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RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? - 9/29/2007 7:51:13 AM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
No wonder you need to "withdraw" when faced with adversity or challenge.
lol

Merc, anyone who reads the "Safe Punishment" thread will see you dropped out of it, only to try and re-argue it here after trying to misrepresent my position which was very clearly stated through several unquoted posts in the "Safe Punishment" thread.
I take that as a reflection of your opinion of the intelligence of your audience.
I think of mine as being smarter than that.
Which is why your claims merit so little attention from me.
You are welcome to fool as many stupid, gullible people as you can.
I know your goal is to only fool two right? I must admit, it had been a while since I had the opportunity for more than an evening. However, after this weekend and taking a third into consideration and having her join us at Folsom Fringe and Street Fair - I'll grant you that the experience its a worthy goal. My best that someday you obtain it too.

But I was amazed to find you admit that you are playing to an audience. Really - You play to an audience? Didn't realize you come here for validation. Now your posts are much more understandable.

Dropped out of the other thread? Pontificating, and the exchange of gratuitous accolades with others lacking actual experience doesn't warrant a post. Besides, what was to discuss? The bottom line was represented. You "withdraw" your dominance at the first sign of disobedience. What's left to discuss? Your rationalizations made and make no sense.

You "train" by silence and withdraw. I understand the concept. You had to form a new thread just to try to spin that concept. Me and other people were supposed to forget and "withdraw" from the memory of what you posted before? I wouldn't have posted to the other thread at all if someone, it happened to be you, portrayed so ridiculous an idea as "withdraw" as a method of training. You questioned yourself asking if others would consider it punishment. I'm sorry if you are so confused, and have so little practical experience to lack the confidence to now stand behind your position. No response only accusation. At least this time you didn't resort to name calling. Back to 'blocking' and peeking between the fingers in the future?

How weak is your own believe if instead of challenging the assertions you need to discount them? They aren't "claims" they are observations of your own words.

You "withdraw" when challenged.
You "mold" but the slave must not only spin their own wheel but come up with a design meeting your approval without your input, beyond the initial discussion.
You'd rather have a slave beat up themselves and suffer your silent withdraw than address and impact the situation head on.
It is said that a Dominant or Master can't, and shouldn't be a mind reader. I take it you don't believe that. Here you are saying that  slave or submissive should be, because if they've "stopped being a slave" in some form or fashion, you are just going to "stop being a Dom". What else can be said regarding that position?

Now the "spin" thread - "Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive?"

Your words follow you Bob. You shouldn't be so afraid of them showing up. Hypocrisy and fraud are displayed in self contradiction. The conflict contained in them is yours. Your "audience"? You are the first I've read here to be concerned with image. But do continue, you bring much entertainment to the table.

< Message edited by Mercnbeth -- 9/29/2007 8:51:55 AM >

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RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? - 9/29/2007 8:00:34 AM   
RRafe


Posts: 2060
Joined: 8/29/2007
Status: offline 		Uh huh. it's pretty pathetic when a person has to run away from the consequences of themselves.

I somehow have difficulty in seeing cowardice as "Mastery"

Well put Merc.

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RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? - 9/29/2007 8:18:17 AM   
defiantbadgirl


Posts: 2988
Joined: 11/14/2005
Status: offline 		Everyone has their own definition of abusive. Abuse to me may not be abuse to someone else. If a Dom were to punish me in a caring way by telling me what I did wrong, spanking me hard, and then hugging me close until I calmed down, I would not consider this abuse at all. If a Dom were to inflict pain and put me in a corner, completely ignoring my tears, I would throw his collar at him and walk out.

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RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? - 9/29/2007 8:25:22 AM   
sexyred1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

Wow....and here I was hoping for something hot...(and no, please don't follow with a picture of a blow torch). I can't believe I actually fell for that and clicked.....


Me too, I thought there would be some hot tools for punishment...:)

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RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? - 9/29/2007 8:41:31 AM   
MadRabbit


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
practical experience


Isnt posting practical experience against TOS for these forums?

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(in reply to Mercnbeth)
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RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? - 9/29/2007 8:43:20 AM   
RRafe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
practical experience


Isnt posting practical experience against TOS for these forums?


I dunno............those who can-do?

Those who can't, talk about it?

hmmmmm

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RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? - 9/29/2007 8:49:08 AM   
FullCircle


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Status: offline 		Did someone say TOS? I love that word as an acronym and British slang.

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RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? - 9/29/2007 10:39:09 AM   
daddysprop247


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From: DC Metro area
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

So would I be correct in saying that what you two are doing are using punishment as a method for creating the ideal psychological milieu for your relationship?


change "punishment" to "fear", and yes that would be accurate. but punishment specifically has purposes beyond instilling fear...some of which i've outlined previously in this thread. the fear itself though is a necessary component of our dynamic. i cannot envision myself in a M/s dynamic without fear...i would feel far too secure, comfortable (lazy), and have no respect for the Master. basically i might as well be in a "spicy" vanilla dynamic.

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RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? - 9/29/2007 10:39:31 AM   
CreativeDominant


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DocRudy

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that if you're the type of person that sees spanking a child on the behind as abuse... then you will see punishment in the BDSM context as abuse, as well.

There's always varying degrees of anything in life, however, I firmly believe that just because someone is made to feel pain, discomfort, embarassment, etc., it does not necessarily equate to abuse.

A polite letter requesting corrective action is rarely cause for someone to actually correct their actions. 

-DR


I'm assuming your response was to someone else because I have never noted on this thread or any other punishment threads that I have a problem with spanking ums as punishment or for correction of behavior.  Ask either of my two adult ums whether or not their father's hand ever met their ass...they will definitely answer in the affirmative. 

As for corporal punishment in the D/s dynamic...as I have stated before, I would rather come at it from a different aspect than the physical one but I do not totally shy away from the physical either.

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RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? - 9/29/2007 10:44:45 AM   
DocRudy


Posts: 153
Joined: 9/19/2007
Status: offline 		Creative,
Apologies, I wasn't directing my comment towards you and didn't mean to make it seem that way. I'm still acclimating to the way this forum cares about which "reply" button you click on. :(

-DR

(in reply to CreativeDominant)
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RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? - 9/29/2007 10:49:41 AM   
daddysprop247


Posts: 1712
Joined: 6/24/2005
From: DC Metro area
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

Are you sure it is fear and not awe?



it is both. actually, reverence is one form of fear, and i very much revere my Master, much the way a religious person may revere a deity. i've expressed this before. in my little world, he is all-powerful, where i am helpless. i am utterly dependent on him, for all the basic necessities of life...food, shelter, breath, friendship, sanity...at any moment he has the power to take any of these things away, and he never allows me to forget that.

but beyond reverence i fear the Man himself, because i know and understand him so well. i fear his rages, when something in his world has pressed the wrong buttons...i fear his lusts, which sometimes drive him to subject me to all manner of unsafe, frightening things...and of course i fear the consequences when i know i have done something to warrant punishment. but again, for our dynamic these are all healthy fears which help to keep the unit strong.


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RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? - 9/29/2007 10:54:44 AM   
FullCircle


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Joined: 11/24/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

Through the various punishment threads the theme seems to be:

1. sub/slave breaks a rule.
2. sub/slave needs physical punishment to learn not to break the rule.

What this says to me is:
1. sub/slave is not devoted to obeying her d/m
2. sub/slave is too stupid to learn by any other means than brute force.

Bottom line: to be a better d/m, and to get a more obedient sub/slave, frighten your sub/slave with punishment and the threat of punishment.

In another punishment thread I said:

quote:


As I don't believe in punishment, I don't really see a difference between an "infraction" and an "excuse for sadism".

They both seem to be a way of loading any guilt the d/m is feeling about being sadistic on the back of the submissive.

It's like saying "you've made me angry" when the truth is I choose whether I will respond with anger or something else to whatever is done to me or around me.

Do you see where I am going with this? It's akin to abusive husbands who blame the beatings on their wives' behaviour.


Agree? Disagree? Why?



Disagree.

D/s is just a way of making BDSM more socially acceptable: Discuss.

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RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? - 9/29/2007 10:57:12 AM   
breatheasone


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quote:

D/s is just a way of making BDSM more socially acceptable: Discuss.

Umm..what?...since when is D/s socially acceptable?


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RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? - 9/29/2007 11:03:33 AM   
CreativeDominant


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Joined: 3/11/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DocRudy

Creative,
Apologies, I wasn't directing my comment towards you and didn't mean to make it seem that way. I'm still acclimating to the way this forum cares about which "reply" button you click on. :(

-DR


Thanks for clearing that up, Doc.

Back to Bob...I noticed that you did not answer those, including myself and MadRabbit, who've found your posts here to be completely contradictory to your posts in the No-Limits thread.  Why is that?

As Merc has noted, you have this tendency to pontificate and that is fine...while boring...when your views match up.  But it is difficult to understand how one can state that...in his opinion...that there can be such a thing as no limits, that boundaries are set by individuals in a dynamic, whatever they choose to do in that dynamic is fine as long as it is agreed upon (no limits), and yet...AND YET, come on this thread and state that in his opinion, punishment other than withdrawal leads to fear and therefore is wrong.  First, the idea of punishment leading to fear of her dominant within her is not a universally recognized concept, as evidenced by many answers on here; even when it is, it does not always seem to detract from the love/admiration/trust of the dominant.  Second, how can anyone who states that the idea of "No limits" is fine by them as long as it is agreed to even have the nerve then to question the rightness of punishment in other dynamics?

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RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? - 9/29/2007 11:03:37 AM   
FullCircle


Posts: 5713
Joined: 11/24/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: breatheasone

quote:

D/s is just a way of making BDSM more socially acceptable: Discuss.

Umm..what?...since when is D/s socially acceptable?



OK.... D/s is just a way of trying to make BDSM more socially acceptable: Discuss.

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RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? - 9/29/2007 11:08:55 AM   
breatheasone


Posts: 4004
Joined: 7/14/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle

quote:

ORIGINAL: breatheasone

quote:

D/s is just a way of making BDSM more socially acceptable: Discuss.

Umm..what?...since when is D/s socially acceptable?



OK.... D/s is just a way of trying to make BDSM more socially acceptable: Discuss.

Ok...I think you may be right to a point....people NEED reasons why things are done...and if a D/s relationship EXPLAINS certain things(in this case BDSM)....no matter how distatsteful(to the vanilla world) the reason...its generally at least accepted as a reason


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RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? - 9/29/2007 11:23:28 AM   
FullCircle


Posts: 5713
Joined: 11/24/2005
Status: offline 		It seems some need reasons or to put it in the form of a lesson learned. The question is how many times do you need to learn the same lesson? Is it a journey of discovery and what are you discovering exactly? Others are just sadists or masochists and don’t see themselves as anything else.

Slave enjoys being spanked, therefore slave will misbehave, therefore don’t spank slave right? It’s a quandary sometimes as to who is leading who in the relationship.  Was this why corner time was invented but then someone is bound to enjoy that too. Oh well never mind.

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RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? - 9/29/2007 11:28:39 AM   
breatheasone


Posts: 4004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle

It seems some need reasons or to put it in the form of a lesson learned. The question is how many times do you need to learn the same lesson? Is it a journey of discovery and what are you discovering exactly? Others are just sadists or masochists and don’t see themselves as anything else.

Slave enjoys being spanked, therefore slave will misbehave, therefore don’t spank slave right? It’s a quandary sometimes as to who is leading who in the relationship.  Was this why corner time was invented but then someone is bound to enjoy that too. Oh well never mind.

One of the FIRST things Master and I made VERY clear is that our need for physical punishment (Him giving, me receiving) DID NOT need to be directly related to bad behavior on my part. If Master feels like beating me...He just does. Period. This removes the need for me to "act out" to get the beatings I desire.


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RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? - 9/29/2007 11:31:03 AM   
velvetears


Posts: 2933
Joined: 6/19/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant


Back to Bob...I noticed that you did not answer those, including myself and MadRabbit, who've found your posts here to be completely contradictory to your posts in the No-Limits thread.  Why is that?

As Merc has noted, you have this tendency to pontificate and that is fine...while boring...when your views match up.  But it is difficult to understand how one can state that...in his opinion...that there can be such a thing as no limits, that boundaries are set by individuals in a dynamic, whatever they choose to do in that dynamic is fine as long as it is agreed upon (no limits), and yet...AND YET, come on this thread and state that in his opinion, punishment other than withdrawal leads to fear and therefore is wrong.  First, the idea of punishment leading to fear of her dominant within her is not a universally recognized concept, as evidenced by many answers on here; even when it is, it does not always seem to detract from the love/admiration/trust of the dominant.  Second, how can anyone who states that the idea of "No limits" is fine by them as long as it is agreed to even have the nerve then to question the rightness of punishment in other dynamics?


Well CD i wouldn't hold my breath waiting.  i remember that no limits thread and Bob's posts and as i read this thread it just didn't add up in my mind.  Maybe Bob likes playing devils advocate and nothing he says is truly his view point.  That would make sense more then anything. 

i would love to see how he will make sense out of supporting no limts yet believe fear and punishment are not healthy dyamics in an M/s relationship.  It is frustrating and rather tedious to not see questions answered but i guess he can pick and choose what questions to answer that will support his stand and avoid the ones that maybe are more challenging. 

Bob, if you're out there can you at least address this: how can anyone who states that the idea of "No limits" is fine by them as long as it is agreed to even have the nerve then to question the rightness of punishment in other dynamics?(bolded above in CD's original post)




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RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? - 9/29/2007 11:32:51 AM   
BlackKnight


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Status: offline 		speaking of punishment and abuse, anyone want some abuse right now? punishment?

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Profile   Post #: 180
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