RE: Abortion

RE: Abortion (Full Version)

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julietsierra -> RE: Abortion (10/7/2007 5:08:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: hermione83 Juliet, I have no idea how to make it say its replying to the one I'm replying to, I just hit reply at the end of the thread - nothing I said was geared to you. From what you've said, you didn't have any choices, and looks pretty extreme. I've been talking about abortion in general. I'm sorry for your heartache. Hugs! Thank you for your thoughts hermione, however, you do need to understand that what you say "in general" generally affects people specifically. So, when you consider generalized statements, it'd be kind of interesting to see if you could even begin to understand and acknowledge in your assertions the fact that specifics tend to wind up being more important than generalities in this discussion - at least to the people who have had to live through the specifics rather than being able to stand back without ever having had to get their hands dirty living life. juliet

dcnovice -> RE: Abortion (10/7/2007 5:10:28 PM)
Bernard Shaw, who moderated one of the Bush-Dukakis debates in 1988, raised a question that I'd like to pose to the abortion-is-murder posters: If abortion is murder, should a state that executes murderers also execute women who have abortions?

hermione83 -> RE: Abortion (10/7/2007 5:10:29 PM)
quote: I don't think there is an abortion "in general," though. I think there is a human face for each woman's decision whether to have an abortion or not. Juliet has shown that she made a well-reasoned decision. Why assume that others haven't? I am not pointing a finger at you, but I do see pro-life folks making a lot of assumptions about people and their bad motives. MSS In my OP, I said that if you CHOSE to have sex, etc, the consequences were on you. Apparently, with her, this was not the case. So, for the actual 99% of cases, like some specific ones above, I would truly feel like there were far better options than killing the child, even if they were very difficult. Otherwise, if it was a case of crime and violence, the decision on what they can now do to better a situation that's already wrong has to be made. My other reason for abortions was in an extreme case of emergency health problems in the case of mother or child.

julietsierra -> RE: Abortion (10/7/2007 5:20:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: hermione83 quote: I don't think there is an abortion "in general," though. I think there is a human face for each woman's decision whether to have an abortion or not. Juliet has shown that she made a well-reasoned decision. Why assume that others haven't? I am not pointing a finger at you, but I do see pro-life folks making a lot of assumptions about people and their bad motives. MSS In my OP, I said that if you CHOSE to have sex, etc, the consequences were on you. Apparently, with her, this was not the case. So, for the actual 99% of cases, like some specific ones above, I would truly feel like there were far better options than killing the child, even if they were very difficult. Otherwise, if it was a case of crime and violence, the decision on what they can now do to better a situation that's already wrong has to be made. My other reason for abortions was in an extreme case of emergency health problems in the case of mother or child. The point is hermione, that while my case was more extreme, a case could be made that what I did was merely for convenience. What you're suggesting is that someone else be put in charge of who determines convenience. To do that, I'd have had to do MORE damage to my children, go through a long court case, risking a late term abortion, or carry the baby to term. And IF my husband had been found innocent and the abortion was denied because it had been determined to be nothing more than a matter of convenience, I'd be gone now and worse, my children would be either in the care of their father or in foster care or separated due to adoption - that is everyone except my disabled child...She wouldn't stand much of a chance of being adopted, cared for and loved at all. juliet

domiguy -> RE: Abortion (10/7/2007 5:22:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: dcnovice Bernard Shaw, who moderated one of the Bush-Dukakis debates in 1988, raised a question that I'd like to pose to the abortion-is-murder posters: If abortion is murder, should a state that executes murderers also execute women who have abortions? quote: Me I would then insist that every police department would have to do a potential murder investigation for every single miscarriage that occurs in this country....If the woman in question was ordered to bed rest but had to go to work, smoked cigs, drank alcohol, exercised, Took any type of medication that might harm the "manbryo," or indulged in any type of an activity that placed her lil' adult at risk....Then she should face charges of at least "cell-slaughter" all the way up to potentially murder....I have to admit that the thought of millions and millions of women "lezzing" out in prison is kinda hot....But overall, Tis a ridiculous notion. Unfortunately if we execute them all...Then this would certainly remove the "hotness" aspect of all of these murdering mothers "lezzing" out in jail. Even though the cost of housing an inmate can exceed $40,000.00 annually I cannot help believe that the reward of them doin' each other outweighs the small monetary cost of their incarceration.

dcnovice -> RE: Abortion (10/7/2007 5:23:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: unownedkitty for the people for abortions have you thought about the baby? or is all the thought with the mother? These questions also brought Ehrenreich to mind: [I]t no longer seems to be good form to mention women themselves in discussions of abortion. In most of the antiabortion literature I have seen, women are so invisible that an uniformed reader might conclude that fetuses reside in artificially warmed tissue culture flasks or similar containers. It must be enormously difficult for the antiabortionist to face up to the fact that real fetuses can only survive inside women, who, unlike any kind of laboratory apparatus, have thoughts, feelings, aspirations, responsibilities, and, very often, checkbooks. Anyone who thinks for a moment about women's role in reproductive biology could never blithely recommend "adoption, not abortion," because women have to go through something unknown to fetuses or men, and that is pregnancy. From the point of view of a fetus, pregnancy is no doubt a good deal. But consider it for a moment from the point of view of the pregnant person (if "woman" is too incendiary and feminist a terms) and without reference to its potential issue. We are talking baout a nine-month bout of symptoms of varying severity, often includinjg nausea, skin discolorations, extreme bloating and swelling, insomnia, narcolepsy, hair loss, varicoe veins, hemorrhoids, indigestion, and irreversible weight ganin, and culminating in a physiological crisis which is occasionally fatal and almost always excruciatingly painful. If men were equally at risk for this condition--if they knew their bellies might swell as if they were suffering from end-stage cirrhosis, that they would have to go for nearly a year without a stiff drink, a cigarette, or even an aspirin, that they would be subject to fainting spells and unable to fight their way onto commuter trains--then I am certain that pregnancy would be no more controversial than emergency appendectomies. Barbara Ehrenreich, "Their Dilemma and Mine" in The Worst Years of Our Lives: Irreverent Notes From a Decade of Greed (HarperPerennial, 1991)

celticlord2112 -> RE: Abortion (10/7/2007 5:23:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LotusSong (...and celticlord2112- YOU are exactly the type of person I laugh at. Laugh louder then, little girl, so I can hear you.

MySweetSubmssive -> RE: Abortion (10/7/2007 5:31:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CuriousLord quote: ORIGINAL: MySweetSubmssive It's part of a human. I'm pushing your argument to a logical, if absurd, conclusion. But it's not a human; my argument doesn't apply to parts of a human, since it contends that the fetus is human. A fetus is a part of it's mother. It cannot live outside her, and therefore it cannot be considered to be seperate. That is an intellectual and moral mistake. This is part of the difficulty with abortion. It cannot be accurately compared to "killing a person" because that is qualitatively different. You cannot talk about a 50/50 shared decision between a woman and a man because -- like it or not -- they are not equally affected by a pregnancy. It's a neat debating tactic, if you can make it work. Let's see where it goes. quote: ORIGINAL: MySweetSubmssive You said that be alive was the criteria and that a fetus and a toddler were equivalent. Oh, no. I never stated that they were equivalent; I was contradicting the argument by a method similar to the one that you're trying to employ. You argued that they must be indepedent to matter, correct? My point was that a toddler isn't indepedent, so it's life is therefore worthless. (An absurd conclusion.) A toddler can be cared for by another person. And none of us are wholly independent. quote: ORIGINAL: MySweetSubmssive These are not the same. A toddler can be taken care of by someone other than it's mother. A first trimester baby cannot exist outside of it's mother. I'd like to point out here that, now, you're only arguing for abortion in the first trimester; the argument stands for the majority, or the middle and end of a pregnancy, despite this. You didn't say what period the argument was about, but that I am aware of no baby has lived outside it's mother's body before 21 or 22 weeks (or thereabouts) -- the vast majority of abortions occur before this time. If an injured man can't live without extensive medical devices hooked to him, but he'll eventually pull through and be able to make it on his own, is his life moot? Could you kill him then and be done with it? I don't see how this pertains to abortion. Again, the point I am trying to present is that a fetus or baby is wholly dependent on it's mother in utero and could not exist without her. Your analogy isn't relevant. quote: ORIGINAL: MySweetSubmssive A toddler is human, but a first trimester baby is ... I agree that it is alive, but I don't believe that human applies yet. With human DNA and the obviousness that it will become something that we can all agree is human without being interefered with (i.e., a coat hanger gouging it apart), I'd ask you better define why you see it as non-human for this assumption to work. Human is a quality, not a species. If you think that DNA makes something human then you have a problem with someone having their appendix removed, or would be horrified to masturbate and let your seed spill on the ground. quote: ORIGINAL: MySweetSubmssive I don't believe that humanity is present just because a sperm and an egg have come together. I don't know where I believe the line to be, but ... again ... there are distinctions between a fetus and a viable, independently functioning person. I'd suggest an existential approach. If you were frozen, at this point in time- your body now inanimate, never to move again, would you be human? To me, I'd say no. We're not the active formation, but the potential for it. In the same way, I'd argue that one in a temporary coma is also alive. At some point, we must recongize that "alive" isn't black and white. I'll give you that a fetus may not be as alive as you nor I; regardless, must one not concede that it carries the same potential for life that we define as being alive? Is it not a self-working system that can sustain itself in an appropriate environment? Granted, it's quite young and fragile, and exactly what this environment is far more constrained than what it could be for an adult, though we also have quite extraordinary requirements of our environment (being a large reason humans are found nearly exclusively on Earth, to the best of our knowledge). Sorry, you haven't moved me, intellectually or otherwise, with this. I see your mental acrobatics, but it doesn't contribute to what you are saying. quote: ORIGINAL: MySweetSubmssive If you truly believed that anything after conception was a human, you would be mourning continuously, as one third of abortions end in miscarriage, most before a woman even knows she is pregnant. I also know that children constantly starve to death in Africa. I'm used to the lives being lost, even if I don't welcome it. It's my hope that future society, almost certainly with the help of greater technology, will be able to fix much of this. Still, we accept life, or try to; for me, it's those shots at making it better that contribute greatly to the value of living. This looks like a dodge. My primary purpose on this thread is not to see who is the most clever or to trade abstruse arguments, but to shed light on why I think my stance a reasonable choice. I am also here to learn about people "on the other side" in a human way, attempting to be both intellectually and personally open to the other. I have a very dear friend who is in his heart against abortions. We have learned a lot from each other. Respectfully, I don't see that happening here with you. MSS

hermione83 -> RE: Abortion (10/7/2007 5:32:25 PM)
But I will say, having a dear friend, who was the product of rape, I think people should consider the fact that life has already started and all of that potential is there. I understand that at the time you're going through a great difficulty, one would want to cut their losses and run, and try to get every trace of that away from them and try to go to a happier, safer place in their mind where it never happened. But it has happened, it wasn't fair, and likewise, one day the child won't think the situation is fair either. In my mind, I don't think I could honestly ever let ending a life an option. I wouldn't want anyone to force anymore trauma on a woman, in that case, but I hope I would keep it. In that case, it's more of my religion speaking, so I don't think that should be law. I think there was a reason each life was made, and that soul was made in that instant, whether disabilities or not. I think it's understandable, but very sad to terminate a pregnancy because the child was thought to have a disability. Someone in my family was told that, for three out of four of her children. Only one of them has noticable defects now, but he is full of my life and my favorite. (He's four, the youngest). He can't really use one of his legs, and has a brace and a crutch, but boy can he move with that thing! My dad is a physical therapist and when I was a little girl, I noticed the children with disabilities I'd meet through him, but I learned a lot and became good friends with some of them. I'm glad that their parents let them live, and my BFF who's mom was raped to have her. I know they've enriched other people's lives and done some good! I know life is not black and white, and it is horrible thing to go through in anyone with a heart. In my own life, I will make things much less complicated on myself by remaining a virgin until if and when I'm married. (Unless, God forbid, I was raped.)

CuriousLord -> RE: Abortion (10/7/2007 5:34:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: dcnovice quote: If one of your family members killed a random stranger, would you not have a hard time calling them a murderer? You'd be no less accurate, you just don't like having to be mean. This analogy rests on the assumption that someone who's had an abortion is a murderer, and I don't buy that assumption. You said it was easier to call them murderers when you didn't have to talk to them, suggesting that I can't do it to their face because it's wrong. This was pointing out that it isn't because it's wrong, but because it's just not pleasant to have to tell someone you know that they've done something horrible.

hermione83 -> RE: Abortion (10/7/2007 5:37:45 PM)
quote: The point is hermione, that while my case was more extreme, a case could be made that what I did was merely for convenience. What you're suggesting is that someone else be put in charge of who determines convenience. To do that, I'd have had to do MORE damage to my children, go through a long court case, risking a late term abortion, or carry the baby to term. And IF my husband had been found innocent and the abortion was denied because it had been determined to be nothing more than a matter of convenience, I'd be gone now and worse, my children would be either in the care of their father or in foster care or separated due to adoption - that is everyone except my disabled child...She wouldn't stand much of a chance of being adopted, cared for and loved at all. I understand your view. I have not said exactly what the solution is for all my beliefs, as I would not like to force more trauma or time to be wasted, and I know the "system" sucks in other matters. I wish humanity was at the stage where gratuitious abortions would ever happen, or that people would never put their own life above their children's. I don't know what should be done, exactly. There are a lot of people in the world, and it'd be hard to prove a case, etc. But, I do know, that right now, things aren't working properly, either.

MySweetSubmssive -> RE: Abortion (10/7/2007 5:39:20 PM)
Can you please be more specific about what a "gratuitous abortion" is? MSS

hermione83 -> RE: Abortion (10/7/2007 5:46:27 PM)
quote: Can you please be more specific about what a "gratuitous abortion" is? MSS I meant that as abortion as a form of birth control. The most basic IMHO would be someone who is sexually active and uses no form of preventative birth control at all and does not want a child. There are few worse things I can think that a person could do. Taking a gamble that they won't have to suffer most of the consequences over. Seeking their own pleasure, and knowing that it's okay, they can have an abortion if it comes down to it. But, personally knowing that people get pregnant on contraceptive pills, and after vasectomies, tubal ligations, etc - if I get married and have sex, one of us will have surgery and be checked often, and still use at least another form of birth control that is also extremely effective, so our chances get into the infinitesimally low levels of risk.

CuriousLord -> RE: Abortion (10/7/2007 5:56:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MySweetSubmssive My primary purpose on this thread is not to see who is the most clever or to trade abstruse arguments, but to shed light on why I think my stance a reasonable choice. I am also here to learn about people "on the other side" in a human way, attempting to be both intellectually and personally open to the other. I have a very dear friend who is in his heart against abortions. We have learned a lot from each other. Respectfully, I don't see that happening here with you. I sort of doubt it, too. I do not feel that you're looking into my points.. in the last post, you completely ignored points because they were "mental acrobatics". As far as I can see, your entire point hinges around a body that isn't able to support itself outside of the womb as having no quality of life as one which can (such as a fetus lacks the human quality since it can't exist outside of the womb where as an adult human generally can). I'd ask you to consider the case of C-sections, where a baby can be taken out and severed from the mother, late in the pregnancy, to begin to see that indepedence is arbitrary. I'd ask you look at eggs, and ask that, if a human had eggs instead of pregnancies, what destroying an egg would be considered criminally. I'd ask you to consider that even embroyo's can survive outside of the womb in a test tube. Life isn't so simple.. inside or outside of a womb. The womb's just an environment, not a fundamental sphere of existence. We can recreate that, and embryo's can exist outside of it. It's true that a very young human, an embryo, needs a very specific environment to live. But, please, consider the extremely specific environment even us humans need to survive- how uncommon it is in this huge universe! It's a bit less specific than the embryo's, and a bit more common (on this planet's crust, anyhow).. but we're hardly independent. It's a shame a mother might feel inconvinced by her offspring, MySweetSubmssive, but the fact that she's inconvinenced so.. no, I can not see it giving her the right to kill it. And, yes, I know. You're looking where these defitions break down, sensing that they're not perfect. They're not. The conclusion is accurate using these approximations, though. For a perfect answer, you'd have to evaluate exactly what makes a life valuable. And, please, if you default to the idea that it's idependence from other life, you're going to come to some very absurd ends.

MissSCD -> RE: Abortion (10/7/2007 5:56:28 PM)
I cannot believe we are discussing this on a BDSM site. To me, abortion is simply not an option. To others, abortion is the right to choose. Leave it alone. Quit trying to make something over nothing that was ever intended to be done, and to the op, please don't bring it up again. For heavens sake, abortion is a personal choice with a need for education of other alternatives. I will stand by that. There is no way in hell that we will ever agree on this issue. No used to attack each other. Regards, MissSCD

susie -> RE: Abortion (10/7/2007 5:57:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: hermione83 quote: Can you please be more specific about what a "gratuitous abortion" is? MSS I meant that as abortion as a form of birth control. The most basic IMHO would be someone who is sexually active and uses no form of preventative birth control at all and does not want a child. There are few worse things I can think that a person could do. Taking a gamble that they won't have to suffer most of the consequences over. Seeking their own pleasure, and knowing that it's okay, they can have an abortion if it comes down to it. But, personally knowing that people get pregnant on contraceptive pills, and after vasectomies, tubal ligations, etc - if I get married and have sex, one of us will have surgery and be checked often, and still use at least another form of birth control that is also extremely effective, so our chances get into the infinitesimally low levels of risk. So you have already decided that if you get married you do not want children?

aldonza1 -> RE: Abortion (10/7/2007 5:59:06 PM)
If everyone who lobbied against abortion actually spent their time and money caring for the unwanted, abused, lost and abandoned kids out there, if only for one day, this world would be a better place. I find it curious that many who claim to be so pro-life also are pro-war. Seems a bit hypocritical to me. Abortion is an unfortunate but necessary evil IMO.

susie -> RE: Abortion (10/7/2007 6:04:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CuriousLord quote: ORIGINAL: MySweetSubmssive My primary purpose on this thread is not to see who is the most clever or to trade abstruse arguments, but to shed light on why I think my stance a reasonable choice. I am also here to learn about people "on the other side" in a human way, attempting to be both intellectually and personally open to the other. I have a very dear friend who is in his heart against abortions. We have learned a lot from each other. Respectfully, I don't see that happening here with you. I sort of doubt it, too. I do not feel that you're looking into my points.. in the last post, you completely ignored points because they were "mental acrobatics". As far as I can see, your entire point hinges around a body that isn't able to support itself outside of the womb as having no quality of life as one which can (such as a fetus lacks the human quality since it can't exist outside of the womb where as an adult human generally can). I'd ask you to consider the case of C-sections, where a baby can be taken out and severed from the mother, late in the pregnancy, to begin to see that indepedence is arbitrary. I'd ask you look at eggs, and ask that, if a human had eggs instead of pregnancies, what destroying an egg would be considered criminally. I'd ask you to consider that even embroyo's can survive outside of the womb in a test tube. Life isn't so simple.. inside or outside of a womb. The womb's just an environment, not a fundamental sphere of existence. We can recreate that, and embryo's can exist outside of it. It's true that a very young human, an embryo, needs a very specific environment to live. But, please, consider the extremely specific environment even us humans need to survive- how uncommon it is in this huge universe! It's a bit less specific than the embryo's, and a bit more common (on this planet's crust, anyhow).. but we're hardly independent. It's a shame a mother might feel inconvinced by her offspring, MySweetSubmssive, but the fact that she's inconvinenced so.. no, I can not see it giving her the right to kill it. And, yes, I know. You're looking where these defitions break down, sensing that they're not perfect. They're not. The conclusion is accurate using these approximations, though. For a perfect answer, you'd have to evaluate exactly what makes a life valuable. And, please, if you default to the idea that it's idependence from other life, you're going to come to some very absurd ends. Inconvenienced? Have you read nothing of what has been said by women here you have made the decision to have an abortion. How fucking arrogant to call it an inconvenience. Never have I see such a narrow minded attitude in anyone that is supposedly an adult.

CuriousLord -> RE: Abortion (10/7/2007 6:06:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SeeksOnlyOne quote: ORIGINAL: CuriousLord I'm a bit confused. Are you responding to me? If so.. well, I didn't make those quotes.. So, you've killed a set of babies because you didn't want to be their mother. Yeah, I think that's wrong. And, yeah, I don't like having to say that to you directly, but, hey, I do think it's messed up. that may be the most ignorant thing i have yet to see on this forum.....just because you choose to decide when sperm penetrates egg, it is a life, does not make it fact..... You're right. And just because you decide it isn't also doesn't make it fact. Still, I'm not the one assuming my points are inniately correct; you can read pages worth of justifcation. I'd ask you attempt to make your own if you'd like to contradict it, or at least contradict one of my reasons for believing it is. quote: ORIGINAL: SeeksOnlyOne and until you have sat up all night, crying, agonizing over the decision to terminate a pregnancy, screaming against the gods that you took the birth control, deciding that the best you can do is care for the child who sleeps in the bedroom next to yours....., how dare you say that to a woman who had to make that decision.... How dare I say murder is disgusting, just because she regrets it? Do you know how many child molesters live their entire life in unending guilt for what they've done? Does that mean I shouldn't be disgusted by them raping a kid? Regretting it doesn't get murderers off a hook. Again, I hate having to use personal examples, so I sort of wish it didn't come up. But, it did. She brought it up for debate and analysis, and she knew how I'd feel about it. And, let's be honest. I said it was "messed up". I went out of my way to find words that were to put it lightly. quote: ORIGINAL: SeeksOnlyOne when life begins is something we all decide for our selves........your opinion does not make it fact..... Ah. So if I decide life begins at 100, I should be able to kill anyone I want to? (Besides those at or past 100, of course.) No. It's reason and facts that dictate it. And that's why I've used them. quote: ORIGINAL: SeeksOnlyOne your absolute determination to push your holier than thou beliefs on someone, when you do not have a womb and never will have one......is sickening to me Holier-than-thou beliefs? Give me a break. I think it's murder. I have reasons. Ones you haven't been able to contradict. And you say I should look the other way because I don't have a pussy. Seriously, who's telling who that their thoughts and ideas don't count here? quote: ORIGINAL: SeeksOnlyOne i sincerely hope you practice abstinance or have been neutered. if not, no matter how much birth control you use, you risk the chance of an unintended pregnancy.......... Or, maybe, if I get a girl pregnant, I'll deal with the consquences responsibly instead of killing them. How crazy's that? quote: ORIGINAL: SeeksOnlyOne if you do have sex, i hope you inform all your partners that, in the event of something going wrong, and a pregnancy happening, you will demand they carry the baby to term, and then you will be more than happy to take it and raise it with no help from them at all, unless they choose to offer it. if you are not doing these things, you are, imho, a hypocrite above all other hypocrites. Yeah. You see, I do this thing where I only risk pregnancy (you know, have sex) with women I'm in a relationship with. And I don't get in relationships with women who don't know where I stand on such issues. So, yes. They've all known. quote: ORIGINAL: SeeksOnlyOne to say to her she has killed 2 "babies" is ridiculous........but im old enough to know some day some how, it will come back to bite you in the ass......so please enjoy waiting for the time someone manages to say something to you that is that callous and cruel...... Yeah, it'll bite me on the ass when, someday, despite contraception (or perhaps due to lacking it), one girl I'm with has a baby. And I get to be a father. That'll show me.

dcnovice -> RE: Abortion (10/7/2007 6:07:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CuriousLord quote: ORIGINAL: dcnovice quote: If one of your family members killed a random stranger, would you not have a hard time calling them a murderer? You'd be no less accurate, you just don't like having to be mean. This analogy rests on the assumption that someone who's had an abortion is a murderer, and I don't buy that assumption. You said it was easier to call them murderers when you didn't have to talk to them, suggesting that I can't do it to their face because it's wrong. This was pointing out that it isn't because it's wrong, but because it's just not pleasant to have to tell someone you know that they've done something horrible. Actually, what I said was that it's easier to call people murderers when one hasn't heard their stories. I say that because I was once a passionate pro-lifer who had no problem saying "Abortion is murder." It helped no end that the women I was branding as murderers were simply mental constructs to me, as I suspect they are to you. Once I grew older, read more than Catholic propaganda on the subject, listened to what women had to say on the subject, and met people who'd actually faced the difficult choice of whether to end a pregnancy, the all-too-easy certainty of youth departed.

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