Does Islam need a reform period? (Full Version)

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cyberdude611 -> Does Islam need a reform period? (10/4/2007 4:20:54 PM)

I mean this religion just doesnt seem to want to advance into the 21st century...they seem to want to roll back the clock.
 
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By Jay Price and Ali Omar al Basri, McClatchy Newspapers

BASRA, Iraq — Women in Basra have become the targets of a violent campaign by religious extremists, who leave more than 15 female bodies scattered around the city each month, police officers say.

 
Maj. Gen. Abdel Jalil Khalaf , the commander of Basra's police, said Thursday that self-styled enforcers of religious law threatened, beat and sometimes shot women who they believed weren't sufficiently Muslim.
 
"This is a new type of terror that Basra is not familiar with," he said. "These gangs represent only themselves, and they are far outside religious, forgiving instructions of Islam."
 
Often, he said, the "crime" is no more than wearing Western clothes or not wearing a head scarf.
 
Before the U.S.-led invasion in 2003, Iraqi women had had rights enshrined in the country's constitution since 1959 that were among the broadest of any Arab or Islamic nation. However, while the new constitution says that women are equal under the law, critics have condemned a provision that says no law can contradict the "established rulings" of Islam as weakening women's rights.
 
The vigilantes patrol the streets of Basra on motorbikes or in cars with dark-tinted windows and no license plates. They accost women who aren't wearing the traditional robe and head scarf known as hijab. Religious extremists in the city also have been known to attack men for clothes or even haircuts deemed too Western.
 
Like all of southern Iraq , Basra is populated mostly by Shiite Muslims, so sectarian violence isn't a major problem, but security has deteriorated as Shiite militias fight each other for power. British troops in the area pulled out last month.
 
Khalaf, who has a reputation for outspokenness in a city where that can get you killed, scoffed at the groups, calling them no better than criminal gangs. He said he didn't care if some were affiliated with the militias, he planned to crack down on them.
 
"If there is a red line related to the insurgents and militias, we will pass it over, because it's one of the factors that destroy the society," he said.
The violence is displacing the few members of religious minorities in the area. Fuad Na'im , one of a handful of Christians left in the city, said Thursday that the way his wife dressed made the whole family a target.
 
"I was with my wife few days ago when two young men driving a motorbike stopped me and asked her about her clothes and why she doesn't wear hijab," he said. "When I told them that we are Christians, they beat us badly, and I would be dead if some people nearby hadn't intervened."
That was enough, he said.
 
"I'm about to leave the city where I was born and where my father and grandfather were buried, because I can't live in a place where we're asked about our clothes, food and drink."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/mcclatchy/20071004/wl_mcclatchy/20071004bcusiraqwomen_attn_national_foreign_editors_ytop




Level -> RE: Does Islam need a reform period? (10/4/2007 4:32:06 PM)

I've said before, I think Islam, overall, is about 400-500 years behind Christianity.




Politesub53 -> RE: Does Islam need a reform period? (10/4/2007 4:38:25 PM)

So how do you explain ww1 and ww2 ?  Islam has always been different to the west and a lot of the times more tolerent.




Level -> RE: Does Islam need a reform period? (10/4/2007 4:47:37 PM)

I don't see Christianity as the cause of either world war.
 
Islam has indeed had it's periods of tolerance, and it certainly has good people in its midst now, but in general, its growth has been stunted.




popeye1250 -> RE: Does Islam need a reform period? (10/4/2007 5:10:40 PM)

I think all religions should be outlawed.




Sanity -> RE: Does Islam need a reform period? (10/4/2007 6:30:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

I think all religions should be outlawed.


Why stop there? All thinking that I don't personally find appropriate had ought to be outlawed.




Zensee -> RE: Does Islam need a reform period? (10/4/2007 7:57:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

I think all religions should be outlawed.


Outlawed is a bit much. But they could certainly do with less kissing up to.

A good start would be to remove the Vatican from the General Assembly of the UN. It does not even begin to pass muster as a "nation". It's not a nation, just denomination, last time I checked.


Z.

PS: It's fundamentalists in all religions that make trouble, not the flavour of the fairy tales they tell.




FatDomDaddy -> RE: Does Islam need a reform period? (10/4/2007 8:56:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

So how do you explain ww1 and ww2 ?  Islam has always been different to the west and a lot of the times more tolerent.


Well... In WWI, I think the Ottoman Turks aligned themselves with the Central Powers to run the Brits, French and Russians out of the Middle East,  destroy Christian Armenia and The Christian Kurds and sure up their hold on South East Europe thus rebuilding their crumbling Islamic Empire

And...

Then in WWII I think Iraq joined forces with the Nazis and Italians to again kick out the French and English and destroy the Zionist movements with the hopes of and Arab Islamic Empire instead of a Turkish one.




cloudboy -> RE: Does Islam need a reform period? (10/4/2007 9:17:46 PM)


The better question is how US policy has played into the hands Islamic Extremists. Fanatics often spring from a large scale war crime.

At least POL POT's spirit hasn't sprung from the desert.

At least there's no well organized Bolshevic Party ready to step into the power vaccuum.







Marc2b -> RE: Does Islam need a reform period? (10/4/2007 10:07:04 PM)

Does Islam need to undergo major reforms? Absolutely!

Are they the only religion (or nation, ideology, philosophy, political party, etc) that needs to undergo reform? Not by a long shot.

As for the Vatican not qualifying as a nation – I wonder, is there an official, internationally recognized, definition of what constitutes a nation? I don’t know off the top of my head. My understanding, however, is that the Vatican is recognized by treaty as an independent state.




luckydog1 -> RE: Does Islam need a reform period? (10/4/2007 10:07:25 PM)

Fat Dom, even more than that, in WW2, the emerging Egyptian Muslim extremist group "the Muslim Brotherhood"  was funded, armed, and trained by the Nazis.  Same folks who shot Nasser and helped OBL organise.




OrionTheWolf -> RE: Does Islam need a reform period? (10/4/2007 10:26:38 PM)

There are three branches. Check out the Sufi branch for one that has come into the 21st century. Check their origins and what other Muslims did to them.

Orion




Owner59 -> RE: Does Islam need a reform period? (10/4/2007 10:28:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

Does Islam need to undergo major reforms? Absolutely!

Are they the only religion (or nation, ideology, philosophy, political party, etc) that needs to undergo reform? Not by a long shot.

As for the Vatican not qualifying as a nation – I wonder, is there an official, internationally recognized, definition of what constitutes a nation? I don’t know off the top of my head. My understanding, however, is that the Vatican is recognized by treaty as an independent state.


Actually,they`ve never had a reformation,they way the two other sister religions have(Judaism and Christianity).

Though ,I`m not so arrogant that I would suggest that they have one, I would welcome it.

With bush/neo-cons in power,their version of the lunatic fringe ,only gets stronger.Which makes it less likely.To bad.




CuriousLord -> RE: Does Islam need a reform period? (10/4/2007 10:49:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity
quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

I think all religions should be outlawed.


Why stop there? All thinking that I don't personally find appropriate had ought to be outlawed.


Personally, I tend to be against things that involve lying to and manipulating children.  Both the lies spread about the religion itself and the more.. individualized.. lies that certain trusted clergy members might use for even more specific agendas.

But, that's just me.  I'd settle for seeing religions no longer tax exempt.




Owner59 -> RE: Does Islam need a reform period? (10/4/2007 11:01:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity
quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

I think all religions should be outlawed.


Why stop there? All thinking that I don't personally find appropriate had ought to be outlawed.


Personally, I tend to be against things that involve lying to and manipulating children.  Both the lies spread about the religion itself and the more.. individualized.. lies that certain trusted clergy members might use for even more specific agendas.

But, that's just me.  I'd settle for seeing religions no longer tax exempt.


 I'd settle for seeing religions no longer tax exempt.
 
That`s a good idea.





Marc2b -> RE: Does Islam need a reform period? (10/4/2007 11:04:35 PM)

quote:

Actually,they`ve never had a reformation,they way the two other sister religions have(Judaism and Christianity).

Yup. They are definitely overdue.

quote:

Though ,I`m not so arrogant that I would suggest that they have one, I would welcome it.

There’s nothing wrong with suggestions (I’m full of ‘em). Suggestions in and of themselves are harmless (some people’s responses to them might not be however, some people are so touchy) and don’t cost anything.

quote:

With bush/neo-cons in power,their version of the lunatic fringe ,only gets stronger.Which makes it less likely.To bad.

True. Competing ideologies often feed off of each other. Still, I am far from convinced that they would put down their weapons and give us hugs if we started meeting their demands. I’m a firm believer that if you give a mouse a cookie, he’s going to want a glass of milk.




Real0ne -> RE: Does Islam need a reform period? (10/4/2007 11:17:58 PM)



so what ever happened to live and let live?  reminds me of the henny penny meddling mother in law.

Then i suppose if we feel that we have the right to meddle in their lives its only fair that the elitists should set the standards and meddle in ours.




meatcleaver -> RE: Does Islam need a reform period? (10/5/2007 12:04:53 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

As for the Vatican not qualifying as a nation – I wonder, is there an official, internationally recognized, definition of what constitutes a nation? I don’t know off the top of my head. My understanding, however, is that the Vatican is recognized by treaty as an independent state.


The Vatican is recognized as a state not a nation. There are two thousand redsidents in Vatican city, none hold Vatican nationality. It is so small as to be pointless but even if the Pope held sway over all its members which it doesn't, many, if not most Catholics ignore papal edicts, Catholics wouldn't be the most powerful religious group. The most powerful religious group in the world at the moment are Christian fundementalists in the US. When the US has got them back in the box perhaps there is hope that the west can form a strategy against Islamic extremists that would help separate them from the Islamic masses. At the moment, US policy is giving the Islamic extremists sympathy amongst the Islamic masses.




NorthernGent -> RE: Does Islam need a reform period? (10/5/2007 12:07:02 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

so what ever happened to live and let live? 



Spot on, Real0ne.

There's no doubt that religious fundamentalism stunts the growth of a nation; it's a controlling mechanism that removes the environment for ideas to flourish, particularly ideas of individual liberty. You only have to take a look at contintental Europe in the 1500 and 1600s to see how devastating Christian religious fundamentalism was: this partly explains why England, Holland and France forged ahead at the expense of Spain and Italy, but particularly Germany which was devastated by the Christian organised chaos. Incidentally, during this period, Christians were prescribing reading the bible as a cure for illnesses which the Greeks and Muslims realised were natural diseases many centuries prior to this period. It's easy to forget that the hospital is a Muslim invention. We get carried away because Christian nations have enjoyed a 300 year period of religious tolerance and the associated prosperity, but it certainly wasn't always like that, and, at times, Christian nations were relatively backward. It's also worth mentioning that the Middle East is not a hotbed for Islamic fundamentalism: if you've been, you'll know this to be the case; if you take all your information from the bollocks served up by the media and associated business allies, you'll falsely believe otherwise: ignorance is bliss, I suppose.

But that's the plan: initiate chaos in the Middle East, watch them squabble, further their weakness, and pick off their resources; where they appear to be getting their act together, e.g. Iran 1953, then step in to overthrow the government in order to prevent strong, democratic and prosperous nations in the Middle East that are in a position to control trade in that region.

As for organised religion being redundant, I agree. It's sole use is as a catalyst for organisation and stability, but then we have that in the shape of government, family and work, so it's not providing anything we don't have: then there are the negative factors such as acting as a deterrent to innovation and ideas.




meatcleaver -> RE: Does Islam need a reform period? (10/5/2007 12:11:29 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

So how do you explain ww1 and ww2 ?  Islam has always been different to the west and a lot of the times more tolerent.


Well... In WWI, I think the Ottoman Turks aligned themselves with the Central Powers to run the Brits, French and Russians out of the Middle East,  destroy Christian Armenia and The Christian Kurds and sure up their hold on South East Europe thus rebuilding their crumbling Islamic Empire

And...

Then in WWII I think Iraq joined forces with the Nazis and Italians to again kick out the French and English and destroy the Zionist movements with the hopes of and Arab Islamic Empire instead of a Turkish one.


This is such a disingenous analysis if one can even call it an analysis rather than pure prejudice. The alignment of the Ottoman empire in WWI and the allying of some Arabs (by no means all) to the NAZIs was more to do with self preservation than any idea of Islam. The European powers along with the US had and have the biggest empires, no one calls them Christian empires, which they were and are.




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