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RE: Safe punishment. - 9/27/2007 3:29:02 AM

camille65

Posts: 5746
Joined: 7/11/2007
From: Austin Texas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: catize
Yes, I do.
In general, too little credit is given to submissives for their ability to be self-disciplined. My motivation is not external (punishment) but is internal. It is my obligation to conduct myself in the manner that has been discussed and agreed upon.

Oh I am so glad you said this! I keep reading all these threads on punishment. How to punish, when to punish etc. In the near 8 years R has owned me I have never required punishment.
Sure I make mistakes and forget things but those are not intentional doings.
If I intentionally did things wrong or against his wishes then why on earth would I want to even be his to begin with? Oh this whole thing utterly confuses me! I try my best in everything, if I fail we discuss why it happened and how to not fail in the future.
I am an adult. I don't act out or refuse to do things and I guess I don't understand why so many seem to be using punishment as a frequent occurance.

_____________________________

~Love your life! (It is the only one you'll get).

(in reply to catize)

Post #: 61

RE: Safe punishment. - 9/27/2007 3:44:45 AM

bandit25

Posts: 3029
Joined: 6/18/2005
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That's exactly how I feel. I read so many threads on punishment, it makes me nuts. If I'm not submitting, then something is wrong. And all the punishment in the world (well, not really) isn't going to make it right. At that point, we need to sit down and discuss what the hell is happening. I don't do brat.

(in reply to camille65)

Post #: 62

RE: Safe punishment. - 9/27/2007 4:02:19 AM

gypsygrl

Posts: 1471
Joined: 10/8/2005
From: new york state
Status: offline

Neither of us are big into punishment. There's a couple things that I know will result in punishment if I do them again but I feel very committed to not doing them again. He's laid down some other rules and I suspect He'll punish me if I break them. I don't want to test him on this, so I make sure it doesn't happen. I know he doesn't want to punish me and I don't want to put him in a position of doing something he doesn't want to do.

We also use safewords. I find myself using them when I've lost my connection to him and start panicking. Generally, funky shit's starting to happen in my head, and I need to stop it. Its not the sort of stuff he's gonna be privy to unless I clue him in.

So, thats where we're at vis a vis safe words and punishment.

The only reason I'm posting here is that recently we did a session that quite spontaneously resulted in a "play punishment." He has a great sense of humor, and incorporates that into our sessions which gets me going and we have a lot of fun bantering back and forth (when he doesn't have me totally out of it, lost in space). In the heat of the moment, I said something quite disrespectful (I told him "fuck you") and he proceeded to "punish" me by giving me two good hard swats on the butt for each letter in the words "fuck you." They hurt really bad (I have a low tolerance for butt swatting) and, though I knew cognitively that he wasn't really offended, on another emotional level I felt as if I had done something wrong. Even though the swattings really hurt--in part because I had into a regular head space--and I desparately wanted to appologize, and part of me understood the punishment wasn't 'real,' I took it without staying anything. But, as soon as he was finished, I immediately safeworded, beginning with yellow then changing to red because I knew I had to talk to him so I could get some reassurance that he wasn't offended and I hadn't crossed any lines.

I find it really interesting that, as much as I wanted to safeword in the middle of the 'punishment' and this for so many 'good' reasons, I still waited until after it was over to get clear in my head what was happening, knowing that there's something inappropriate about safewording in the middle of a punishment. So, I suspect that if he were ever to really see fit to punish me, safewording wouldn't be an option.

_____________________________

“To be happy is to be able to become aware of oneself without fright.” ~Walter Benjamin

(in reply to missturbation)

Post #: 63

RE: Safe punishment. - 9/27/2007 4:03:54 AM

Bobkgin

Posts: 1335
Joined: 7/28/2007
From: Kawarthas, Ontario, Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: catize

quote:

Cat, do you take your responsibilities as seriously if punishment is not an option?

Yes, I do.
In general, too little credit is given to submissives for their ability to be self-disciplined. My motivation is not external (punishment) but is internal. It is my obligation to conduct myself in the manner that has been discussed and agreed upon.

I'm in agreement with you.

And that leads to my follow-up: why would you submit to a d/m who believes in and uses punishment?

< Message edited by Bobkgin -- 9/27/2007 4:04:53 AM >

_____________________________

When all is said and done, what will you regret?

That you never really lived?

Or there was so much living left to do?

For those interested: pics and poetry have been added to my profile.

(in reply to catize)

Post #: 64

RE: Safe punishment. - 9/27/2007 4:07:55 AM

bandit25

Posts: 3029
Joined: 6/18/2005
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If one takes her responsibilities seriously, then there's nothing to punish. If the dom punishes just because he likes to punish, then I'd say he needs to examine his motives or simply just state up front that he's into inflicting pain. One who punishes mistakes surely wouldn't be for me.

< Message edited by bandit25 -- 9/27/2007 4:11:34 AM >

(in reply to Bobkgin)

Post #: 65

RE: Safe punishment. - 9/27/2007 4:15:47 AM

Bobkgin

Posts: 1335
Joined: 7/28/2007
From: Kawarthas, Ontario, Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: bandit25

If one takes her responsibilities seriously, then there's nothing to punish. If the dom punishes just because he likes to punish, then I'd say he needs to examine his motives or simply just state up front the he's into inflicting pain.

I agree.

But it seems to me that whether punishment is dolled out or not, there is a mind set in place amongst those willing to punish that says a submissive will perform better under the threat of punishment.

I don't subscribe to that belief (I swear I get more out of a slave through Love than through Fear of punishment).

But Cat has indicated she would submit to a d/m who believes in punishment even tho' she does not believe in it. To me that gives tacit approval to the theory behind punishment.

Not trying to speak for Cat here, just laying out the basis for my question.

_____________________________

When all is said and done, what will you regret?

That you never really lived?

Or there was so much living left to do?

For those interested: pics and poetry have been added to my profile.

(in reply to bandit25)

Post #: 66

RE: Safe punishment. - 9/27/2007 4:20:18 AM

bandit25

Posts: 3029
Joined: 6/18/2005
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Perhaps, we're splitting hairs here, but if there's nothing to punish, then there's nothing to punish. I guess my point is...is he really punishing an "infraction" or is he simply using a mistake as an opportunity to act out his sadistic desires?

(in reply to Bobkgin)

Post #: 67

RE: Safe punishment. - 9/27/2007 4:25:16 AM

Bobkgin

Posts: 1335
Joined: 7/28/2007
From: Kawarthas, Ontario, Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: bandit25

Perhaps, we're splitting hairs here, but if there's nothing to punish, then there's nothing to punish. I guess my point is...is he really punishing an "infraction" or is he simply using a mistake as an opportunity to act out his sadistic desires?

As I don't believe in punishment, I don't really see a difference between an "infraction" and an "excuse for sadism".

They both seem to be a way of loading any guilt the d/m is feeling about being sadistic on the back of the submissive.

It's like saying "you've made me angry" when the truth is I choose whether I will respond with anger or something else to whatever is done to me or around me.

Do you see where I am going with this? It's akin to abusive husbands who blame the beatings on their wives' behaviour.

_____________________________

When all is said and done, what will you regret?

That you never really lived?

Or there was so much living left to do?

For those interested: pics and poetry have been added to my profile.

(in reply to bandit25)

Post #: 68

RE: Safe punishment. - 9/27/2007 5:14:55 AM

catize

Posts: 3020
Joined: 3/7/2006
Status: offline

quote:

And that leads to my follow-up: why would you submit to a d/m who believes in and uses punishment?

Allow me to liken it to employment. I understand the rules of the work place. I am clear what my job responsibilities are as well as the amount of work required, how to request time off, proper clothing for that environment, etc. I have no doubt that my employer would be willing to ‘punish’ me by docking my pay or firing me if I did not follow the rules or fulfill my duties. Barring circumstances beyond my control, I don’t worry about losing my job because I am motivated by my work ethic.
Some dominants don’t enjoy meting out punishment. They may have used it in the past but much prefer a dynamic where it won’t be necessary.

_____________________________

"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise

(in reply to Bobkgin)

Post #: 69

RE: Safe punishment. - 9/27/2007 5:33:03 AM

catize

Posts: 3020
Joined: 3/7/2006
Status: offline

quote:

Oh I am so glad you said this! I keep reading all these threads on punishment. How to punish, when to punish etc. In the near 8 years R has owned me I have never required punishment.

I, too, weary of the incredible number of punishment threads. If it is a relationship based on respect and communication, why do so many turn to negative reinforcement as a means to deal with a problem?

_____________________________

"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise

(in reply to camille65)

Post #: 70

RE: Safe punishment. - 9/27/2007 5:58:14 AM

spankmepink11

Posts: 1310
Joined: 9/28/2005
Status: offline

Erin, Camille, and Catize pretty much covered my feelings/opinions on the subject of punishment.

But I am curious...about what behaviors dominants consider to be punishable offenses.

< Message edited by spankmepink11 -- 9/27/2007 5:59:36 AM >

(in reply to catize)

Post #: 71

RE: Safe punishment. - 9/27/2007 6:17:28 AM

Bobkgin

Posts: 1335
Joined: 7/28/2007
From: Kawarthas, Ontario, Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: spankmepink11

Erin, Camille, and Catize pretty much covered my feelings/opinions on the subject of punishment.

But I am curious...about what behaviors dominants consider to be punishable offenses.

and I'd like to see how they justify the concept of punishment.

_____________________________

When all is said and done, what will you regret?

That you never really lived?

Or there was so much living left to do?

For those interested: pics and poetry have been added to my profile.

(in reply to spankmepink11)

Post #: 72

RE: Safe punishment. - 9/27/2007 2:41:57 PM

Focus50

Posts: 3962
Joined: 12/28/2004
From: Newcastle, Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

and I'd like to see how they justify the concept of punishment.

Justify it to who, outsiders like yourself? LOL, get over yourself!

Focus.

(in reply to Bobkgin)

Post #: 73

RE: Safe punishment. - 9/27/2007 2:59:44 PM

Bobkgin

Posts: 1335
Joined: 7/28/2007
From: Kawarthas, Ontario, Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Focus50

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

and I'd like to see how they justify the concept of punishment.

Justify it to who

To themselves.

_____________________________

When all is said and done, what will you regret?

That you never really lived?

Or there was so much living left to do?

For those interested: pics and poetry have been added to my profile.

(in reply to Focus50)

Post #: 74

RE: Safe punishment. - 9/27/2007 3:21:44 PM

LeatherBentOne

Posts: 469
Joined: 9/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

Curiosity has hold of me again
This thread stems a little from all the safe word threads recently and my own trust and use of safe words / limits thread. I was discussing these threads with someone recently and the question of using a safe word when being punished came up!
For me punishment is very different from play. I do not in any way enjoy punishment or the pain from it but know it is necessary in the dynamic Sir and i have. I will say though that after punishment i get an extreme feeling of relief that i have paid for my mistakes.
So for those of you out there who use a safe word in play and are punished, are you still allowed to use your safe word when being punished?
If so why?
If not why not?
Thank you in advance.

I'll describe what I do and you tell me if "punishment" is an apt description.

If my slave has refused to behave as a slave, without good cause, then I pull back and refuse to act as a master until such time as the slave acknowledges her error and asks me to re-assume control.

Simply put, refusal to accept the responsibilities she assumed upon entering the relationship is a betrayal of trust: a signal that she does not want me to be her master.

It may have been a momentary lapse into selfishness, or it may be more. But rather than assume the best interpretation, I assume it is a challenge to my authority.

As I have no authority without her willing cooperation, I do not pretend to have authority when her behaviour tells me I have none over her.

So I withdraw, and wait.

This leads to some serious discussions about the nature of our relationship, her interest in it, and the future. She has to convince me that this was a mistake she regrets and has no intention of repeating before I will don the mantle of her master.

I've found this approach works quite well at resolving problems. It makes the slave aware of her responsibilities to me and the relationship, and teaches her that betrayal of trust has consequences.

Should I call this "punishment"?

I agree with your point of view. I see conscious disobedience as a withdrawal of consent to be dominated. This happened with my last submissive. Unfortunately, she never did "get it" so the relationship came to an end after several attempts to explain this to her. She grew less and less submissive, therefore I was forced to move further and further away, until I moved right out the front door.

I regretted to see this happen, but had I compromised myself, it was clear to me that she would attempt to manipulate the situation. I decided I couldnt allow this to happen. I was deeply hurt by my decision in that I had spent much time and energy molding the relationship only to find out that by her actions, she wasnt really sincere about serving me, once she realised that I held firm to my convictions.

So yes.............punishment isnt always safe. You can find things about your submissive you really didnt want to know, and be forced to make many difficult decisions.

(in reply to Bobkgin)

Post #: 75

RE: Safe punishment. - 9/27/2007 4:21:30 PM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline

Focus- justify my love :)

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to LeatherBentOne)

Post #: 76

RE: Safe punishment. - 9/27/2007 5:47:41 PM

amelliagrace

Posts: 1792
Joined: 8/4/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: camille65

Oh I am so glad you said this! I keep reading all these threads on punishment. How to punish, when to punish etc. In the near 8 years R has owned me I have never required punishment.
Sure I make mistakes and forget things but those are not intentional doings.
If I intentionally did things wrong or against his wishes then why on earth would I want to even be his to begin with? Oh this whole thing utterly confuses me! I try my best in everything, if I fail we discuss why it happened and how to not fail in the future.
I am an adult. I don't act out or refuse to do things and I guess I don't understand why so many seem to be using punishment as a frequent occurance.

I can't comprehend it, either.

-grace

(in reply to camille65)

Post #: 77

RE: Safe punishment. - 9/27/2007 6:24:29 PM

xoxi

Posts: 1066
Status: offline

~Fast Reply~

I like what someone else said...I forgot who...but whoever asked why only 'submissives' are in need of punishment and guidance and what happens if a dominant fucks up. I'm going to seriously be wondering this for awhile now and probably annoy some of the people who message me on the other side. Considering I go through about 10 'potential partner' (at least on their end lol) email exchanges a week it should be interesting.

And Bob...I think you're taking this a bit too seriously. If you were laying in bed with your girl and you both just woke up, and you said 'go make me some coffee' and she said 'noooo I'm tired' would you honestly reply with "ok I'm breaking up with you" instead of swatting her butt and saying "do it dear"?

(in reply to amelliagrace)

Post #: 78

RE: Safe punishment. - 9/27/2007 7:29:28 PM

Aswad

Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

Curiosity has hold of me again

I hope you're not a cat.

quote:

I will say though that after punishment i get an extreme feeling of relief that i have paid for my mistakes.

The Catholics had a point: actions speak louder than words, and a ritual of forgiveness meets a need. For some, punishment or penance is needed for such a ritual. For others, not so much. A tangent of something NefertariReborn mentioned is that one could even use w/s for such a ritual, as a means of "washing away 'sins'". It depends on what you're able to invest the ritual with, in your own mind. Some need to "pay" via pain to feel free.

As for safewords, I'd say it works, provided the paradigm is the one I have mentioned earlier: one monosyllabic word to denote a medical emergency, and another to denote that something needs to be checked on or that a pause is requested. If the person then develops a tendency to abuse these safewords, that must be dealt with, of course. One imagines there are more effective ways than those that require safewords, though...

Health,
al-Aswad

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to missturbation)

Post #: 79

RE: Safe punishment. - 9/27/2007 7:41:01 PM

Aswad

Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: camille65

Sure I make mistakes and forget things but those are not intentional doings.

For some of us, modifying the behaviour is the intent, not actual punishment or redress.

And behavioural modification with both positive and negative reinforcement tends to work well for unintentional errors, provided one has the ability to avoid them, with enough effort. Delivering an unexpectedly harsh response soon after an undesired action hits the primal learning centres of the brain. Hard. Similar things can be done for positive responses.

It depends on what the parties want out of it, I'd imagine.

For me, I couldn't care less about redress. It's happened. It's done. However, this may still not be the case for the sub/slave, who may be left without a sense of closure, and with negative feelings about having "failed" or whatever. In those cases, a punishment can be catharctic, and can help them find closure and move past it. Anyone who would benefit from punishment in such a way can expect that in my care, for their own good.

(Kind of like how the cat hates being taken to the vet, but trusts us to care for it, and we do.)

I do, however, care about behavioural modification. It's negotiable, of course, but some people find that it can enable them to go further than "mere" self-discipline allows. It isn't something I would require, but I would expect the desired results, and discuss how they may be brought about. A behavioural modification strategy based in cognitive science, using positive and negative reinforcement, is my preferred solution to that. KISS, etc.

In conclusion, I share your confusion about the prevalence of punishment, and expect many use it for the wrong reasons, just like the "justice" system tends to do. I happen to come from a country that espouses rehabilitation over punishment, and my thinking may be influenced by this. Vengeance is not something I'm immune to, but it's not something I would want to visit on someone I care about, or someone in my care.

HTH...

Edit: Punishment can also be useful during the initial phase, if the sub/slave is committed but not yet self-driven, as an aid in moving them toward the goal they have set for themselves. That also has nothing to do with redress, but simply serves as a way to share the burden of submission, so to speak. Pulling the load in the same direction. In such cases, I would think it's a good idea to ease off on it after a while.

Health,
al-Aswad.

< Message edited by Aswad -- 9/27/2007 7:47:16 PM >

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to camille65)

Post #: 80

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