RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? (Full Version)

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xoxi -> RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? (10/1/2007 8:01:35 PM)

In fact I think it says quite a bit about you that rather than view my words ("If so, implement [the change].  If not, wish her luck and attempt to find someone more compatible") as two people breaking up due to incompatibility you took it to mean that someone would say "do what I want or I will leave you."

Which is kind of what I said you have been saying the whole time.

Who was talking about 'projection' earlier?  That person was spot on, as far as I'm concerned.  I'm not quite sure how you made it to the age of 50 without realizing that other people have different motivations, priorities, and values than you do, but one thing your threads have shown me is it's damn impossible to teach an old bob new tricks.  Or even to teach him that just because he can't perform the trick, other bobs might still be able to.



Bobkgin -> RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? (10/1/2007 8:02:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: trappedinamuseum

Don't all relationships change, mature, and grow over time?  Who would want to be in a static relationship for the rest of their life? 



I agree.

But earlier today punishment advocates were saying that everyone makes mistakes throughout their life, and that every mistake a sub/slave makes must be punished, which means these sub/slaves can expect to be punished for the rest of their lives.

That doesn't sound to me like a lot of "change, mature and grow". Granted, some mistakes might not be repeated, but new ones are expected to occur to take their places.

And some have said that they need punishment to feel absolved of the guilt they feel having disappointed their d/m. But none talked of outgrowing it, as if they never would.

And it doesn't sound like their d/ms are invested in helping them outgrow this need for punishment to absolve their guilt.

quote:


Relationships are hard work...I think if she wants it badly enough, and works at it enough, nothing is impossible.  If she grows out of needing punishment, one can only hope he has grown out of needing to mete out punishment.  Hopefully, they've made the journey together and can work through it.  


Well Padriag seemed pretty certain that was the end of the relationship.

And so did you.

While suppose the above can be hoped for, I do not hear a whole lot about punishment-drive d/ms training their sub/slaves to no longer need punishment.

Which sounds to me like they would rather end the relationship than give up their need to punish.



xoxi -> RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? (10/1/2007 8:07:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

While suppose the above can be hoped for, I do not hear a whole lot about punishment-drive d/ms training their sub/slaves to no longer need punishment.

Which sounds to me like they would rather end the relationship than give up their need to punish.



Funny I'm not hearing much from punishment-driven subs saying that they want punishment to be a temporary thing that is outgrown.

Which sounds to me that it just might be possible that some people *gasp* enjoy this dynamic in their relationships.

Who woulda thunk it.



trappedinamuseum -> RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? (10/1/2007 8:09:46 PM)

So, if you didn't hear about it, does the question even merit an answer?  Obviously, this way of life does not affect you in any way, shape or form, as you do not live it.  So, why do you seek an answer for it?  Obviously no one else is wondering about this conumdrum...why waste the effort?

And, I only suggested ending the relationship if both parties cannot agree on punishment.  If the Dominant demands punishment, and the submissive refuses and he relents, has not the entire dynamic of the relationship been ruined?  What is the point then of keeping the relationship?



Bobkgin -> RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? (10/1/2007 8:13:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: xoxi

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

Now, those who have followed this thread have seen a -lot- of talk about "emotional blackmail" and "abandonment".

Wouldn't a dom threatening to "abandon" a sub unless she allows her dom to beat her as "punishment" constitute "emotional blackmail"?


No, I don't think it's blackmail because I don't think it would be presented as "let me punish you or I will leave."

In fact, I would think that once a sub said she didn't want that dynamic in the relationship, and the Dom said he couldn't live without it, then BOTH parties would agree that it's not in THEIR mutual best interest to continue a relationship.

So yes saying "let me do it or I will leave" is a form of blackmail, but no emotionally mature person would put it that way.  They would realize the relationship was not working out and end it.  I know I would rather have someone leave me than stay with me and endure things that make me happy but make them miserable. 



And how is that different from a sub/slave who has promised her obedience, knowing that to disobey is to end the relationship, who then is deliberately disobedient?

I was told it was "abusive" and "emotional blackmail" to respect her right to quit.

Yet here you are, saying that it is okay for a dom in a punishment-driven relationship to respect the right of a sub/slave to quit by refusing to be punished.

Why are the standards for ending a relationship of your preferred dynamic acceptable and the standards for ending a relationship in my M/s called "abusive" and "emotional blackmail"?




xoxi -> RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? (10/1/2007 8:18:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin
And how is that different from a sub/slave who has promised her obedience, knowing that to disobey is to end the relationship, who then is deliberately disobedient?

I was told it was "abusive" and "emotional blackmail" to respect her right to quit.

Yet here you are, saying that it is okay for a dom in a punishment-driven relationship to respect the right of a sub/slave to quit by refusing to be punished.

Why are the standards for ending a relationship of your preferred dynamic acceptable and the standards for ending a relationship in my M/s called "abusive" and "emotional blackmail"?



Because you consider the act of disobedience to be asking you to break up with her.

I am referring to a conversation that discusses the dynamics of the relationship, where one person says "this [punishment] isn't working for me anymore, is it possible to continue a relationship without that dynamic" and the other person says either "yes we can try that" or "no I'm afraid I would no longer be fulfilled." (and either person can initiate that conversation - it's just as easy for a D-type to get sick of the dynamic as it is for a s-type)

That is in stark contrast to a woman refusing to get you your coffee and you taking that to mean she wants to break up with you.  In fact the way you presented it WAS what you termed emotional blackmail, i.e. "do what I want or I will leave you" whereas I am talking about discussing the relationship as two consenting adults and letting each partner know what is and what isn't working for them.

Do you see the difference?



Bobkgin -> RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? (10/1/2007 8:22:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: trappedinamuseum

So, if you didn't hear about it, does the question even merit an answer?  Obviously, this way of life does not affect you in any way, shape or form, as you do not live it.  So, why do you seek an answer for it?  Obviously no one else is wondering about this conumdrum...why waste the effort?


I've never found the process of understanding a strange concept to be a "waste of effort".

As for what others think ... seriously, have you talked to everyone who has read this thread to make such a statement?

Personally I don't worry about what others think about the merits of the various contributions. They can get or reject whatever they wish out of this.

quote:


And, I only suggested ending the relationship if both parties cannot agree on punishment.  If the Dominant demands punishment, and the submissive refuses and he relents, has not the entire dynamic of the relationship been ruined?  What is the point then of keeping the relationship?


I agree.

But apparently there are some who believe I'm spineless if I do not punish a woman who quits a relationship.



MadRabbit -> RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? (10/1/2007 8:24:28 PM)

Okay...I cant resist...I just GOTTA....

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

But earlier today punishment advocates were saying that everyone makes mistakes throughout their life, and that every mistake a sub/slave makes must be punished, which means these sub/slaves can expect to be punished for the rest of their lives.


Please provide quotes where people have said a slave MUST be punished for a mistake, Bob. No one has said that, Bob. At best, people have said punishment is a tool for correcting bad behavior. Once again, you are just making shit up. Its hard to argue with delusions.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin
That doesn't sound to me like a lot of "change, mature and grow". Granted, some mistakes might not be repeated, but new ones are expected to occur to take their places.


And yet the descent into the Realm of King Bob continues...where all logic, reality, and written word are distorted and corrupted....twisted and rehashed into something that bares no resemblence to anything said in this post. No one said anything about new ones being expected to take their place, at least, not from what I have read. I have read arguments that to expect a human being to achieve a level of perfection where no mistakes will ever be made is insanity. The "new mistakes" people reference might be a mistake with cooking biscuits when the old mistake that was corrected was dropping a glass of water.

Further more, Bob, if punishment does in fact provide correction to a bad behavior, then that is in fact, progress in "growing, changing, and maturing.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

And some have said that they need punishment to feel absolved of the guilt they feel having disappointed their d/m. But none talked of outgrowing it, as if they never would.


I am pretty Bob that is a human being stopped feeling guilt when they did something they knew to be wrong or bad that would be a step towards "growing" into a sociopath.

Trying to teach someone to outgrow guilt they naturally feel when they do something wrong or bad makes about as much as sense to me....as well...everything else you have written in this thread.

Personally, when I do something wrong and feel guilty about it, I strive to not do the thing that made me feel guilty as opposed to trying to "outgrow" feeling guilty when I do the bad thing.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin
And it doesn't sound like their d/ms are invested in helping them outgrow this need for punishment to absolve their guilt.


Based on your conjecture that it is somehow a bad thing or a human flaw. It sounds...well...pretty normal to me to feel guilty when you done something bad and search for a way to reconcile the wrong thing so one doesnt feel guilty anymore.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

While suppose the above can be hoped for, I do not hear a whole lot about punishment-drive d/ms training their sub/slaves to no longer need punishment.


If the punishment provides proper correction to the bad behavior and the bad behavior is not repeated, then the punishment in itself is trainig the sub/slave to no longer need punishment. If the bad behavior isnt repeated, then there is no need for punishment.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

Which sounds to me like they would rather end the relationship than give up their need to punish.



No, Bob. Thats what your infering. Its very simple logic. If one enters into a power exchange relationship and agrees to give up authority to another to make rules and enforce those threw punishment, then a slave breaking the rules, then deciding to not accept the punishment is basically bringing the relationship to a grinding halt.

Its not a whole lot different then your willingness to throw a way a relationship rather than turn off a lamp.

Only more practicial..



trappedinamuseum -> RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? (10/1/2007 8:26:39 PM)

It is only a waste of effort if you continue to travel in circles.





MadRabbit -> RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? (10/1/2007 8:30:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: trappedinamuseum

It is only a waste of effort if you continue to travel in circles.



The idea of people actually listening to Bobgkin bothers me enough to post a rebuttal here and there.



Bobkgin -> RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? (10/1/2007 8:35:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: xoxi

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin
And how is that different from a sub/slave who has promised her obedience, knowing that to disobey is to end the relationship, who then is deliberately disobedient?

I was told it was "abusive" and "emotional blackmail" to respect her right to quit.

Yet here you are, saying that it is okay for a dom in a punishment-driven relationship to respect the right of a sub/slave to quit by refusing to be punished.

Why are the standards for ending a relationship of your preferred dynamic acceptable and the standards for ending a relationship in my M/s called "abusive" and "emotional blackmail"?



Because you consider the act of disobedience to be asking you to break up with her.


No. Because I and my slave have agreed that deliberate disobedience is a decision to end the relationship.

Just as a d/m and sub/slave in a punishment-driven relationship agree that punishment is an indispensable part of their relationship.

quote:


I am referring to a conversation that discusses the dynamics of the relationship, where one person says "this [punishment] isn't working for me anymore, is it possible to continue a relationship without that dynamic" and the other person says either "yes we can try that" or "no I'm afraid I would no longer be fulfilled." (and either person can initiate that conversation - it's just as easy for a D-type to get sick of the dynamic as it is for a s-type)


Not according to Padriag, or Prop.

quote:


That is in stark contrast to a woman refusing to get you your coffee and you taking that to mean she wants to break up with you. 


You have yet to explain the innocent motive behind such a decision when the woman agreed that deliberate disobedience ends the relationship.

You have yet to explain why she would believe deliberate disobedience would not end the relationship, when she agreed this was to be the case if she ever deliberately disobeyed.

quote:


In fact the way you presented it WAS what you termed emotional blackmail, i.e. "do what I want or I will leave you" whereas I am talking about discussing the relationship as two consenting adults and letting each partner know what is and what isn't working for them.

Do you see the difference?


I'm afraid not. Too much fabrication on your part to see anything resembling reality, including that last bit about "emotional blackmail". I've made very clear repeatedly that my slaves have always been given the instruction to come to me with problems, including problems with the relationship. There is no need for deliberate disobedience to initiate the discussion you are talking about above.

If she is deliberately disobeying me it is because she has chosen to forego the conversation and go straight to quitting (which she knew would be the outcome of such a decision since before she chose to offer herself to me as slave).

You simply refuse to accept that two consenting adults can agree to such terms and be held to them. You insist on labelling it "abusive" and "emotional blackmail".

I thought you were one of those who argued that anything two consenting adults agree to cannot, de facto, be "abusive".

And how can it be "emotional blackmail" to respect a women's decision to deliberately quit a relationship?





WinsomeDefiance -> RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? (10/1/2007 8:37:22 PM)

I think I first coined that phrase "emotional blackmail" unless it was discussed earlier in the thread.

I said that I would feel emotionally blackmailed if my security was held hostage contingent upon my ability to submit perfectly.  I can't imagine anyone I would submit to, that wouldn't mean the WORLD to me.  If I knew that my world and security was so fragile as to hinge upon my perfection - I would never have any confidence in its longevity.  I desire to do well, I strive to do my best, but one bad day could end it.   Such a dynamic IS emotional blackmail in my mind.  You are saying, be perfect or leave.  Perfection is unattainable, in my mind. 

WILLFUL disobedience.  Refusal to try.  Refusal to accept my dominants authority over me...is a completely DIFFERENT mindset.  It is a slap in the face of authority.

On one hand you have someone who LIVES with the fear of failure but strives to do her best despite the dark looming spectre of hopelessness and on the other you have someone who refuses to accept that authority and has removed her consent and thus expressed a desire to no longer be IN the relationship.

I understand that you cannot comprehend this, because you only have one expression of submission by which to accept from your slave and that is Prove YOUR love fror ME by never failing me in your submission, and so in your mind her failing to do so IS a slap in your face and a refusal to submit.  You have stated that you abdicate your authority by having "suggestions" that you offer to your submissive.  I'm not sure exactly what she is agreeing to submit too, since all she has to do is say Yes Dear, to you but do as she wishes regarding all your 'suggestions'.  I'm sure that would not be difficult at all for someone to adhere to so I don't see a problem for you in all honesty.  Now that I better understand your method of Dominance, I no longer think you are emotionally blackmailing your submissive/slaves at all.  I think you would barely qualify as a service Top, honestly. 



Alumbrado -> RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? (10/1/2007 8:39:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: trappedinamuseum

It is only a waste of effort if you continue to travel in circles.





Deja and vu



Bobkgin -> RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? (10/1/2007 8:47:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: WinsomeDefiance

I think I first coined that phrase "emotional blackmail" unless it was discussed earlier in the thread.

I said that I would feel emotionally blackmailed if my security was held hostage contingent upon my ability to submit perfectly.  I can't imagine anyone I would submit to, that wouldn't mean the WORLD to me.  If I knew that my world and security was so fragile as to hinge upon my perfection - I would never have any confidence in its longevity.  I desire to do well, I strive to do my best, but one bad day could end it.   Such a dynamic IS emotional blackmail in my mind.  You are saying, be perfect or leave.  Perfection is unattainable, in my mind. 


I've addressed this exercise in hyperbole several times already, Charlotte.

quote:


WILLFUL disobedience.  Refusal to try.  Refusal to accept my dominants authority over me...is a completely DIFFERENT mindset.  It is a slap in the face of authority.

On one hand you have someone who LIVES with the fear of failure but strives to do her best despite the dark looming spectre of hopelessness and on the other you have someone who refuses to accept that authority and has removed her consent and thus expressed a desire to no longer be IN the relationship.

I understand that you cannot comprehend this, because you only have one expression of submission by which to accept from your slave and that is Prove YOUR love fror ME by never failing me in your submission, and so in your mind her failing to do so IS a slap in your face and a refusal to submit.  You have stated that you abdicate your authority by having "suggestions" that you offer to your submissive.  I'm not sure exactly what she is agreeing to submit too, since all she has to do is say Yes Dear, to you but do as she wishes regarding all your 'suggestions'.  I'm sure that would not be difficult at all for someone to adhere to so I don't see a problem for you in all honesty.  Now that I better understand your method of Dominance, I no longer think you are emotionally blackmailing your submissive/slaves at all.  I think you would barely qualify as a service Top, honestly. 


Not bad, for fiction.

Apparently I misjudged you, Charlotte.

I thought you had a better grasp of reality than this.



WinsomeDefiance -> RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? (10/1/2007 8:51:43 PM)

o.0



Bobkgin -> RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? (10/1/2007 9:02:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: WinsomeDefiance

o.0


You obviously have no clue what my M/s is about, as your litle work of fiction demonstrates quite clearly.

You spend far too much time announcing judgment over things you clearly don't understand, and spend almost no time learning anything about the stuff you judge.

Earlier today you were claiming I was "emotionally blackmailing" any slave who disobeyed me. Now you claim I am not "emotionally blackmailing" anyone.

What a difference just a few hours make in your judgments. Rather obvious you haven't got a clue what is true, you just hurl out judgments with as little thought invested in them as possible.

As I said, not bad for fiction.

A pity, really, as I'd grown to give your contributions more thought than most.

But you are no more mature than so many others here.



WinsomeDefiance -> RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? (10/1/2007 9:14:00 PM)

Bob, I'm sorry my words struck such a chord in you, that you feel compelled to be so offensive.  Yes, with a better understanding of where you were coming from (which you claim I don't have) I changed my original opinion. 






ModeratorEleven -> RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? (10/1/2007 10:29:13 PM)

This is clearly going nowhere.

XI



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