Punishment: What to punish for and how brutal? (Full Version)

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SubmissiveLion -> Punishment: What to punish for and how brutal? (9/26/2007 6:58:06 PM)

I just wanted to know from everyone, what they punish for and how brutal do they become?

Personally speaking.  There are different levels. and types.

If my sub doesn't send me her daily picture or call me when I ask, I stop talking to her and implement a no contact rule till she has begged me for forgiveness to my liking.  Some people would think its lax, but if your a Dominant, then you don't need the contact, while a sub most likely needs the Master to give them attention.  You would be suprised at how fast you can keep a Sub in line with that.

Something more, like disobeying a direct order...and not just any order, one you call out and explain that it is a large transgression, well then you need to have a threat of something they don't like.  Its the credible threat that counts.

For instance, my Sub hates the butt plug, so I keep one around, and display it when she has done very badly.  I haven't ever had to put it in all the way, because she knows it hurts...and this keeps her in line.

Punishment should be a credible threat to the Sub, and they should believe that you will use it.

For example, my Sub disobeyed me and did something that I told her was a hot button.  So for punishment, I tied her up , blindfolded her, greased her anus up and started to use the plug.  She started to cry, and beg me for forgiveness.  So I pushed the limit a little bit, told her to hold on cause I was going all the way with it, it was going to hurt.  Then just as I started to push I stopped.  Why you may ask?  Cause the threat it credible, and she believed I was going to do it.  Perception is part of the punishment.  I untied her, held her close, and told her do you ever want me to do that again?  She said no...and that brought her right back into line.

So to conclude, and not be longwinded(er too late).  Punishment for me consists of:
1.  The threat
2.  The use of that threat
3.  The understanding the sub has that you don't like doing it, and you want her/him to understand that their actions are making you do something yo don't want to do.

What do you all think?



AquaticSub -> RE: Punishment: What to punish for and how brutal? (9/26/2007 7:04:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SubmissiveLion
If my sub doesn't send me her daily picture or call me when I ask, I stop talking to her and implement a no contact rule till she has begged me for forgiveness to my liking.  Some people would think its lax, but if your a Dominant, then you don't need the contact, while a sub most likely needs the Master to give them attention.  You would be suprised at how fast you can keep a Sub in line with that.

By our line of thinking it is too harsh. We don't believe in withdrawing contact for anything but the highest of offenses. No problem gets sorted out by lack of discussion.
quote:


Something more, like disobeying a direct order...and not just any order, one you call out and explain that it is a large transgression, well then you need to have a threat of something they don't like.  Its the credible threat that counts.

Generally Valyraen doesn't threaten me. Certainly he never involves a type of play I dislike in punishment. He has told me that if I buy the wrong type of cereal again, it will be all I am eating until the box is gone. I suppose that counts as a threat.
quote:


For instance, my Sub hates the butt plug, so I keep one around, and display it when she has done very badly.  I haven't ever had to put it in all the way, because she knows it hurts...and this keeps her in line.

Eh... we just don't find that sort of punishment to be effective. It turns me on more than anything else and if it doesn't, it sends me into a bad headspace that he doesn't want.
quote:


Punishment should be a credible threat to the Sub, and they should believe that you will use it.

For example, my Sub disobeyed me and did something that I told her was a hot button.  So for punishment, I tied her up , blindfolded her, greased her anus up and started to use the plug.  She started to cry, and beg me for forgiveness.  So I pushed the limit a little bit, told her to hold on cause I was going all the way with it, it was going to hurt.  Then just as I started to push I stopped.  Why you may ask?  Cause the threat it credible, and she believed I was going to do it.  Perception is part of the punishment.  I untied her, held her close, and told her do you ever want me to do that again?  She said no...and that brought her right back into line.

So to conclude, and not be longwinded(er too late).  Punishment for me consists of:
1.  The threat
2.  The use of that threat
3.  The understanding the sub has that you don't like doing it, and you want her/him to understand that their actions are making you do something yo don't want to do.

What do you all think?

I think if it works for you great.

Valyraen would never mind fuck me like that for punishment. Which is good because that sort of punishment would probably destroy a great deal of the trust I have in him.

But it works for you and that is what counts.



TemptingNviceSub -> RE: Punishment: What to punish for and how brutal? (9/26/2007 7:10:39 PM)

I guess, the way I feel is, let the punishment fit the crime..first off, if a submissive needs to be punished with any frequency, I begin to wonder if possibly the Dominant may be setting sub up for punishment scenerio because this is his desire, or he may be lacking in good communication skills,so rather than punish at first, find out where subs head is at and why the failures occur, then look to yourself, the Dominant ,for her failures become yours as well. As for the no contact rule..for such minor infractions..humm...each time you instigate such a severe rule, it tends to lose its effect as time goes on..you should be careful of this..It could be used by the submissive to get a break from you.~bet you did not think of that..:0)~So hence to wrap this up..let the punishment fit the crime, do not be predictable with your punishments,good communication,and look to yourself as well...Tempting



Celeste43 -> RE: Punishment: What to punish for and how brutal? (9/26/2007 7:14:40 PM)

Ah, domming by the numbers.

Around here, punishment is not the objective. Communication is.

As far as that comment that doms don't need contact, speak for yourself. You might be surprised how many dominant people there are who are also loving and committed and who cherish contact with those they love.

Oh yes, the daily wanking picture. I imagine she enjoyed having a week off.



iammachine -> RE: Punishment: What to punish for and how brutal? (9/26/2007 7:29:54 PM)

quote:

Some people would think its lax, but if your a Dominant, then you don't need the contact, while a sub most likely needs the Master to give them attention.


I'd have to disagree with this statement. By my standards, I don't see lack of communication resolving much of anything. I also enjoy interacting with another person as much as anyone - regardless of D/s lines.

I'm a sadist, therefore I relate physical acts to happy fun times. I, personally, don't enjoy relating things I enjoy ("punishment") with things that I do not like (failures); unless it is a play trangression met with a fun punishment (oh you've been a naughty girl! go to my room!). It just kind of screws with my own personal equilibrium.

Failures, misunderstandings, shortcomings or any number of bad juju inducing sitations to me, are a learning experience ("another fucking opportunity for growth"). They say just as much about me, my tactics and communication as they do my submissive's. As such, I am much more apt to sit down and talk with the person, and perhaps have them write an essay about what happened, and how it can be avoided in the future. Writing, especially to someone that doesn't care for it, may be seen as a punishment. I just see it as dealing with a situation in as constructive a way as I can think of.

As always: IMO, YMMV



amelliagrace -> RE: Punishment: What to punish for and how brutal? (9/26/2007 7:33:40 PM)

Speaking as a person, such negative forms of "correction" are, IMO, counter productive and deafeating to a relationship in the long run.
 
As a submissive, I'd say that the harshest of all punishments is withdrawl of contact.  Used more than a very few times in a long term relationship, or more than once in a younger one, it can either become kill the relationship,  or become completely ineffective due to overuse.  A little goes a LOOONNNNGGGGGG way with that one.
 
Perhaps I'm wrong, but it certainly sounds as though you place a lot of emphasis on punishment.  If you are having to do much correction at all, it is indicative of serious problems in the relationship.  Submissives by nature desire to please, and unless a Dominant is completely off the wall unrealistic with their rules, there just shouldn't be all that much to correct.  If there is, then usually one of the following is the underlying cause:
1.  Lack of adequate communication between Dominant and submissive.
2.  Submissive acting out due to basic needs not being met.
3.  The Dominant and submissive being a poor match for each other.
4.  Lack of respect between the parties.
5.  Inconsistancy in the relationship.
6.  Unrealistic rules.
7.  Submissive with a terminally poor attitude.
 
JMNSH subbie opinion-
 
grace



amelliagrace -> RE: Punishment: What to punish for and how brutal? (9/26/2007 7:38:44 PM)


Valyraen would never mind fuck me like that for punishment. Which is good because that sort of punishment would probably destroy a great deal of the trust I have in him.

But it works for you and that is what counts.
[/quote]

The same here.  It would destroy it quickly, and just about completely.
 
-grace



nyrisa -> RE: Punishment: What to punish for and how brutal? (9/26/2007 7:43:37 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SubmissiveLion


3.  The understanding the sub has that you don't like doing it, and you want her/him to understand that their actions are making you do something yo don't want to do.

What do you all think?



Is it just me, or does that sound like the sub is driving the cart, there? I thought the lesson to learn was that actions have consequences, either good or bad. If I can force a Dom to do something he doesn't want to do, I must be in control, right? Either that, or you want to hurt her with the butt plug anyway, and rather than accept this sadistic desire, you'd rather place the blame on her.

Aside from all that, anything that was ever used on me as punishment would very quickly become surrounded by negative emotions, and would never be a type of play that I could enjoy. So, anal play would never be for pleasure, and would always be something that would make me flinch.



TNstepsout -> RE: Punishment: What to punish for and how brutal? (9/26/2007 8:23:09 PM)

Personally I don't believe in punishment. I think if there is discipline there is no need for punishment. Everyone makes mistakes and if it's a simple oversight or error that's understandable. Unless it's something that happens a lot, in which case I would question whether the sub had the ability to do what is being asked. It might have been an issue of miscommunication, in which case you need discussion to determine where the problem ocurred so it can be avoided in the future. After all, it might be you.  If it was a flat out defiant break of a rule, that's a more serious issue. That goes to the core of the agreement between the two of you and you need a serious discussion. Either s/he is not ready to meet the commitment or has a real core problem with a rule that was set. You might decide the rule isn't that important to you and eliminate it. Or you might decide it's critical and the two of you are incompatible.

Either way I think punishment only solves the problem temporarily because it doesn't address the reasons for the disobedience.



probablyknowme -> RE: Punishment: What to punish for and how brutal? (9/26/2007 8:56:18 PM)

I just want to interject here that in a D/s relationship, I know that I personally respond better to a reward system rather that a infraction/punishment one. (If i follow a set of instructions, i get X, if not no X for me.) And I agree with some of the earlier replies, in that if I am being punished repeatedly for not following  instructions, you can pretty much bet that I am acting out on purpose either to find a way out of a relatioship that isn't working, or I am liking the "punishment" enough to want it again and again. So, I would take a look at my relationship, and both parties motivations.

kat



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Punishment: What to punish for and how brutal? (9/26/2007 9:02:49 PM)

Reposted:
IMO the most effective punishments are rare, quick, and direct.

The point at which I decide to give a punishment can take a good long while.  I need to assess what happened, we need to talk about what happened, I need to assess their mental and emotional state at the time and currently and I need to reconfigure my training style and processes to accommodate this.

Someone disobeying to the point of punishment means there's something already going wrong in the program.  I need to get to THAT before punishment will be effective.

Once I get to the point of punishment, I clearly explain what it is, make sure they completely understand and agree to the punishment, immediately put it into effect and then it's done.

I have to admit I'm often stunned to hear of people making elaborate punishments and wondering what on earth it has to do with whatever behavior they are attempting to change?  Life is too short, punishment is a dismal enough affair that makes me doubt, revise, re-plan and do a lot of clean up already.  Why make the actual punishment any longer than absolutely necessary?

http://www.collarchat.com/m_800482/mpage_1/key_punishment/tm.htm#800522
Punishment and how you choose to apply it

http://www.collarchat.com/m_611292/mpage_2/key_punishment/tm.htm#611778
Punishment is Deceptive

http://www.collarchat.com/m_597685/mpage_1/key_punishment/tm.htm#597689
Talking Vs Corporal Punishment

http://www.collarchat.com/m_572243/mpage_1/key_punishment/tm.htm#572280
Question for female subs on punishment

http://www.collarchat.com/m_18608/mpage_1/key_punishment/tm.htm#18608
Punishment and Discipline

http://www.collarchat.com/m_74162/mpage_1/key_punishment/tm.htm#74162
Training?  Punishment?

http://www.collarchat.com/m_84734/mpage_1/key_punishment/tm.htm#84734
Punishment vs Play

http://www.collarchat.com/m_146151/mpage_1/key_punishment/tm.htm#146151
What is the difference between punishment and discipline?

http://www.collarchat.com/m_374557/mpage_1/key_punishment/tm.htm#374557
Testing, being broken, regular punishment, etc, etc....

http://www.collarchat.com/m_523257/mpage_1/key_punishment/tm.htm#523257
Discipline & Punishment

http://www.collarchat.com/m_495126/mpage_1/key_punishment/tm.htm#495126
On punishment




Estring -> RE: Punishment: What to punish for and how brutal? (9/26/2007 11:44:13 PM)

Well, I guess anal play is off the table now.



HollyBlue -> RE: Punishment: What to punish for and how brutal? (9/27/2007 12:26:09 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: amelliagrace


Valyraen would never mind fuck me like that for punishment. Which is good because that sort of punishment would probably destroy a great deal of the trust I have in him.

But it works for you and that is what counts.

quote:

The same here. It would destroy it quickly, and just about completely.

-grace


I agree with these two, but no, Estring, ass play is definitely not off the table.

The reason that punishment would destroy trust is that I must be able to trust my Master's word. If he says he's going to do a thing, and doesn't do it, then I never know what to think about what he says. So, OP, I think "implied threat" is definitely not a good idea. In addition, make consequences, not threats, and if the sub does the behaviour you have previously defined as having specific consequences, then FFS carry out the punishment you defined, to the letter!

I have an entry in my blog on corporal punishment that may be of some interest:

http://hollybluesflightofideas.blogspot.com/2007/09/on-corporal-punishment.html

Also, my Master and I have since developed a punishment protocol that goes as follows:

1) Master: Holly, [insert infraction here i.e. 'you are tardy.'] I am going to punish you, with [insert consequence here, e.e. 'two hard smacks to each ass cheek.'] Do you have anything to say?

(This "Do you have anything to say" question is one of the main reason our punishment protocol exists. It stops a punishment from being carried out if the infraction was due to a misunderstanding. So, in the above example, if I was tardy due to circumstances beyond my control, I can explain the circumstances to Master. Or, if I'm about to be punished for being "mouthy," it gives me an opportunity to explain if I was indeed not being disrespectful, but Master misunderstood me.

I do not abuse the privilege of this communication cross-check before punishment occurs; it's just a failsafe. Master knows I'm not the kind of person who would use it to wheedle out of a punishment I deserved.)

2) Holly answers. In this example, let's say she was tardy because she was messing around on the internet. That is not a good excuse. So, her answer would be "No, sir."

3) Master: "Why are you being punished, Holly?"

4) Holly: States reason, in this case she would say, "Because I was tardy, sir."

5) Master: Specifies desired slave position (Holly assumes any one of 10 positions immediately on command), or simply has Holly take down her pants without assuming a special position.

6) Holly assumes position and/or disrobes as necessary.

7) Master administers punishment. Holly is expected to understand that it will hurt...it is not for her pleasure. She is also expected to take it quietly and gracefully, remaining in position.

8) After being punished, Holly thanks Master for punishing her.

Sounds complicated, but in reality, it only takes a couple of minutes, and insures that there has been clear communication as to why the punishment is occurring and whether the punishable transaction did, in fact, occur.

P.S. Oh, and about the ass play thing...um, I too would be extremely turned on by the OP's described activity (if he carried through on his promise and inserted the thing fully), therefore it would not be an appropriate punishment for me. [;)]



MaamJay -> RE: Punishment: What to punish for and how brutal? (9/27/2007 1:09:22 AM)

Obviously with the recent number of threads on punishment, it must float some people's boat to live in a permanent scenario of punishing for small infractions. Maybe it's years of being a real teacher in classrooms of 30+ real students ... but it sure doesn't float Mine! You simply can't go round making threats and punishing kids every 5 minutes, you'd get nothing taught. Instead you need an air of authority, a quiet confidence in your ability to inspire respect in at least most students, an ability to communicate very clearly as to your expectations, an expectation that most students will live up to what you expect of them ... and a very clear knowledge of what you can do for the odd student who does the wrong thing! It also trains you to be very aware and on top of what is happening so you nip potential problems in the bud before they escalate. It trains you in the art of correction and consistency.

These are the qualities I bring to being a Domme ... which is why I consider if I have to actually punish ... which I would only do for willful disobedience, I have failed as well in some way. And it would open up a long and detailed discussion to get to the root of the problem. Punishment would not involve anything I might also do as play so "brutal" doesn't come into it. The only part of the OP I agreed with is that it has to be something the sub genuinely doesn't like, which means withdrawal of privileges can be very effective.

I would be especially wary of doing as the OP is, and using something sexual (ie the butt plug) as punishment. If the sub decides she's had enough of his punishment games, she could toddle off to the police with claims of anal rape ie sodomy, which is a pretty serious crime in most jurisdictions ... and she'd have the physical evidence to condemn him. Not very clever!

Maam Jay aka violet[A]



DominaSmartass -> RE: Punishment: What to punish for and how brutal? (9/27/2007 2:00:21 AM)

Don't you think this topic has been beaten to death? Pun intended. 



rohurls -> RE: Punishment: What to punish for and how brutal? (9/27/2007 2:24:18 AM)

ok my opinion is like an asshole we all have em so heres my moon on this one
first off we dont punish ourselves so stopping contact is the same as sayin id rather jerk off in fact the latter might turn her on more. I dont punish my slave i love her to the point where dissapointing her master is the worst thing that could ever happen to her (yes this is possible) another thing i have done in the past is orgasm witholding for long periods yes its fun and yes its play and yes it can be excrutiating and the longer you make her hold out the more explosive it is in the end but it can leave her wondering no matter how good it is if it was worth it and in the end it allways is. but for the most part id she prepares a meal i dont like. I simply wont eat. she will feel bad enough i dont need to punish her she will do a much better job herself. so small infractions my dissapointment is enough.for bigger ones we have to get imaginative and make it memorable and not hoorrible she wont like you if your intollerable there are many more loving ways to express yourself



celticlord2112 -> RE: Punishment: What to punish for and how brutal? (9/27/2007 3:15:07 AM)

quote:

What do you all think?

Personally, I think you spend way too much time thinking about punishment.



murmur -> RE: Punishment: What to punish for and how brutal? (9/27/2007 3:45:19 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SubmissiveLion

Some people would think its lax, but if your a Dominant, then you don't need the contact, while a sub most likely needs the Master to give them attention.  You would be suprised at how fast you can keep a Sub in line with that.

What do you all think?


i wouldnt want a Master or Dom who never needed the contact with me. It's about the relationship and respect, not a training aspect, isnt it?
and if the sub isnt keen in being *kept in line* by herself, always needing to be reminded of her place, maybe there's another problem more profound then just the transgression...



feastie -> RE: Punishment: What to punish for and how brutal? (9/27/2007 4:11:07 AM)

I can't help but think what a misguided soul the OP's submissive must be.  Another fine example of a lack of intelligence and creativity and an abundance of "Me Dom, you sub, Me set you up to fail".  Can we not isolate the gene that causes this and kill it?



Phoenixandnika -> RE: Punishment: What to punish for and how brutal? (9/27/2007 4:39:17 AM)



I want to please Phoenix in the things that I do, but sometimes I screw up. Sometimes I may forget to journal or push certain lines--but the reality is he expects me to screw up from time to time. After all I am human and far from perfect. When he points out that I disappointed him I feel bad and typically will beat myself up more than he does about it. I feel guilty and I HATE that look it makes my heart sink into the pit of my stomach.
 
By being consistent, by being fair, by talking to me the issues are typically dealt with immediately and I don’t fear him staying mad or throwing up a week later. He has rarely had to punish me for anything major his punishment are NEVER corporal because the reality is they don’t work on me.
 
If I don’t journal I loose computer time.
If I don’t stop tickling or picking when told enough, he will stop holding me for a while or simply roll over and go to sleep.
If my house work isn’t done -- I have to live with the clutter. (laughs)
He has put me in the corner or gone into the other room for a period for a period of time for various things.
 
No matter how mad he gets though, he doesn’t yell. He doesn’t scream and I know he would NEVER punish out of anger or spite. I also know that before punishment he will tell me what I did wrong as well as the consequences of it happening again. After the punishment he holds me and cherishes me, reminding me that he holds me accountable and to his standards because he loves me and because I am his.
 
Edited to add: I echo the notion that I could not /would not be with a dominant that did not want or need physical contact with me. I also don't understand what I call the velcro collar, removing a subs collar as a punishment only to put it back on after a time periiod.

 
Blessed Be,
Nika



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