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ORIGINAL: daddysprop247

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ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

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punishment, as we are using it here, is not an act of vengeance because it not a matter of "you wronged me, so i shall make you pay," but simply about paying/suffering a penalty for a misdeed or disobedience.

How do you come to the belief that "disobedience" is not an instance of "you wronged me? If you have promised Daddy your obedience, but do not provide it, then you have wronged Daddy's trust in your promise.

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perhaps you have such a negative perception of punishment overall because you are thinking of only one particular manner of punishment, one which differs considerably from the sort of punishment practiced by most of those in D/s relationships.

I don't know "most of those in D/s relationships". I don't think anyone does, really. I'm of the opinion that the vast majority of them never surface, that they are shared privately and do not speak out on boards like this.

And I'm of the opinion that the abusive ones are even less likely to appear here, tho' survivors might speak out from time to time.

I see a rather broad cultural divide between punishment advocates and people like me who do not use punishment. That's why I raised the topic: to see if I could narrow or bridge that divide.

yes, there is quite a divide between the two schools of thought, and i admire your premise. hopefully a greater understanding and acceptance will be brought about, on both sides of the fence.

now, to respond to your first question regarding disobedience...for a submissive or slave to willfully disobey is certainly a bad thing, disrespectful and shameful, but with the exception of some weird, rare circumstance (say the sub/slave murdered a loved one of the Dominant or some such), it is not about intentionally harming or wronging the Dominant. if that were the case, then a sub/slave would only disobey in order to figuratively slap the Dominant in the face, and punishment would only ever be a matter of revenge. i would say that such would very rarely be the case, and i also believe it would be safe to say that those "advocating" punishment in this thread are not speaking of such a circumstance.

but you also must remember that punishment is not always due to disobedience. personally, i have never willfully disobeyed my Master, i am punished for other far less severe offenses. my last punishment was due to my being forgetful and leaving a high-wattage light on for an hour after i had left the room: would you say that i "wronged" my Master by leaving that light on? that i broke his trust? given your stance on punishment, in his place would you have decided i no longer wished to be a slave, and ignored/abandoned me instead?

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ORIGINAL: amiciaN

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ORIGINAL: Bobkgin


Charlotte,

No one becomes my slave without first asking me to be her master. I do not agree to be anyone's master unless she has first offered me her obedience. She must understand that her promise of obedience is the basis for my trust in her and forms the foundation of our relationship.

Obedience is for me what monogamy is for vanilla marriage, and my past slaves have known that.

Furthermore, no slave of mine can ever disobey me without knowing that is what she is doing and the consequences that will result from it.

The rules are clear, and known at the beginning.

How does this work out to "emotional blackmail"?

Because an accidental failure to obey will result in the termination of the relationship.  Monogomy demands obedience in ONE area; you are demanding complete obedience in EVERY area... aka perfection.  Since humans aren't perfect, you are setting her up to fail from the beginning.

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If a woman in relationship with me felt compelled to disobey, she is announcing that she no longer trusts me or our relationship. Are you saying I should continue to act as her master after such an announcement?

So uncertainity or doubt will also end the relationship.  Let's add that to list; she must not only act perfectly, she must think and feel perfectly.

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If any woman announced that she no longer trusted her partner or their relationship, are you arguing a policy that her master should continue to behave as her master and treate her as his slave?

If she only announces that her trust is shaken and does not ask to be released, it is what she probably wants and needs the most.  His control is what most likely makes her feel safe and able to regain that trust.

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Or that this is preferable to a master who respects the announcement and stops acting as her master and stops treating her as his slave?

Because if so we do indeed disagree.

Your scenarios only work if the people in them are perfect.  You also put all the responsibility for the continuation of the relationship on the slave's shoulders alone! 

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Now I don't even identify as 'slave' (though I am owned) and I know that isn't right.  Every definition of 'slave' I have ever heard put forth states plainly that the slave is 'held' by one means or another.  Held, Bob, not stays of their own free will and not blackmailed.  And what if the slave's trust is broken because YOU screwed up?? 

The infallible meets the perfect....May all the powers that be save us from that combination.

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ORIGINAL: InObsequium

Thank you for the words of welcome. Obviously I have been out here in the world-wide-web before, and have experienced the delights of message boards elsewhere, but I always feel a little like the new kid in school...

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2. As you point out yourself, there is another way. Just because your way doesn’t seem to follow the consensus, doesn’t mean it is any less valid, or valuable. It obviously is right for you, and where I come from, that’s what counts. When you step out of the box labeled ‘western heterosexual vanilla’, or any like box for that matter, you have to write your own rules. But, remembering a quote from a different thread posted in this one, you have known all that for quite a while now. Talking about preaching to the converted *private chuckle* I cannot, nor do I whish to, claim to know you well, but you don’t strike me as a person needing to feel backed up by consensus, even if it is the consensus of a minority all of us perverts can get at best. I do wonder therefore, what your motive is for starting this very successful thread. Call me curious. (You won’t be far wrong.)

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As to percussive maintenance and its role in my life… punishment it isn’t. Not even on the rare occasion it was called that. Retribution it cannot be called either. Retribution is just a fancy word for revenge, in my book as well as in the dictionaries I use, and Hawkins doesn’t do that. Whether it is valid to use retribution or not, it is just not something my d/m is into, and therefore it isn't applicable to me.  What it is used for, and only on rare occasions, is atonement. I rarely, but sometimes do ask Hawkins to use physical ‘punishment’ on me, so that not only he, but I too, can forgive myself for whatever it is I have done. He only complies if he feels I have felt bad enough for long enough and recognizes that the reason I cannot move on without it, is that sadly, at age 35 this perfectionist (and no, I don't use the tag as a badge of honour) has some learning to do regarding concepts like ‘reasonable’, ‘enough’, or ‘adequate’. *wry smile*  As you can imagine, learning to live with oneself takes more time than any reasonable d/m would want to hold their breath for. He really does me a kindness in cases like that, and himself too. Enlightened self-interest. I don’t break rules on purpose without good reason. I really don't. Our dynamic just isn't the one of BRAT versus disciplinarian. Nothing wrong with that for those it suits, I wish them all happy naughtiness, I'm just saying it's just not for us. If I break a rule knowingly and wittingly I do so trusting Hawkins will agree with my decision to do so (he's not into micromanagement of me normally), and I don’t make many errors of judgement (about two since 1995). If I break a rule by mistake we talk about it, and no, there is no greater wrong in this world than Hawkins being irritated/angry/dissappointed with me. Well, there is of course, but not in the world of Kate.

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3. For some, yes. If their partners consent to this, who am I to pass judgement? If their partners do not consent, then we are talking about abuse indeed. For others, it seems to work to have the dividing lines between punishment and play so muddled that they overlap. For some they seem to overlap so much the people in the relationship are hard pushed to pick them apart. For others again, physical punishment, or any form of punishment, fits in with life as they wish to live it. If they wish it so, it cannot within my personal framework of reference be called abuse, whatever my personal views on the matter might be. For Hawkins and I it doesn’t work like that though. Not at all.

Also, you seem to assume that all d/ms subscribe to the idea that d/ms are supposed to facilitate the growth and development of their sub/slave’s self esteem and / or other issues. Although in itself there is nothing wrong with that as far as I am concerned, my d/m is not my parent/teacher. I am an adult human being and am supposed to function as may reasonably be expected from one. To me, ‘punishment’ has something of the parent-child dynamic to it. As that is not what we are about, it doesn’t suit us.

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4. Disagree. You are right; very often abusive spouses indeed try to put the blame on their battered partner’s behaviour. Very often too, those exact same abusers feel dreadfully guilty about their own behaviour, which is why they so desperately need to justify their unjustifiable actions.

Your comparison between abusive spouses and d/ms using physical punishment within the dynamic of their bdsm relationship ends there, provided the sub/slave freely and ably consents to physical punishment being part of said dynamic. Plus respect. Plus love. Plus understanding, the whole spankin’ lot. The thing is, with most bdsm relationships, the punishment thang belongs to all those involved, not just the d/ms. If you’d ask the majority of them separately, individually and anonymously, I suspect both sides would not wish it gone, if it is there now.

In obsequium,

Kate

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ORIGINAL: InObsequium

Oh, I do apologise, my curiosity was satisfied before I had the chance to voice it... Although you do not seem very successful in your attempts at bridging...*wink*

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You don't need to apply yourself to obedience to the same degree as a slave of mine would, because your relationship does not hinge upon your obedience.

In your relationship, disobedience is forgivable after you've been punished, so the relationship continues. So the value of obedience is diminished, because it isn't essential to keep your relationship going.

My past slaves would not have seen obedience in that light. To them, it would have been far more important because the relationship depended upon it.

With mine, they would have remembered to turn out the light.

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ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

You don't need to apply yourself to obedience to the same degree as a slave of mine would, because your relationship does not hinge upon your obedience.

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ORIGINAL: Aileen68

I can't really pick out any one post or quote, but just know that my reaction to all of yours in this thread is to just shake my head and think OMG.  Collarme has just taken on a fourth dimension...bobkgin land.

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ORIGINAL: breatheasone

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ORIGINAL: Aileen68

I can't really pick out any one post or quote, but just know that my reaction to all of yours in this thread is to just shake my head and think OMG.  Collarme has just taken on a fourth dimension...bobkgin land.

LMAO...cool...glad you could join us.....

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ORIGINAL: Aileen68

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ORIGINAL: breatheasone

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ORIGINAL: Aileen68

I can't really pick out any one post or quote, but just know that my reaction to all of yours in this thread is to just shake my head and think OMG.  Collarme has just taken on a fourth dimension...bobkgin land.

LMAO...cool...glad you could join us.....

Nooooooo...must try to go back to sleep.  This place is too fucking weird lately.

Granted...I truly don't get why some people are warranting so much attention, but then again I never claimed to be the sharpest knife in the drawer! 

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ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

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ORIGINAL: amiciaN

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ORIGINAL: Bobkgin


Charlotte,

No one becomes my slave without first asking me to be her master. I do not agree to be anyone's master unless she has first offered me her obedience. She must understand that her promise of obedience is the basis for my trust in her and forms the foundation of our relationship.

Obedience is for me what monogamy is for vanilla marriage, and my past slaves have known that.

Furthermore, no slave of mine can ever disobey me without knowing that is what she is doing and the consequences that will result from it.

The rules are clear, and known at the beginning.

How does this work out to "emotional blackmail"?

Because an accidental failure to obey will result in the termination of the relationship.  Monogomy demands obedience in ONE area; you are demanding complete obedience in EVERY area... aka perfection.  Since humans aren't perfect, you are setting her up to fail from the beginning.

She is asking me to be her master and offering me her obedience because she believes I am the best choice to help her to grow through my instructions, directions and encouragement.

The last one to do this lasted over ten years, married me, and bore me a son before she died.

You are saying she did not make a single mistake in 10 years???  As a flawed human being who has never met a perfect person yet, not even my beloved Master (though imho He's extremely close), I simply cannot believe this..  You also ignored the difficulty in equating perfect obedience in all things to monogamy.  I have no difficulty being monogamous, even though I am bisexual and in a long distance relationship.  I am no where close to perfectly obedient, though I give my all in every attempt, successful or not.

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If a woman in relationship with me felt compelled to disobey, she is announcing that she no longer trusts me or our relationship. Are you saying I should continue to act as her master after such an announcement?

So uncertainity or doubt will also end the relationship.  Let's add that to list; she must not only act perfectly, she must think and feel perfectly.

If a woman lacks trust in her partner, what is she doing in the relationship in the first place?

I trusted my Master 'completely' the day He collared me almost 2 years ago.  That trust pales in comparison to the trust I have in Him now.  Does that mean I lacked trust then?  You also stated that the slave was compelled to disobey.  If it was something outside the relationship that caused the disobedience, how it that her choosing to disobey rather than simply failing to?

Why would she stay in a relationship if she is uncertain or doubtful?

When NChaka offered me His collar, I instantly said yes; there was not a single doubt in my mind or His.  Since that day, we have both had our moments of uncertainty and doubts.  We find the cause and deal with it, rather than pretending it doesn't exist or using it as an excuse to give up on our relationship.

Why enter a relationship with doubts and uncertainties?

I did not say that anyone entered the relationship with doubts.  However, you are saying that they will never come up and I have not seen a single relationship yet that did not ever encounter these things, not even my grandparents who literally never had a single argument in 53 years.

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If any woman announced that she no longer trusted her partner or their relationship, are you arguing a policy that her master should continue to behave as her master and treate her as his slave?

If she only announces that her trust is shaken and does not ask to be released, it is what she probably wants and needs the most.  His control is what most likely makes her feel safe and able to regain that trust.

And upon what assumptions are these generalizations based?

They are my own personal observations, not on assumptions.  You have no idea how many submissives I have heard lament "Dom(inate) me, dammit!"  And I was quite careful to use the words 'probably' and 'most likely', which are clearly not scientific terminology and aptly convey that I am, in fact, making a generalization, rather than a statement of absolutes or an assumption.

It seems you are also arguing that a slave has every right to go on strike (disobey) while retaining the right to expect her master to keep her while she is on strike.

I am advocating no such thing.  I am not even talking about willful disobedience.  I am simply advocating allowing for being human.  I have met very few submissives or slaves who willfully disobey (other than SAM's; then only within limits) and not one who has 'gone on strike'!  That would be ending the relationship.  What I am talking about here is the inability to obey, not the lack of desire to.

I know topping from the bottom has its advocates, but I'm not one of them.

Nice attempt at a little passive-agressive jab, however my ex was an expert and I've grown immune to this sort of attack from strangers.  If you think I 'top from the bottom', why don't you simply ask my Master NChaka about that?  He is a member here, though He chooses not to participate in the forums.

A slave who asks me to be her master knows what she is asking for. What is the point of saying I expect obedience if I'm going to repeatedly tolerate disobedience? I might as well say "do whatever you wish, I don't care".

You are trying to make everything be an absolute; black or white, gray does not exist.  That's not the way life really is and I think you know that, even if you can't admit it right now.  For me personally, and apparently for many of the other submissives and slaves who have responded here, your refusal to allow for honest failures and the threat that the relationship will end over the smallest mistake (ie the light left on that Daddysprop mentioned) would be far more abusive than any physical punishment could ever be.

Her obedience is her trust manifest. Her disobedience is a direct assault against her own trustworthiness. She knows this before she ever commits disobedience. If she holds her own promises to be of so little worth as to ignore them, why should I trust her, and in not trusting her, why would I want to be with her?

If I promise to be home at a certain time and my car breaks down, I have broken that promise... and therefore I've been disobedient and have 'forfeited' the relationship by your standards.  I don't see that as a very realisitic expectation.

If my trust is of so little meaning to her that she would disobey me, why should I believe the requisite trust, love and respect exists to sustain the relationship?

You are leaving no room for the unavoidable; see above.  Where in that scenario is there a lack of trust, love or respect?

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Or that this is preferable to a master who respects the announcement and stops acting as her master and stops treating her as his slave?

Because if so we do indeed disagree.

Your scenarios only work if the people in them are perfect.  You also put all the responsibility for the continuation of the relationship on the slave's shoulders alone! 

Nonsense.

I have my responsibilities which I accepted when I accepted her as my slave. Betray those responsibilities and I am the one who ends the relationship.

Yet you do not mention once what those responsibilities are, only what the responsibilities of the slave are.  And you are still holding to a standard of perfection, which few people see as healthy.  Excellence?  Yes!!  Perfection?  Not humanly possible that anyone has proven beyond any doubt yet.

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Now I don't even identify as 'slave' (though I am owned) and I know that isn't right.  Every definition of 'slave' I have ever heard put forth states plainly that the slave is 'held' by one means or another.  Held, Bob, not stays of their own free will and not blackmailed.  And what if the slave's trust is broken because YOU screwed up?? 

You skipped this one... how convenient.

The infallible meets the perfect....May all the powers that be save us from that combination.

And why should anyone be saved from such a combination?

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ORIGINAL: amiciaN

I am no where close to perfectly obedient, though I give my all in every attempt, successful or not.