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RE: Abortion - 10/8/2007 10:10:19 AM   
KatyLied


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Joined: 2/24/2005
From: Pennsylvania
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quote:

do they also believe that murder is allowed in extreme cases such as rape?  i just find the concept hard to grasp.


Some of them do.  They place a value on life in relation to the circimstances of conception, something that life had no responsibility for.  I don't get it either. 


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RE: Abortion - 10/8/2007 10:12:25 AM   
susie


Posts: 1699
Joined: 11/21/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: chellekitty

quote:

ORIGINAL: MissSCD

Just FYI:

I happened to look at Curious Lord's profile.  He is a merely a 20 year old male.
I am a 48 year old female who has studied this issue.  



a much greater woman than i had an opinion of individuals such as you....

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people.

her name was Elanor Roosevelt...

chelle...the 24 year old who hates it when the arguement is reduced to attacking age because the arguers can no longer discuss the merits of the argument................



chelle

I don't think that the issue here was really physical age but more the mental age that was being shown with some of the ilogical thought being put forward.

I believe that everyone can learn something from someone else, doesn't matter if they are 30 years younger or 30 years older everyone has something to give. Accepting that is part of being an adult. Those with totally closed minds, who will not accept or listen to anothers point of view do not portray themselves as adults. There are times when you have to accept that you cannot possibly have a real understanding on a matter and at that point you take the time to listen to others that have.

IQ has very little to do with how clever a person is in all matters. IQ is only one measure of a person. People can have high IQs but lack the very basic life skills needed to integrate with other people. Having an IQ does not guarantee those life skills nor does it guarantee a level of common sense. Someone that suggests, as happened on this thread, that they are of more value because they have a higher IQ than someone else shows themself to be lacking in the common sense and life skills department. Nobody is "of more value" than anyone else in this world, everyone has something to give.

I guess when people start behaving like adults on threads like this then their point of view may be considered in a better vein, but when they start to stamp their feet and behave like petulant children that is how they are treated.

I am aware that you too are young but your posts do not show that and that is the difference.

(in reply to chellekitty)
Profile   Post #: 282
RE: Abortion - 10/8/2007 10:13:40 AM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied

quote:

do they also believe that murder is allowed in extreme cases such as rape?  i just find the concept hard to grasp.


Some of them do.  They place a value on life in relation to the circimstances of conception, something that life had no responsibility for.  I don't get it either. 


My hunch is that allowing exceptions for rape and incest is largely a matter of political pragmatism (not wanting to repel voters by seeming extreme), which strikes me as an odd way to make decisions about "murder."

< Message edited by dcnovice -- 10/8/2007 10:14:52 AM >

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INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to KatyLied)
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RE: Abortion - 10/8/2007 10:15:55 AM   
KatyLied


Posts: 13029
Joined: 2/24/2005
From: Pennsylvania
Status: offline
quote:

Having an IQ does not guarantee those life skills nor does it guarantee a level of common sense.


Amen.
I have found that some with high IQ's seem to hugely lack common sense.  Hugely.  As in, how do they hold down a job and get through the day?
In these cases it does no good to loudly blare one's high IQ when what we see screams the opposite.


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- Albert Einstein

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Profile   Post #: 284
RE: Abortion - 10/8/2007 10:16:08 AM   
AquaticSub


Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyLynx

Have you thought of what if they outlaw abortion? What's next? birth control? I mean people don't want to believe this, but women could end up losing most if not all that we have strove for.  It was only 80 odd years ago that we got the vote!  And after the get done gunning for women, who is next?  I got to say if they do outlaw abortion, I will move.  I love the USA, but if my abililty to choose goes out the window, then this country will have ceased to be what I thought it was.


Easy. We go back to coathangers in alleys.

Women who want an abortion will get one. But only the rich will get one safely.

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(in reply to LadyLynx)
Profile   Post #: 285
RE: Abortion - 10/8/2007 10:29:47 AM   
hermione83


Posts: 393
Joined: 8/1/2007
Status: offline 		As I've explained in other posts, I have known people who grew up after their mom was raped with them, children that their parents knew would have significant defects, etc, and I think that if God wanted them to not grow up, he would see to it their life is over. I really don't like anyone, or myself, playing God and extinguishing a life, ever. I don't think it's up to us to say what's too much suffering, what isn't worth life, etc. Also, I don't believe its being on a "high horse" to say if you do the crime - you do the time. If you have sex of your own volition, you know what sex is for, and what it can bring. You should not be able to stop a life you started, anymore than a mother should be able to throw her baby in a dumpster after she had it out of desperation or any other circumstance that involves killing. Just like in anything else in life. It doesn't make people less accountable and responsible for their actions, just because what they're doing is not popular in today's society. It's another life. I realize a baby is dependent (which why dependency should ever be a reason to be able to harm, I’ll never know), I do, but it is OF its mother, but not its mother. It is a new life, from the moment of conception. And that baby should have more of a life to live and more possibilities than any of us living. I think it's a shame that anyone would think to put those older than that baby above it. I see it as the most innocent, most fragile, most full-of-life little person there could be. And that's why we should be protecting them above any others. It's our duty. If we don’t, no one can. I think a life is worthy no matter how the circumstances that lead to its conception were, absolutely, and I think it should be saved. However, just like it’s excusable to protect yourself from a murderer by killing the murderer in self-defense – it’s not a good thing to kill, but something that might have to happen. I don’t think there’s any point for it not to be an emergency medical procedure, etc, able to happen in an instant in an emergency room, for example. If both are going to die if something isn’t going to be done, etc, it would be foolish to not make a hard choice. It’d never be a good circumstance to be in.

(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 286
RE: Abortion - 10/8/2007 10:32:55 AM   
hermione83


Posts: 393
Joined: 8/1/2007
Status: offline 		(PS, it's widely known that those who have an extremely above average level of intelligence seem to be lacking elsewhere, such as in social skills, common sense, physical grace. e.g. the aloof professor)

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Profile   Post #: 287
RE: Abortion - 10/8/2007 10:40:15 AM   
came4U


Posts: 3572
Joined: 1/23/2007
From: London, Ontario
Status: offline 		I heard they have oval heads too.


(in reply to hermione83)
Profile   Post #: 288
RE: Abortion - 10/8/2007 10:52:31 AM   
blueeyespup


Posts: 13
Joined: 10/1/2007
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: hermione83
I have known people who grew up after their mom was raped with them


i don't think anyone would argue that a child that was conceived as a product of rape can grow up to be a healthy, happy, and loving individual. 

however, having had a child myself, knowing what it does to the mother both mentally and physically... knowing the dangers involved and knowing that as a mother, you pretty much give up your own life to provide for this newborn child... i cannot bring myself to think that this could be or should be imposed upon a woman who did not make the choice to have this child, or even worse upon a child who was raped and did not make the choice.  what about that child's innocence?   

if a woman that has been raped and as a result becomes pregant decides to keep that child... to allow that baby to grow inside her body for 9 months and then take on the responsibility of giving up her own freedoms to raise that child, then that is a beautiful thing and that child was obviously meant to be.  i comend any woman for having and raising a child, as i can't think of a single job more important than that of a mother.

(in reply to hermione83)
Profile   Post #: 289
RE: Abortion - 10/8/2007 11:09:38 AM   
DMFParadox


Posts: 1405
Joined: 9/11/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: hermione83

(PS, it's widely known that those who have an extremely above average level of intelligence seem to be lacking elsewhere, such as in social skills, common sense, physical grace. e.g. the aloof professor)


Hey!  HEY!!!  Easy on the brain-bashing, missy.  Some of us are the whole package, common sense and physicality included, and those stereotypes are a pain in the ass to overcome when someone figures out I really *am* smarter than they are and I'm not just busting their balls. 

Crap that's widely known like that is 'widely known' because it makes ass tards feel better, not because it's true.  Intelligence is an EMOTION, a drive and a need to know and explore and make connections where somebody else hasn't drawn the freaking map for you already.  And if people think it's stupid to be smart, then that emotion is not encouraged... and you wind up with a nation of intentional idiots.  If you consider yourself brainy, Miss Hermione, then cut the crap and don't spread that street crack around.

Argh.  MAJOR pet peeve.

< Message edited by DMFParadox -- 10/8/2007 11:12:53 AM >

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RE: Abortion - 10/8/2007 1:24:34 PM   
CuriousLord


Posts: 3911
Joined: 4/3/2007
Status: offline 		Oh Karana.

After logging off last night, this is how the debate turned?  You guys stopped actually trying to make points and just started insulting me for having a high IQ and a low age?  I even got some hate mail, telling me how I was too young to be allowed an opinion!

You people have spent a fair number of posts calling me immature.  Make some points and grow up.

(in reply to KatyLied)
Profile   Post #: 291
RE: Abortion - 10/8/2007 1:26:45 PM   
KatyLied


Posts: 13029
Joined: 2/24/2005
From: Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		If the high IQ, no common sense shoe fits....wear it.

_____________________________

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- Albert Einstein

(in reply to CuriousLord)
Profile   Post #: 292
RE: Abortion - 10/8/2007 1:32:31 PM   
CuriousLord


Posts: 3911
Joined: 4/3/2007
Status: offline 		Common sense is a set of prejustices you've acquired.  The reason those with a high IQ tend to lack "common sense" is that we tend to ignore prejustices and use reason instead.

This debate's a good explanation of it.  Your prejustice is that a fetus isn't a human.  You can't seem to wrap your mind around it.

You're right.  I lack common sense- those things that limit your free thought.  The part I find deplorable is your accusations that this is a disadvantage.

You people really are older than me.  I'm somewhat taken back that such old people can still make such displays of immaturity when they lack actually having a reason for their beliefs.

(in reply to KatyLied)
Profile   Post #: 293
RE: Abortion - 10/8/2007 1:39:55 PM   
KatyLied


Posts: 13029
Joined: 2/24/2005
From: Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		Actually my thought on this subject has very little to do with an embryo/fetus and murder and everything to do with choice.  And I expand it far beyond abortion.  For me it's a more global issue about choice in reproduction, including whether or not to have um's how many to have, etc.  I don't want the government dictating such things to women.  When the government dictates abortion, it takes away a woman's reproductive freedom.


_____________________________

“If you want to live a happy life, tie it to a goal, not to people or things.”
- Albert Einstein

(in reply to CuriousLord)
Profile   Post #: 294
RE: Abortion - 10/8/2007 1:40:00 PM   
laurell3


Posts: 6577
Joined: 5/5/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

Common sense is a set of prejustices you've acquired.  The reason those with a high IQ tend to lack "common sense" is that we tend to ignore prejustices and use reason instead.

This debate's a good explanation of it.  Your prejustice is that a fetus isn't a human.  You can't seem to wrap your mind around it.

You're right.  I lack common sense- those things that limit your free thought.  The part I find deplorable is your accusations that this is a disadvantage.

You people really are older than me.  I'm somewhat taken back that such old people can still make such displays of immaturity when they lack actually having a reason for their beliefs.


CL the point is not that you're not intelligent.....it's that you have no respect for other's opinions and lack the maturity to accept that others can have opinions that differ from your own. 

There is nowhere I'm aware of that you can have a discussion about abortion without people having very opposite opinions on it.  When someone tells you I had an abortion and it was a very hard decision to make and here's why,  and in response to this relevation of emotional intensity,  you spit in their face and scream at them, even the people that share your original viewpoint are going to assume your arguments have less merit.  That's just how arguments work with human beings.
l

< Message edited by laurell3 -- 10/8/2007 1:41:20 PM >

(in reply to CuriousLord)
Profile   Post #: 295
RE: Abortion - 10/8/2007 1:44:08 PM   
SeeksOnlyOne


Posts: 2012
Joined: 5/14/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

Common sense is a set of prejustices you've acquired.  The reason those with a high IQ tend to lack "common sense" is that we tend to ignore prejustices and use reason instead.

This debate's a good explanation of it.  Your prejustice is that a fetus isn't a human.  You can't seem to wrap your mind around it.

You're right.  I lack common sense- those things that limit your free thought.  The part I find deplorable is your accusations that this is a disadvantage.

You people really are older than me.  I'm somewhat taken back that such old people can still make such displays of immaturity when they lack actually having a reason for their beliefs.


prejudice

sorry-i had to

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it aint no good til it hurts just a little bit....jimmy somerville

in those moments of solitude, does everyone sometimes think they are insane? or is it just me?

(in reply to CuriousLord)
Profile   Post #: 296
RE: Abortion - 10/8/2007 1:45:37 PM   
CuriousLord


Posts: 3911
Joined: 4/3/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied

Actually my thought on this subject has very little to do with an embryo/fetus and murder and everything to do with choice.  And I expand it far beyond abortion.  For me it's a more global issue about choice in reproduction, including whether or not to have um's how many to have, etc.  I don't want the government dictating such things to women.  When the government dictates abortion, it takes away a woman's reproductive freedom.


Yeah.  I get it.  You're saying women should have a choice.  You're ignoring the murder aspect.

How can you just ignore it?

(in reply to KatyLied)
Profile   Post #: 297
RE: Abortion - 10/8/2007 1:47:47 PM   
CuriousLord


Posts: 3911
Joined: 4/3/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SeeksOnlyOne
quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

Common sense is a set of prejustices you've acquired.  The reason those with a high IQ tend to lack "common sense" is that we tend to ignore prejustices and use reason instead.

This debate's a good explanation of it.  Your prejustice is that a fetus isn't a human.  You can't seem to wrap your mind around it.

You're right.  I lack common sense- those things that limit your free thought.  The part I find deplorable is your accusations that this is a disadvantage.

You people really are older than me.  I'm somewhat taken back that such old people can still make such displays of immaturity when they lack actually having a reason for their beliefs.


prejudice

sorry-i had to


It's fine.  Pointing out two of my spelling mistakes is probably the best point you've made so far.  And I'm not trying to be an ass in saying this.  I'm sincerely grateful that, despite how petty this was, it was at least accurate.

(in reply to SeeksOnlyOne)
Profile   Post #: 298
RE: Abortion - 10/8/2007 1:51:49 PM   
CuriousLord


Posts: 3911
Joined: 4/3/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: laurell3

CL the point is not that you're not intelligent.....it's that you have no respect for other's opinions and lack the maturity to accept that others can have opinions that differ from your own.


Opinions?  No, laurell3.  I don't care for opinions.  We can discuss things and figure it out.  I say an embryo is a human, you say it's not?  Awesome, let's discuss why.  Just because we think so doesn't mean our opinions have equal weight.  Actually, since there's a difference, both are in question until it's discussed.

quote:

ORIGINAL: laurell3
There is nowhere I'm aware of that you can have a discussion about abortion without people having very opposite opinions on it.  When someone tells you I had an abortion and it was a very hard decision to make and here's why,  and in response to this relevation of emotional intensity,  you spit in their face and scream at them, even the people that share your original viewpoint are going to assume your arguments have less merit.  That's just how arguments work with human beings.


You can try to stick this on me, but read back.  It was all posts and points, justifying logic.  Then this started.  You guys don't like my opinion- or the fact that I can reason it out- so, suddenly, I'm a genius, which is, ironically, a bad thing to be, and I therefore lack the necessary common sense to participate in this debate.

laurell3, no where have I told anyone that they can't speak or what they say doesn't matter.  I've been told I can't speak because I have no common sense and I'm too young.

Honestly.  Who's being disrespectful here?

(in reply to laurell3)
Profile   Post #: 299
RE: Abortion - 10/8/2007 1:51:51 PM   
SeeksOnlyOne


Posts: 2012
Joined: 5/14/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

Common sense is a set of prejustices you've acquired.  The reason those with a high IQ tend to lack "common sense" is that we tend to ignore prejustices and use reason instead.

This debate's a good explanation of it.  Your prejustice is that a fetus isn't a human.  You can't seem to wrap your mind around it.

You're right.  I lack common sense- those things that limit your free thought.  The part I find deplorable is your accusations that this is a disadvantage.

You people really are older than me.  I'm somewhat taken back that such old people can still make such displays of immaturity when they lack actually having a reason for their beliefs.


now to be sweet......i think you are highly intelligent-and im sure i could figure that out without you reminding me at every turn......but your attitudes in this "debate" are childish.

your way is not the only way-i respect your passion for something you believe in, but some day (and yes im playing the age card), you will have lived long enough to realize there is not just black and white-but many many shades of gray.

at 20, i knew it all and folks telling me one day i would get it were idiots.  nothing can make you understand what were trying to tell you other than living 20 more years..... think about it-double what you have lived now.

i was 20 yesterday-and in another lifetime.  if you do not wish to be discounted for being young, do not discount those with more life experience than you.  you can disagree without calling someone a murderer, someone that made a hard decision.....one that was right for her.

it is your opinion that a fetus is a living human.  that is an opinion.  not a fact.  so, by all means, live and be true to your self.  that is all any of us can do.  but the more you scream and yell i am right and yall are wrong, the more i think gawd what an immature child he is.

get back to me in 20 years.......lets have this discussion again.

_____________________________

it aint no good til it hurts just a little bit....jimmy somerville

in those moments of solitude, does everyone sometimes think they are insane? or is it just me?

(in reply to CuriousLord)
Profile   Post #: 300
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