RE: Abortion

RE: Abortion (Full Version)

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dcnovice -> RE: Abortion (10/7/2007 6:10:34 PM)
I'm a little disappointed that no one has tackled the Bernard Shaw question of whether women who have abortions should face the same penalties (including perhaps execution) as other "murderers."

CuriousLord -> RE: Abortion (10/7/2007 6:11:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: susie Inconvenienced? Have you read nothing of what has been said by women here you have made the decision to have an abortion. How fucking arrogant to call it an inconvenience. Never have I see such a narrow minded attitude in anyone that is supposedly an adult. While I'd state the term is accurate (you can check a dictionary), I'm not willing to get into this sort of argument with you. If you'd like to debate the logical points, I'm willing. I'm just not up for the name calling.

CuriousLord -> RE: Abortion (10/7/2007 6:16:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: dcnovice quote: ORIGINAL: CuriousLordYou said it was easier to call them murderers when you didn't have to talk to them, suggesting that I can't do it to their face because it's wrong. This was pointing out that it isn't because it's wrong, but because it's just not pleasant to have to tell someone you know that they've done something horrible. Actually, what I said was that it's easier to call people murderers when one hasn't heard their stories. I say that because I was once a passionate pro-lifer who had no problem saying "Abortion is murder." It helped no end that the women I was branding as murderers were simply mental constructs to me, as I suspect they are to you. Which I'm trying to get across.. they're not to me. I'm trying to tell you your assumption about my beliefs is incorrect. quote: ORIGINAL: dcnovice Once I grew older, read more than Catholic propaganda on the subject, listened to what women had to say on the subject, and met people who'd actually faced the difficult choice of whether to end a pregnancy, the all-too-easy certainty of youth departed. I'm glad you started thinking then. Please don't attribute my age being similar to yours at the time as evidence of me having the ignorance you once did. People really do grow up differently.

dcnovice -> RE: Abortion (10/7/2007 6:21:32 PM)
quote: People really do grow up differently. True. And I didn't have the benefit of being a genius.

LotusSong -> RE: Abortion (10/7/2007 6:23:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: celticlord2112 quote: ORIGINAL: LotusSong (...and celticlord2112- YOU are exactly the type of person I laugh at. Laugh louder then, little girl, so I can hear you. You have already proven that what you do not agree with falls on your deaf ears. I won't waste any more time on you, little bubba.

hermione83 -> RE: Abortion (10/7/2007 6:24:09 PM)
quote: So you have already decided that if you get married you do not want children? Yes, I have.

susie -> RE: Abortion (10/7/2007 6:24:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: dcnovice quote: People really do grow up differently. True. And I didn't have the benefit of being a genius. Lucky for you. If being a genius mean being arrogant and narrow minded then you are way better off the way you are.

CuriousLord -> RE: Abortion (10/7/2007 6:24:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: dcnovice quote: People really do grow up differently. True. And I didn't have the benefit of being a genius. Kind of funny how often one can be insulted for it.

whiteginger -> RE: Abortion (10/7/2007 6:25:47 PM)
Isn't is puzzling how many of the people who consider themselves against harming "innocent" life feel absolutely no hesitation in methodically killing their own children with poisons: sugar, fast-foods, soda, second-hand smoke, over-the-counter and prescription medicines and non-organic foods... If you don't believe in abortion, don't have one. I would never stand in the way of you killing yourself or your kids with food, smoke, meds., inattentiveness, anger and duplicity. It's America, remember, even though the self-righteous would like everyone to follow one path blindly. P.S. The day that men have uteri and can conceive and birth, we'll see this issue run moot. P.P.S. Does this mean the 4 miscarriages I've suffered are in actuality my "children"? Uncle Sam doesn't think they are...the Church doesn't support that notion, neither does the Koran or Hindu texts or Islam.

CuriousLord -> RE: Abortion (10/7/2007 6:25:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: susie quote: ORIGINAL: dcnovice quote: People really do grow up differently. True. And I didn't have the benefit of being a genius. Lucky for you. If being a genius mean being arrogant and narrow minded then you are way better off the way you are. Because having reasonable points means you're an egotist. It can't possibly be that you actually care about children surviving or anything.

SeeksOnlyOne -> RE: Abortion (10/7/2007 6:28:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: whiteginger snip P.S. The day that men have uteri and can conceive and birth, we'll see this issue run moot. snip amen....if men bled every month, id wager you would get 3 days a month off, with pay, to deal with aunt flo.......

susie -> RE: Abortion (10/7/2007 6:30:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CuriousLord quote: ORIGINAL: susie quote: ORIGINAL: dcnovice quote: People really do grow up differently. True. And I didn't have the benefit of being a genius. Lucky for you. If being a genius mean being arrogant and narrow minded then you are way better off the way you are. Because having reasonable points means you're an egotist. It can't possibly be that you actually care about children surviving or anything. A fetus at 9 or 12 weeks is not a child. It is a fetus. Suggesting that a woman who agonised over a decision to abort a fetus that would have no quality of life if it came to full term did so because the fetus was an inconvenience is ignorant, crass and stupid. Do you also believe that if a person is clinically brain dead they should be kept alive by machine indefinetly because to switch the machines off is murder?

CuriousLord -> RE: Abortion (10/7/2007 6:31:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SeeksOnlyOne quote: ORIGINAL: whiteginger snip P.S. The day that men have uteri and can conceive and birth, we'll see this issue run moot. snip amen....if men bled every month, id wager you would get 3 days a month off, with pay, to deal with aunt flo....... Ah, wonderful. The "your opinion doesn't matter because you're not my gender" bit. No, don't worry, it's not sexist at all. Please, try to explain to this poor, stupid man; what could you possibly feel to justify the taking of an innocent life?

LadyLynx -> RE: Abortion (10/7/2007 6:34:17 PM)
As usual when I start a thread it goes the opposite way then I had wanted it to go. lol. I wanted people to reflect on the idea of having a freedom that we cherish being taken away. (no doesn't have to be abortion. that was just to get the ball rolling.) For me, I can easily envision this starting with abortion and then it going to take most if not all of the rights that Women,People of Color,Homosexuals,Jews, (and any other minority group that you could name.)away. Scary thought! The Civil Rights movement wasn't that long ago. Neither was the Sufferage movement. Who ever said that it shouldn't be up to the lawmakers is right. Despite my position on this subject, I refuse to judge any woman who chooses an abortion. I may not like her or her reasons, but that is besides the point. Any person who doesn't want kids, shouldn't be having them. I think I am done with this topic, thank you all for your posts, for your stories, for your honesty. LL

SeeksOnlyOne -> RE: Abortion (10/7/2007 6:35:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CuriousLord quote: ORIGINAL: SeeksOnlyOne quote: ORIGINAL: whiteginger snip P.S. The day that men have uteri and can conceive and birth, we'll see this issue run moot. snip amen....if men bled every month, id wager you would get 3 days a month off, with pay, to deal with aunt flo....... Ah, wonderful. The "your opinion doesn't matter because you're not my gender" bit. No, don't worry, it's not sexist at all. Please, try to explain to this poor, stupid man; what could you possibly feel to justify the taking of an innocent life? i find the taking of an innocent life to be a disgusting act..... i do not see a fetus as a life....... does that explain it you, you poor, stupid man?

CuriousLord -> RE: Abortion (10/7/2007 6:35:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: susie A fetus at 9 or 12 weeks is not a child. It is a fetus. So, no matter how many times I can dismantle this statement, you're going to continue to make it. And you think it's right, even without reasoning, just because you say so. quote: ORIGINAL: susie Suggesting that a woman who agonised over a decision to abort a fetus that would have no quality of life if it came to full term did so because the fetus was an inconvenience is ignorant, crass and stupid. No quality of life? You're telling me that all those aborted babies would've committed suicide, given the chance, as soon as they were old enough? That they didn't want to live? quote: ORIGINAL: susie Do you also believe that if a person is clinically brain dead they should be kept alive by machine indefinetly because to switch the machines off is murder? Ah, you mean a person who has no chance of ever living again? Would you mind telling me how an embryo has no chance of living? (Unless, of course, you gouge its brain out with a coat hanger. I could see that one.) But, yes, I'm telling you it's wrong to pull the plug on someone on a machine who can and will come out of the coma in a known time period. Particularly when keeping that machine running isn't running up $10,000 a day in hospital bills.

CuriousLord -> RE: Abortion (10/7/2007 6:38:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SeeksOnlyOne i find the taking of an innocent life to be a disgusting act..... i do not see a fetus as a life....... So.. because I'm a man.. I'm incapable of understanding that you don't think a fetus is life? Hum. You know something. I'm a Chemical Engineer. Pretty good with, you know, Biology 'n Chemistry and stuff. I was unaware that being a woman would predispose you towards understanding the nature of a fetus more than all my education. I can see now how you're the one who should be able to tell me that it's not a life. Nope, screw my logic, reason, and education. You're a woman, and therefore your word is law. quote: ORIGINAL: SeeksOnlyOne does that explain it you, you poor, stupid man? Yeah. I really feel like the stupid one right now.

BoiJen -> RE: Abortion (10/7/2007 6:41:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: hermione83 I meant that as abortion as a form of birth control. The most basic IMHO would be someone who is sexually active and uses no form of preventative birth control at all and does not want a child. There are few worse things I can think that a person could do. Taking a gamble that they won't have to suffer most of the consequences over. Seeking their own pleasure, and knowing that it's okay, they can have an abortion if it comes down to it. But, personally knowing that people get pregnant on contraceptive pills, and after vasectomies, tubal ligations, etc - if I get married and have sex, one of us will have surgery and be checked often, and still use at least another form of birth control that is also extremely effective, so our chances get into the infinitesimally low levels of risk. Please don't think I'm picking on you...I just reviewed this thread from back to a page that caught my interest. Please also know that I choose not to read further into the thread and I know this leaves me open to not seeing the entire conversation. I agree that abortion as a form of birth control is not an acceptable practice. I also think that I'm never gonna be able to pin anybody on that action and those choices. People run through birth control practices and get pregnant anyways pretty much regularly. I was a child who was suppsoed to prevented. And a few very good friends of mine have either suffered miscarriages or had to choose abortion because of the precise nature of "the pill." You have to take that thing at the same time daily. If you take the pill even two hrs off of your regular time it becomes ineffective. Many people don't know this. As a result miscarriages happen because of the hormone levels as well as a choice not to make a child suffer through illnesses that cannot be effectively treated or cured. And what about people who have herpes or HIV or Hepitis and don't want to risk transmitting these viruses to children...or worse yet transmitting these viruses andthose viruses causing immediate physical damage. Children end up blind because of the herpes virus at astounding rates in third world countries because of genital herpes. And living with HIV or Hep at an early age is simply a horrible way to start life. Lets not get into people who practice safer sex and still end up pregnant and don't make enough to support their children. Honestly is it better to raise a child in an enviornment where they don't know when they are going to eat or if they need to steal their meals to eat, than to make a choice to not bring that child into this world? There's a million things that can go wrong in raising a child. I personally believe it takes a brave person to be able to determine a course of action that hurts but is in the end right for them than someone who chooses to be pushed and intimidated into something they aren't ready for. Se is a natural and healthy part of life. Sex is actually a requirement for the "normal" human to be healthy physically emotionally and mentally. We are not by any means perfect. Our choices leave us in situations to ponder over for the rest of our lives. We have enough in dealing with that...why the hell do we need somebody else on our backs about it? what was that about casting the first stone?

susie -> RE: Abortion (10/7/2007 6:41:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CuriousLord quote: ORIGINAL: susie A fetus at 9 or 12 weeks is not a child. It is a fetus. So, no matter how many times I can dismantle this statement, you're going to continue to make it. And you think it's right, even without reasoning, just because you say so. quote: ORIGINAL: susie Suggesting that a woman who agonised over a decision to abort a fetus that would have no quality of life if it came to full term did so because the fetus was an inconvenience is ignorant, crass and stupid. No quality of life? You're telling me that all those aborted babies would've committed suicide, given the chance, as soon as they were old enough? That they didn't want to live? quote: ORIGINAL: susie Do you also believe that if a person is clinically brain dead they should be kept alive by machine indefinetly because to switch the machines off is murder? Ah, you mean a person who has no chance of ever living again? Would you mind telling me how an embryo has no chance of living? (Unless, of course, you gouge its brain out with a coat hanger. I could see that one.) But, yes, I'm telling you it's wrong to pull the plug on someone on a machine who can and will come out of the coma in a known time period. Particularly when keeping that machine running isn't running up $10,000 a day in hospital bills. I did not suggest all aborted babies. If you are going to read things that are not there then you obviously lack reading skills. What I was talking about in that comment, and it is perfectly clear, is the case of a woman who is told that the fetus she is carrying will not have any quality of life or may not even be delivered alive. She chooses to have an abortion but you would have the nerve to say that was done out of inconvenience? As for someone who has been diagnosed as clinically brain dead, that does not mean they are in a coma. It means there is no brain stem activity. When a family decide to turn off the life support system they are not doing it for their convenience but out of love for the person suffering. Obviously you have not been in that situation and I hope you never will be.

dcnovice -> RE: Abortion (10/7/2007 6:41:57 PM)
quote: Unless, of course, you gouge its brain out with a coat hanger. I don't think we'll need the coat hanger unless, as is distinctly possible, the Religious Right succeeds in banning safe, legal abortions.

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