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RE: Woman Chokes Herself To Death On Handcuffs??? - 9/30/2007 10:48:27 AM   
EvilGenie


Posts: 1323
Joined: 9/10/2007
From: Morocco and Maine occasionally
Status: offline 		Ok, whatever. I can see that intelligent debate/discussion and one's own views and thoughts will not be respected on this thread. Discuss away, me and my x-ray helmet are going now. Perhaps you should read other posts where no brain power was registered on the gray matter meter, since I seem to have all of these handy gadgets, why not one of those too?

Be Well All!

EG

(in reply to Alumbrado)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Woman Chokes Herself To Death On Handcuffs??? - 9/30/2007 10:50:04 AM   
Gwynvyd


Posts: 4949
Status: offline 		Greetings all,

I will play what apears to be devils advocate on here since all assume this woman was in her right mind.

Having been an law enforcement officer simply backing away and letting them settle down does not always work. If they are being disruptive to the point of harming themselves, or others, or causing such a disturbance that they will not remove themselves from it willingly... actions must be taken to remove them from the situation. A normal thinking person will not turn themselves into a pretzel to get out of handcuffs. You have to basicaly dislocate your shoulder to do it. Damn painful. You can do the over the head thing and dislocate the shoulders... or try to do the under and through both legs thing. You have to be thin and very flexible for that. I am betting she was wearing a jacket of some sort that strangled her in her frantic attempts to get out of the handcuffs.

Missing a flight is no reason to go that bat shit. A normal thinking person once in custody will calm the hell down. Aparently she was none to bright. No you do not have the right to fight. If you are taken into to custody, you have the right to sit down, shut up and wait to be seen by a judge to clear everything up. Simply dont make it any harder on yourself by becoming an ass, or a danger to yourself or those around you. It is tradgic she died. Some one some where will be blamed for it since people are never responsible for doing stupid things to themselves. Since she was going that nuts the safest thing for her to be in was cuffs. With out cuffs she could have taken a chair and banged it on the door, herself..or hurt her self in other ways that are much more common. How many people have been stupid enough to strangle themselves with trying to get out of handcuffs? Not a whole hell of a lot.

and leaving a person free to go crazy in a public place "for thier saftey" is simply not possible. Think of the lawsuits, and the public outcry that would happen when one of these crazy idiots grab a kid and hurt them, or a bystander. Or.. hurt themselves.. Why werent the cops there to protect them from themselves? Damned if you do.. damned if you dont.

Simply put Human beings are some of the stupidest irrational creatures on this whole planet. You do your damnest to protect them from themselves and each other and at the end of the day hope like hell it is enough.

Yes there are jerks out there that take the power they are given as officers and use it in awful ways. But if the public were to see < and no watching Cops does not count> on the whole how dreadful most of what they have to deal with is they would feel a lot different about the men and women in uniform who protect them.

I hope this gives folks a fuller or different outlook on what may have happened with this woman.

Gwyn

(in reply to EvilGenie)
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RE: Woman Chokes Herself To Death On Handcuffs??? - 9/30/2007 10:56:42 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

Are you going to let law enforcement borrow your magical X-ray/mind reading helmet, so they can instantly and flawlessly (i.e. no case file, no intake assessment, no diagnostic work) tell the difference between someone harmless in distress, and someone about to produce weapons and go on a rampage?

Because, believe it or not, they don't really cover that in the academy.



Considering that she's already been through the TSA checkpoint? I'd say it's pretty well established she's unarmed.



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Alumbrado)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Woman Chokes Herself To Death On Handcuffs??? - 9/30/2007 11:00:01 AM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline 		Wow, bravo. Well written, insightful and logical. Thank you!

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(in reply to Gwynvyd)
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RE: Woman Chokes Herself To Death On Handcuffs??? - 9/30/2007 11:01:02 AM   
PeterJay


Posts: 1220
Joined: 9/24/2006
Status: offline 		"Officers handcuffed her and took her to the holding room, where she kept screaming, authorities said. Hill said officers checked on her when she stopped screaming and found her unresponsive."
 
I still do not understand why she would need to remain handcuffed in a holding area. In a way they did leave her alone to cool down. But they didn't check on her until the screaming stopped and by then it was too late.   

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People fear death even more than pain. It's strange that they fear death. Life hurts a lot more than death. At the point of death, the pain is over. J. Morrison

(in reply to DiurnalVampire)
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RE: Woman Chokes Herself To Death On Handcuffs??? - 9/30/2007 11:02:38 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:


Yes there are jerks out there that take the power they are given as officers and use it in awful ways. But if the public were to see < and no watching Cops does not count> on the whole how dreadful most of what they have to deal with is they would feel a lot different about the men and women in uniform who protect them.

I hope this gives folks a fuller or different outlook on what may have happened with this woman.

Gwyn


Maybe she wasn't all that excited, but you know, that's what the form has for a checkoff box.

Where's the surveillance video is the first question they need to answer.

I still say she was choked to death by some idiot who thought they had a clue and fucked up trying to restrain her.

That said, let me point out that the "Good Cops" are NOT "Good" as long as they tolerate the presence of even one "Bad Cop".

Just "Going along to get along" makes you a "Bad Cop".

Once you clean up your own shit, THEN maybe you deserve the high ground.

Oh, and no cop protects anyone except themselves, regardless of what's printed on the side of the car. In fact, in New York State, litigation has proven there is no duty to protect any individual.



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Gwynvyd)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Woman Chokes Herself To Death On Handcuffs??? - 9/30/2007 11:04:41 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PeterJay

"Officers handcuffed her and took her to the holding room, where she kept screaming, authorities said. Hill said officers checked on her when she stopped screaming and found her unresponsive."

I still do not understand why she would need to remain handcuffed in a holding area. In a way they did leave her alone to cool down. But they didn't check on her until the screaming stopped and by then it was too late.


I don't buy the "Accident" hypothesis, in part because every law enforcement organization has VERY STRICT REGULATIONS regarding custody. Long ago "Best Practices" evolved to prevent exactly this occurence.

I'd like to see a copy of those rules in this case, myself.

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to PeterJay)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Woman Chokes Herself To Death On Handcuffs??? - 9/30/2007 11:04:51 AM   
ChicagoSwitchMal


Posts: 417
Joined: 9/9/2007
Status: offline 		I'm normally one to jump on the chance to critizes police. Power unchecked always becomes abusive so the microscope on them has it's purpose. But I just don't see it this time. They didn't taze her or use pepper spray. It seems like an appropriate level of force was used in subduing her. And by some freak of physics she found a way to kill herself. I don't think anyone could reasonably assume what happened was possible. Unless it turns out that she was choked by someone else and this is a cover up the cops get a pass on this one. I'm still completely stumped as to how this is possible though.

(in reply to Gwynvyd)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Woman Chokes Herself To Death On Handcuffs??? - 9/30/2007 11:05:14 AM   
cyberdude611


Posts: 2596
Joined: 5/7/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Sheesh, she freaked out over a missed flight?
But,...but,...didn't she have the "right" to hold up that flight?


Well a doctor in Seattle did a few months ago. He missed the flight and decided to call in a bomb threat thinking the plane will come back and he can then get on.

(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Woman Chokes Herself To Death On Handcuffs??? - 9/30/2007 11:05:41 AM   
velvetears


Posts: 2933
Joined: 6/19/2006
Status: offline 		If she was taken into custody for being a danger to others and or herself by the commotion she caused then the cops should have extended her that same right by proecting her from herself. If someone is acting irrational you don't leave them unattended.... period. 

Cops aren't all saints, nor are they required to be educated and they do abuse their power.   i have seen and even experienced their bully behavior.  i hope the family sues the pants off everyone involved. 

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RE: Woman Chokes Herself To Death On Handcuffs??? - 9/30/2007 11:06:04 AM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PeterJay

"Officers handcuffed her and took her to the holding room, where she kept screaming, authorities said. Hill said officers checked on her when she stopped screaming and found her unresponsive."
 
I still do not understand why she would need to remain handcuffed in a holding area. In a way they did leave her alone to cool down. But they didn't check on her until the screaming stopped and by then it was too late.   


It sounds as if she was just psychotic. Could be she was facing something unbearable for missing that flight, a Master who wasn't very understanding perhaps? Losing custody of a child? Who knows. It is a tragedy but it's also most likely just a freak accident.

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RE: Woman Chokes Herself To Death On Handcuffs??? - 9/30/2007 11:06:52 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		Remember how fast they published the video of the Secret Service Agent wiping up the floor unsatifactorially to spin the story?

I'm not seeing any video tape here? What? The don't have cameras in the departure lounges and/or security areas?

I don't buy it.



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to ChicagoSwitchMal)
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RE: Woman Chokes Herself To Death On Handcuffs??? - 9/30/2007 11:07:07 AM   
camille65


Posts: 5746
Joined: 7/11/2007
From: Austin Texas
Status: offline 		General question.

What should have been done if she was actually out of control?
What should have been done if she was just angry?

I'm not a cop and I didn't sleep at a Holiday Inn Express so I don't know the protocol.

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(in reply to PeterJay)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Woman Chokes Herself To Death On Handcuffs??? - 9/30/2007 11:09:04 AM   
ChicagoSwitchMal


Posts: 417
Joined: 9/9/2007
Status: offline 		Maybe she was OCD and THAT FLIGHT was very important. I knew an OCD who could barely go out. Bird flying the wrong way was enough reason for things not being "lined up" for him to step outside. Eh - this has nothing to do with the topic really. Sorry for interupting

(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Woman Chokes Herself To Death On Handcuffs??? - 9/30/2007 11:18:16 AM   
Gwynvyd


Posts: 4949
Status: offline 		Oh trust me.. once the "Good ones" find a bad apple in the bunch they are not there for long. Being technicaly a Govt. job it takes steps, and a while for them to be rooted out. But it does get done. We make thier lives a living hell in the mean time, and keep an eye on them.  

I am sorry you have had bad experiances in the past.. and maybe in your area the law enforcement deparments are a mess.  But where I am from we take pride in what we do... and that is protect and serve. Cause we sure as hell arent in it for the paycheck. ( I made more working for the Cable Company listening to folks bitch about thier bills )

Never underestimate the ability for people to be stupid. I think this woman was simply stupid.

Leaving a handcuffed person alone for 20-30 mins at a time is standard ops. They normaly are perfectly safe. They prob. hoped she would calm down.. aparently she was crazier then they ever dreamed.

In this country personal responsibility means nothing. It is always someone elses fault.
That is why so many jump to conclusions on things.

How many people blame thier parents for thier charictor flaws, being fat, or just a mean bastard? We should all take responsiblity for our own shit.

Gwyn

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Woman Chokes Herself To Death On Handcuffs??? - 9/30/2007 11:23:19 AM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: EvilGenie

Ok, whatever. I can see that intelligent debate/discussion and one's own views and thoughts will not be respected on this thread. Discuss away, me and my x-ray helmet are going now. Perhaps you should read other posts where no brain power was registered on the gray matter meter, since I seem to have all of these handy gadgets, why not one of those too?

Be Well All!

EG


The 'view' you posted was that police should be trained, as you allegedly are, to 'just know' without benefit of intake assessments or diagnostic tools, whether someone is a violent danger to others, or just in distress.

If you want to run away when asked to explain how that works, feel free.

(in reply to EvilGenie)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Woman Chokes Herself To Death On Handcuffs??? - 9/30/2007 11:43:39 AM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		it is plausable that she was sucking a big one- and the gag reflex went in gear?  shutup roger

(in reply to Alumbrado)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Woman Chokes Herself To Death On Handcuffs??? - 9/30/2007 12:38:24 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

Oh trust me.. once the "Good ones" find a bad apple in the bunch they are not there for long. Being technicaly a Govt. job it takes steps, and a while for them to be rooted out. But it does get done. We make thier lives a living hell in the mean time, and keep an eye on them.


That is in direct opposition from what I'm seeing in our locality. While that may be the spin of the PBA and Unions, it's not reality.

And you know what? You see a fellow cop assault a civilian, there's no "Government Job" bullshit. You arrest the fucker, just like you would arrest anyone found committing an assault.

You see a cop shake down a dealer, there's no "Government Job" bullshit. You arrest the fucker, just like you would arrest anyone found shaking down a dealer.

Either you arrest a fellow cop when you see them break the law, or YOU ARE NOT A "Good Cop", despite what you tell your children and yourself.

You see, having special privileges means you're held to a higher standard.




_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Gwynvyd)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Woman Chokes Herself To Death On Handcuffs??? - 9/30/2007 2:45:56 PM   
lazarus1983


Posts: 828
Joined: 2/25/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Gwynvyd

Oh trust me.. once the "Good ones" find a bad apple in the bunch they are not there for long. Being technicaly a Govt. job it takes steps, and a while for them to be rooted out. But it does get done. We make thier lives a living hell in the mean time, and keep an eye on them.  

I am sorry you have had bad experiances in the past.. and maybe in your area the law enforcement deparments are a mess.  But where I am from we take pride in what we do... and that is protect and serve. Cause we sure as hell arent in it for the paycheck. ( I made more working for the Cable Company listening to folks bitch about thier bills )

Never underestimate the ability for people to be stupid. I think this woman was simply stupid.

Leaving a handcuffed person alone for 20-30 mins at a time is standard ops. They normaly are perfectly safe. They prob. hoped she would calm down.. aparently she was crazier then they ever dreamed.

In this country personal responsibility means nothing. It is always someone elses fault.
That is why so many jump to conclusions on things.

How many people blame thier parents for thier charictor flaws, being fat, or just a mean bastard? We should all take responsiblity for our own shit.

Gwyn


Hear hear, Gwynvyd. Personal responsibility is lost these days. It is ALWAYS the cop's fault, and NEVER the "victim's" fault, for the simple reason that the "victim" would rather be a victim, as it gets them off the hook of owning up to their mistakes.

A society that harps on and on about their rights without balancing out their responsibilities is doomed to failure.

Most people do not see past the uniform, when they see a police officer. They can't seem to fathom that they are individuals. Ah well, let the small minded surround themselves with stereotypes, it's easier for them that way, than to look for individual worth.

(in reply to Gwynvyd)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Woman Chokes Herself To Death On Handcuffs??? - 9/30/2007 3:05:45 PM   
domiguy


Posts: 12952
Joined: 5/2/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Gwynvyd

Oh trust me.. once the "Good ones" find a bad apple in the bunch they are not there for long. Being technicaly a Govt. job it takes steps, and a while for them to be rooted out. But it does get done. We make thier lives a living hell in the mean time, and keep an eye on them.  

I am sorry you have had bad experiances in the past.. and maybe in your area the law enforcement deparments are a mess.  But where I am from we take pride in what we do... and that is protect and serve. Cause we sure as hell arent in it for the paycheck. ( I made more working for the Cable Company listening to folks bitch about thier bills )



I have no idea what happened to this woman...

However, I'm happy that things are going well for you in Naples....If you want to see police work at it's "finest" you should come work for the CPD....You would be working back at the cable company in less than 72 hours....On far to often of an occurrence I see the CPD's only interests are protecting and serving themselves.

< Message edited by domiguy -- 9/30/2007 3:10:18 PM >

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(in reply to Gwynvyd)
Profile   Post #: 40
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