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Mercnbeth -> RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? (9/28/2007 8:28:50 AM)
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From the vantage point of waking up in the Doubletree at the Folsom Fringe with my slave naked by my side and a submissive, first time "out" in a community setting, acting like a kid waking up on Christmas morning impatient to open the 'presents' under the tree, punishment is the last thing on my mind.
Thanks for the coffee 'Moe-Fluff'; I'll be right back to you and beth in a few...
The basic question-why would adults want/need physical punishment? Obviously they don't. Obviously standing alone physical punishment, outside "play" lends to being perceived as "abuse".
It seems that all this talk about punishment is an attempt to get out of a painted corner.
The most recent post.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bobkgin
To the audience at large:
As I understand it, "punishment" (not the role-playing variety) is intended to correct behavior through physical discipline.
Punishment is to be feared, thus acting on the sub/slave as aversion therapy.=
My question is why would a d/m choose to cause his sub/slave to fear him?
Why choose fear when there is love?
And in choosing fear, how does this improve the sub/slave's self-esteem, confidence, love and devotion?
How does this differ from the abusive husband whose battered wife obeys out of fear?
This was the initial response to the idea of 'punishment':
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bobkgin: I'll describe what I do and you tell me if "punishment" is an apt description. If my slave has refused to behave as a slave, without good cause, then I pull back and refuse to act as a master until such time as the slave acknowledges her error and asks me to re-assume control.
Simply put, refusal to accept the responsibilities she assumed upon entering the relationship is a betrayal of trust: a signal that she does not want me to be her master.
It may have been a momentary lapse into selfishness, or it may be more. But rather than assume the best interpretation, I assume it is a challenge to my authority.
As I have no authority without her willing cooperation, I do not pretend to have authority when her behavior tells me I have none over her.
So I withdraw, and wait.
This leads to some serious discussions about the nature of our relationship, her interest in it, and the future. She has to convince me that this was a mistake she regrets and has no intention of repeating before I will don the mantle of her master.
My debate with Bob wasn't whether discussion and communication was right or wrong as an option. It was the aspect of withdrawing dominance summarized by... "So I withdraw, and wait."
Stipulating that both are "punishment" which is "better" is contingent on the relationship dynamic. But outside either dynamic which would you rather have; a situation where the dominant in the relationship withdrew dominance until you, as the submissive beat yourself up mentally and came to you apologetic an humble promising that you'll do better at the risk of having dominance withdrawn again or permanently; or a dynamic where the dominant pro actively sat you down, TOLD YOU what was wrong, listened and included in the 'judgment' your perspective, and inflicted physical 'punishment', after which the situation was behind you. The physical punishment represents the finality of the problem - its over. The submissive does the 'penance' the dominant has a physical experience as an end point of his 'frustration'. Sometimes new things are leaned about the other - sometimes the relationship grows - sometimes it has no relationship impact. However - ALL the time - it is over. That's the goal and impact of punishment in our dynamic.
Since its been asked - the last need for such an event in our home was a little more than 4 years ago, VERY early in our relationship. It was the result of my wanting something at a certain time and she 'forgot'. We talked, I reminded beth how if I said it - it was important to remember. she agreed, cried, received 5 with a cane and stood in a corner for 1/2 hour - It was over.
The Bob - method would have been to come home and sit and do nothing - waiting for...What exactly? beth to come by and wonder why I'm sulking on the couch? My withdraw from communicating? What goes through the subs mind during this process? How may questions and conditions, worse than reality, must she consider before determining the right one, coming to me and deciding upon the right thing to say to make it better? Meanwhile, I withdraw and wait? No - I not a waiting Dominant, I'm not a reactive Dominant, and I don't need my submissive to be responsible for her own evaluation and punishment. she may have 'failed' but so did I. We both have responsibilities that need re-confirmation. Once completed, the physical 'punishment' doesn't allow for any baggage to be carried by either party.
I believe that the cause for punishment indicates failure, failure of BOTH parties. The Dom to train and clearly specify acceptable and unacceptable behavior, committing to ongoing open communication. Committing to a proactive approach to correction when failure occurs.
What would you fear more? Were it in a vanilla context withdrawing from your partner is considered abuse by counseling professionals.
What people do and what works for them works and therefore is "correct" and "right" for them. Of course there is never going to be agreement because if they agreed they would be doing something else. Worse - they'd be 'WRONG' - well that's never going to happen especially in this media. The internet isn't for being wrong it's for creating a persona and living a life that doesn't require any real life benchmarked confirmation of belief. Many times posts only serve as ongoing additions to profiles seeking a person or persons to employ untested beliefs. Reticence to admit being wrong is a function of not wanting to have inconsistency. Its easy to get painted into a corner. Personally I enjoy the challenges of differing opinion. The end result is my beliefs and opinions, employed in my life and interaction with beth and others, have been confirmed and strengthened. I thank all for contributing.
Ahh, 'Moe' just brought in more coffee. Only a couple hours until registration opens. Back to more interesting endevours...
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