Joined: 9/9/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: EPGAH

What's wrong with "forcing" criminals to work? They get "free" shelter, "free" medical care (Better than most HONEST peoples' insurance-programs/HMOs), "free" cable-TV, and "free" exercise rooms (Complete with free-weights that could be used as weapons against their guards, who have progressively less authority and leeway on ways to keep them in line.
OH! And "free" legal aid while in prison, so they can deluge the court-system with lawsuits that REDEFINE frivolous (although, yes, the judges should kick more of these out) From an overweight prisoner protesting that hanging would be too cruel a punishment for his fat ass, to prisoners suing because they didn't get a big enough slice of cake (Make all the queer-jokes you want here) at the prison cafeteria, WHY ARE WE CODDLING THESE SCUM?
We could use them as "free" labor, and/or as a source of "free" organs...
And if the former, that would help wean America off our alleged dependence on Mexico (What DID we do before we had those drug-dealing scum--too lazy to learn our language--to do the "jobs Americans don't want"?)
If the latter, that would really shorten the waiting list for organs, and give our honest people a second chance, rather than wasting MILLIONS keeping criminals alive--sometimes just so that "the System" can execute them (That in particular has always confused me--keep it alive so you can kill it?!)


I don't have a problem with prisoneers being forced to work. In fact the 13th ammendment which abolished slavery allows for it.

"Section 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction."

But I have a problem with accidentally creating a market for prison labor. If things go bad with the enconomy who's to say the answer won't be to arrest more people for the 'free' labor? We like to think society has progressed and 'it can't happen' here but I am going to rely more on the attage that history tends to repeat itself.

Let prisoneers clean up the highway... pick up garbage in the park... whatever. But when they start working for Dell or what not we are on a very slippery slope.

< Message edited by ChicagoSwitchMal -- 9/25/2007 5:48:24 AM >

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RE: America has more people in jail... - 9/25/2007 6:41:13 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MsBearlee
What do you think this says about us?

Is points to the fact that the US also has more lawyers per capita than any other county. They have to feed the industry. They do so by making sure the puritanical laws stay on the books, are enforced, and lengthier sentences imposed; targeting the poor, weak, and unrepresented; preying on both the "god fearing" fools who wish their ancestral puritanical laws and penalties were still in place, and the "intent" versus result motivated social engineers.

Fed by both the liberal and conservative radicals who, without a natural plurality, use fear and exceptional example to create laws which restrict personal freedom of choice while presenting more opportunity for incarceration. The lawyers PAC, otherwise know as Congress, feeds both sectors of the legal industry; criminal and civil litigation. The rhetoric of fear makes the sheep rationalize they are being served by the lawyer/legislators leading them to slaughter. The use of race, poverty, education, provide smoke screens for the goal of feeding the legal industry. Justice isn't the goal, the diversion of money into the pockets of the ever growing pool of practicing attorneys requires more laws, more enforcement generating more incarceration.

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RE: America has more people in jail... - 9/25/2007 6:43:08 AM   
SugarMyChurro


Posts: 1912
Joined: 4/26/2007
Status: offline 		ChicagoSwitchMal:

It's a for profit enterprise now and has been for decades. Unicor competes with unionized labor and is far cheaper.

Slippery slope? It's over.

We are circling the drain already...

(in reply to ChicagoSwitchMal)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: America has more people in jail... - 9/25/2007 6:46:40 AM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline 		Everybody knows you Americans are a wild lot. You've only got to watch those cop/mad driver programmes or America's dumbest criminals or see a grown man trying to ride a Bullock with a rope tied tight around its bollocks, the Bullocks's, I mean to realise that. NO?

Seriously a more civilised attitude to "drugs" would help, both in the UK and the US. I used to believe that a lack of Wefare provision, in the European sense is a factor but in the UK we spend ever increasing amounts on Welfare and still crime rises remorselessly.

Just noticed NG is still spouting his extreme left wing dogmas.
Underclass dont have any opportunity
We dont spend enough on education things like that when the facts are directly to the contrary.
.I got the impression NG was beginning to see the light at one point but it seems I made one of my rare mistakes. lol

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 9/25/2007 6:55:55 AM >

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RE: America has more people in jail... - 9/25/2007 6:58:57 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

Seriously a more civilised attitude to "drugs" would help, both in the UK and the US. I used to believe that a lack of Wefare provision, in the European sense is a factor but in the UK we spend ever increasing amounts on Welfare and still crime rises remorselessly.


If the UK had a more rational approach to drugs and other crimes, the increase in social spending would be more effective. The problem with the way things are run now, is that the idiotic irrational approach to crime in the jusrtice system neutralizes the increased social spending.

I remember Blair saying that he was going to have joined up government to stop such nonsense but he only increased the nonsense and ended up wasting more money.

I've got a damn duel keyboard so I have to keep correcting myself!

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 9/25/2007 7:00:54 AM >

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

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RE: America has more people in jail... - 9/25/2007 7:11:57 AM   
domiguy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

That's not the point. We consider ourselves a free country but it seems you can't do anything in this country anymore without being questioned or watched or criticized. Police are tasering people left and right. The government is scaring the population with terrorism every single day. And we do not have freedom of speech.

We are NOT a free country....


Who stole cyberdude and replaced him with this "liberal" replicant....I demand explanations!!!  I feel the meddlings of Modd11 in all of this.

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RE: America has more people in jail... - 9/25/2007 7:26:33 AM   
ChicagoSwitchMal


Posts: 417
Joined: 9/9/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro

ChicagoSwitchMal:

It's a for profit enterprise now and has been for decades. Unicor competes with unionized labor and is far cheaper.

Slippery slope? It's over.

We are circling the drain already...


I gathered that from the thread. Thanks though. Just saying there's a difference to me.

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Profile   Post #: 39
RE: America has more people in jail... - 9/25/2007 7:51:03 AM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MsBearlee

So, Ted Koppel's new show (to be aired Sunday, I think) says we have more people in jail than does any other country.

What do you think this says about us?


That our prison-industrial complex is the biggestest and bestestest in the whole wiiiiiiide world (until the Chinese stop that wasteful 'one trial, one bullet' stuff).

(in reply to MsBearlee)
Profile   Post #: 40
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