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ORIGINAL: BlackKnight

speaking of punishment and abuse, anyone want some abuse right now? punishment?

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ORIGINAL: BlackKnight

oh shit, I thought you looked familiar, I've seen yous somewhere, don't know where, but I have.

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ORIGINAL: BlackKnight

Probably a good girl, cause I would have remembered you better if I knew...

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ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

I'll go so far as to say it appears to be evidence in favour of such a belief.

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I could also point to battered wives and claim evidence to the contrary.

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Whereas the former situation is about loving a person versus be afraid of losing her companionship through no one's choice, the latter situation more clearly demonstrates a correlation between fearing a person and loving the same person.

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I can say no one has convinced me to embrace the use of fear in my relationships.

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But I have been convinced there is more to this than what I thought at the beginning of this discussion.

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This is one of those situations where an open mind proves useful

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This is one of those factors that makes assessing this issue difficult. Are people reporting "fear" when they could just as easily report "excitement", and vice versa? How do we distinguish between the two when our body sends us identical signals for each?

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I've never been on one. Two terms crop up for me whenever I consider it.
The first is "out of control". The second is "crater".

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Since adrenalin ages a body, I've chosen to avoid the stuff as much as possible so as to retain my youthful appearance

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You have to keep in mind I'm alpha to a family of nine dogs: mom, dad and their five-year-old 'pups'. I've raised all the dogs since they were puppies. I've been the one to handle all their crises[...]

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So when you talk of matters relevant to horse-whispering, I relate through my experience with my pups.

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Mine have lived with cats all their lives.

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Actually, the pack dynamic has been a fascinating study of D/s.

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The pecking order is constantly evolving, yet they all submit to the cats.

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ORIGINAL: BlackKnight

your in an abuse mood? bao can't get abuse from BAO?

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ORIGINAL: BlackKnight

breathasone BreatheAsOne

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ORIGINAL: BlackKnight

well your owned and have to wait to be abused.
I'm feeling a need to abuse, any elijable takers?

LOL...why yes...I am owned....and wait i will.....

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ORIGINAL: DocRudy

And it still bothers me whenever I encounter someone who seems to be anti-punishment in general. I mean completely against all forms of negative reinforcement and consequences for any type of negative behavior.

Yes, these people exist.

Taking away a child's privileges is wrong, because it hurts their self-esteem and takes away "basic freedoms."
Putting a murderer in prison is wrong, because they could be rehabilitated in therapy.
Flogging a sub is wrong, because they might fear the dom/me, or the flogger.

/sigh

Punishments are so basic to me that they are a part of life, so I ask that you excuse me when I say it's incomprehensible to me that anyone can be against the very concept of punishment.

-DR

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ORIGINAL: Aswad

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ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

I'll go so far as to say it appears to be evidence in favour of such a belief.

~nods~

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I could also point to battered wives and claim evidence to the contrary.

I'd actually say battered spouses might constitute evidence in favour.

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By the way, I would suggest reading up on battered husbands and so forth.
My use of the term "spouse" over "wife" has is not a matter of political correctness.

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Whereas the former situation is about loving a person versus be afraid of losing her companionship through no one's choice, the latter situation more clearly demonstrates a correlation between fearing a person and loving the same person.

Let's consider hazing for a moment, whether in the army, in fraternity pledges, or in the Japanese sempai-kohai relationship. It is clear beyond reasonable doubt that there is an element of bonding involved, and that the hazing is part of it. Going a bit further, one finds cases like Кαмρμѕсн (sorry for mangling that, I don't want this post to turn up in a Google for her name). Here, too, some form of stable bond has undeniably been formed.

Considering that a bond can form under such circumstances, and even worse ones, one might be inclined to assume the same can happen in the presence of fear. Bear in mind things like post-disaster bonding and sex, release of oxytocins, etc... Although it can be said that this acts to alleviate fear through bonding, of course.

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In any case, I wonder if you might not be confusing fear with terror?
Or perhaps confusing fear with some of the more complicated emotions?
For me, what most would call fear is actually a performance boosting emotion.
It does not have negative connotations, as it is more a response of "upping the pace."
Abject terror, however, would seem incompatible with just about anything.
And complicated emotions in that spectrum are ... well, complicated.

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I can say no one has convinced me to embrace the use of fear in my relationships.

I am not trying to convince you to change your style, Bob. That's not my thing.

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For that matter, my use of it is limited, though someone did convince me to try a bit more of it.

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But I have been convinced there is more to this than what I thought at the beginning of this discussion.

That, however, is my thing. If I have had some measure of success, then I'm glad.

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This is one of those situations where an open mind proves useful

An open mind is useful in any circumstance where one tries to understand something.
Especially something one is not used to, or which creates a gut reaction.

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This is one of those factors that makes assessing this issue difficult. Are people reporting "fear" when they could just as easily report "excitement", and vice versa? How do we distinguish between the two when our body sends us identical signals for each?

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I've never been on one. Two terms crop up for me whenever I consider it.
The first is "out of control". The second is "crater".

~lol~

You have a limit to seduce then, no?

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Since adrenalin ages a body, I've chosen to avoid the stuff as much as possible so as to retain my youthful appearance

Actually, that depends on the amount, and the duration. There is a "sweet spot" that is quite a bit above what people normally experience. Lt. Col. Dave Grossman has been doing a fair bit of research on that. I'm inclined to attribute my excellent (even for my young age) cardiac health to adrenal load, as I've had enough crap happen to the poor ticker that it shouldn't be above average health for my age group at this point.

Apart from that, I would also point out that MAOIs and COMT-inhibitors may lessen the oxidative stress involved in adrenaline catabolism. Green tea has a very weak effect of the latter type, for instance. The MAOIs, by comparison, have the added benefit of lowering other kinds of intracellular oxidative stress. Starting at age 35-40 or so with a low dose of l-deprenyl, for instance, reduces the risk of developing Parkinsons by 80% or so, IIRC.

If anti-aging specifically, or transhumanism generally, is of interest to you, drop me a line via PM.

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You have to keep in mind I'm alpha to a family of nine dogs: mom, dad and their five-year-old 'pups'. I've raised all the dogs since they were puppies. I've been the one to handle all their crises[...]

Then you are also, no doubt, aware that alpha is both a role and a biological trait in them.

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ORIGINAL: InObsequium

Interesting thread…

First of all, this is my first post on these boards. I have tried to figure out how it all works, but wish to ask all involved not to take offence if I happen to misuse any of the plethora of buttons available to me. I assure you all I only mean to take part in the discussion, and to do so in accordance with the rules governing courtesy and good manners. In case anyone feels I need pointing things out, please do so, you’ll find me a fast and grateful learner.

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As I have neither got enough free time to read all previous threads on the same subject on these message boards nor the inclination to do so, I’ll take your conclusions (1&2) as to the themes of these threads at face value.

Your interpretations of those themes, however, I cannot so blindly subscribe to.

It is simply my personal experience that a sub/slave can be extremely devoted to obeying her d/m and yet sometimes break a rule. Apart from personal experience, which, cannot be admitted to be reliable proof for general tendencies to begin with, I find that linking the breaking of a rule directly and exclusively to a lack of devotion to obedience is not a conclusion I would come to from the above combination of data. Likewise, a sub/slave’s assumed need for physical punishment in order to learn not to break a rule does not add up to the sub/slave’s incapability to learn by any other means than by brute force.

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ORIGINAL: Bobkgin
As I don't believe in punishment, I don't really see a difference between an "infraction" and an "excuse for sadism".

They both seem to be a way of loading any guilt the d/m is feeling about being sadistic on the back of the submissive.

It's like saying "you've made me angry" when the truth is I choose whether I will respond with anger or something else to whatever is done to me or around me.

Do you see where I am going with this? It's akin to abusive husbands who blame the beatings on their wives' behaviour.

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As it is your question I wished to answer however, and as these views are at the foundation of your question, I will leave it at that. I merely wanted to tell you the above to make sure no confusion arose as to my own views on these matters. From your conclusions the ‘bottom’ line (impish look) follows logically. I will rephrase your question as it is presented in the first post in this thread to make sure you can point out where my line of reasoning goes out of wack when I answer your question. It may be I didn’t understand your question as you meant it to be understood. This is what I read:


Why is punishment within a bdsm relationship not seen as abusive by the bdsm community, at least as far as these boards are concerned?
It seems to be the consensus of the bdsm community on these boards that to be a better d/m, and to get a more obedient sub/slave, you should frighten your sub/slave with physical punishment and the threat thereof. Isn’t there another way?
Isn’t physical punishment just an excuse for sadists who haven’t come to term with the fact they derive sexual pleasure from the infliction of pain to do just that without having to take responsibility for their actions?
Physical punishment of a sub/slave is the same as abuse within an abusive vanilla relationship. Agree/disagree?

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You ask not one, but several questions, and there seem to be more, as they come up in the thread. I have one to ask of you, if you’ll permit me, to further my understanding of your arguments as they appear in this thread. I’ll just assume permission and ask it here, before I answer the above questions and perhaps forget it later.
What is your definition of ‘punishment’?

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As for my answers, they are solely based on this thread and the contents of my head. I make no claims as to the accuracy of my statements, not the veracity of the facts as I see it. I won’t post them in one post, as I’m afraid to make a nuisance of myself and clog up the thread, but I’ll start with the answer to 1.  

1. As many have said before me, I too believe consensuality is part of the answer to question 1. Whether someone consents to a single session that includes corporal punishment, or consents to being in a relationship where physical punishment can be dealt out at the instigation of one of the people in it doesn’t matter, even if they consent to being in a relationship which they have to give up the power of consent to be in, as long as they can be reasonably found capable of consenting at the outset and as long as they have done so freely. I also subscribe to the idea that respect for the person punished by the punisher plays a part, and that punishment is only punishment if the punisher is not acting out his/her anger or personal frustrations, but acting as ratio dictates within their own framework of reference. Apart from that it seems logical to me that, within a subculture that sets itself apart from the rest of society partly by relieving physical violence from its ‘bad’ tag, physical punishment is not generally seen as abusive. The bdsm community is an enclave within society as most of us know it, in which cheerfully wacking someone hard and repeatedly so that sweat appears upon one’s masterly brow is possible without automatically having to fear retribution, accusations of assault or abuse, arrest by the police, etc. That doesn’t mean this possibility is never abused in itself. That doesn’t mean that sometimes, in my own personal estimation, the ‘punishment’ exacted by some, and gratefully accepted by others, doesn’t amount to abuse. But my kink isn’t your kink, and that wasn’t the question you asked us.

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Thank you all for making me think. I'm enjoying this a lot.

In Obsequium,

Kate.

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"...What is your definition of ‘punishment’? "

Retribution. Vengeance.

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ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

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"...What is your definition of ‘punishment’? "

Retribution. Vengeance.

If that is why you punish, it is very likely that you would be abusing someone with it.

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ORIGINAL: Bobkgin
As I don't believe in punishment ...

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That does not mean that punishment is vengeance for those who do not hold it to be such, and thus we get into the realm of projection.