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RE: Abortion - 10/8/2007 3:17:56 PM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied

quote:

do they also believe that murder is allowed in extreme cases such as rape?  i just find the concept hard to grasp.


Some of them do.  They place a value on life in relation to the circimstances of conception, something that life had no responsibility for.  I don't get it either. 


My hunch is that allowing exceptions for rape and incest is largely a matter of political pragmatism (not wanting to repel voters by seeming extreme), which strikes me as an odd way to make decisions about "murder."


I'd just emphasize, some see it as "murder", some just see it as the ending of a life; meaning, not all pro-lifers see the permit of rape/incest abortions as "okaying murder".

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Profile   Post #: 341
RE: Abortion - 10/8/2007 3:21:39 PM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SeeksOnlyOne

im going for some herbal therapy....maybe then this will make more sense.......




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Fake the heat and scratch the itch
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Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

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Profile   Post #: 342
RE: Abortion - 10/8/2007 3:21:59 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied

quote:

do they also believe that murder is allowed in extreme cases such as rape?  i just find the concept hard to grasp.


Some of them do.  They place a value on life in relation to the circimstances of conception, something that life had no responsibility for.  I don't get it either. 


My hunch is that allowing exceptions for rape and incest is largely a matter of political pragmatism (not wanting to repel voters by seeming extreme), which strikes me as an odd way to make decisions about "murder."


I'd just emphasize, some see it as "murder", some just see it as the ending of a life; meaning, not all pro-lifers see the permit of rape/incest abortions as "okaying murder".


But isn't the taking of a human life murder? I'm not trying to argue but to understand.

< Message edited by dcnovice -- 10/8/2007 3:23:07 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 343
RE: Abortion - 10/8/2007 3:25:44 PM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied

quote:

do they also believe that murder is allowed in extreme cases such as rape?  i just find the concept hard to grasp.


Some of them do.  They place a value on life in relation to the circimstances of conception, something that life had no responsibility for.  I don't get it either. 


My hunch is that allowing exceptions for rape and incest is largely a matter of political pragmatism (not wanting to repel voters by seeming extreme), which strikes me as an odd way to make decisions about "murder."


I'd just emphasize, some see it as "murder", some just see it as the ending of a life; meaning, not all pro-lifers see the permit of rape/incest abortions as "okaying murder".


But isn't the taking of a human life murder? I'm not trying to argue but to understand.


Not necessarily, dc.

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

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Profile   Post #: 344
RE: Abortion - 10/8/2007 3:27:11 PM   
CuriousLord


Posts: 3911
Joined: 4/3/2007
Status: offline 		For the first part of the post, I'm not responding; I answered your question in the first place because you asked, twice in a row.  Still, though, I'm not interested in pounding you about it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation
Now i am going to say here i asked you answer my question.
The reason i asked you to answer is because i wanted to see if you actually would be a hypocrite. You have repeatedly asked people not to call you names for your beliefs and opinions and yet you called me an inhuman monster.


Excuse me for saying "Therefore, you were an inhuman monster in those decisions" after you asked me, then confirmed when I asked if you really wanted to know.  I can see how it was hypocritical of me to answer a question you really wanted to know the answer to.

quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation
I will also now ask you again why you cannot accept that to have an abortion or not have an abortion is individual choice.


Is shooting someone an individual choice?  Of course it is.  That doesn't mean it's not murder.

quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation
You are entitled to your opinion but it is just that, opinion.


Until it's backed up with reason that's up for debate and evidence.  Then it's a scientific theory.

(in reply to missturbation)
Profile   Post #: 345
RE: Abortion - 10/8/2007 3:27:27 PM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
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Status: offline 		Can you explain how you see the difference? I'm genuinely interested because (a) you may have found some much-needed middle ground on this hot topic and (b) my own thinking is still evolving.

< Message edited by dcnovice -- 10/8/2007 3:29:03 PM >

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

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Profile   Post #: 346
RE: Abortion - 10/8/2007 3:30:15 PM   
eyesopened


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Status: offline 		i would accept a biological reasoning to abortion from someone who simply believes killing any living thing to be wrong.  And actually i can accept that people should be able to choose NOT to have an abortion if they choose not to. 

Unlike CL, i believe in God.  i believe the Bible gives me wisdom and that the Bible states that God formed Man and then blew in the breath of life or soul.  So i believe that a zygote has no soul.  i would not expect to force my beliefs on anyone.  i believe that it is extremely arrogant for any man to force a woman to complete a pregnancy that results in a child that he himself would want no part in raising, supporting, or caring for.  i asked the Right to Life folks if any of the money they raise goes to caring for crack-addicted babies, for respite care for troubled teen mothers, for education, birth control, or anything that would benefit the CHILD after it was born.  The answer is  not  one  dime.  Right to Life does not give two shits about children they only care about self-righteousness.


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Profile   Post #: 347
RE: Abortion - 10/8/2007 3:39:19 PM   
CuriousLord


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SeeksOnlyOne

ok......tell me how you KNOW abortion is murder.......im listening with an open mind


Questions, not orders, Seeks; though, this time, I'll assume you misspoke.

Abortion is the act of killing post-conception, pre-birth human.  To kill a human is murder.

Of course, "murder" can mean different things.  It's entirely possible to define "murder" as "the act of killing a white person", such as it was in historical America.  People do tend to define words as meets their purposes.  For my argument, I define "murder" as "killing a human", without the "post-birth" restriction.  So, I'm not saying that abortion is the "killing of a post-birth human"; I'm just saying that abortion is the "killing of a human".

Life, to me, is inniately value; since the universe has no inherient meaning, I tend to assign value to life, particularly human life.  So, to me, the taking of it is an atrocity.

(in reply to SeeksOnlyOne)
Profile   Post #: 348
RE: Abortion - 10/8/2007 3:42:18 PM   
CuriousLord


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quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

i would accept a biological reasoning to abortion from someone who simply believes killing any living thing to be wrong.  And actually i can accept that people should be able to choose NOT to have an abortion if they choose not to. 

Unlike CL, i believe in God.  i believe the Bible gives me wisdom and that the Bible states that God formed Man and then blew in the breath of life or soul.  So i believe that a zygote has no soul.  i would not expect to force my beliefs on anyone.  i believe that it is extremely arrogant for any man to force a woman to complete a pregnancy that results in a child that he himself would want no part in raising, supporting, or caring for.  i asked the Right to Life folks if any of the money they raise goes to caring for crack-addicted babies, for respite care for troubled teen mothers, for education, birth control, or anything that would benefit the CHILD after it was born.  The answer is  not  one  dime.  Right to Life does not give two shits about children they only care about self-righteousness.


Yeah.  The baby's have no souls.  At the moment it squeezes out of a vagina, God comes down from the Heavens and endows the baby's body with a soul.  But, the very moment before that, it doesn't have one.

Anyhow, you're right.  It's better to just assume that they'll be crack adicts, and they're better off dead.

(in reply to eyesopened)
Profile   Post #: 349
RE: Abortion - 10/8/2007 3:42:46 PM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

Can you explain how you see the difference? I'm genuinely interested because (a) you may have found some much-needed middle ground on this hot topic and (b) my own thinking is still evolving.


Well, the first example that comes to my mind, is suicide. That's the taking of a human life, albeit one's own.
 
I also don't see things like what Dr Kervokian did as murder. I guess alot of it has to do with intent, to me.

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 350
RE: Abortion - 10/8/2007 3:46:40 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

Can you explain how you see the difference? I'm genuinely interested because (a) you may have found some much-needed middle ground on this hot topic and (b) my own thinking is still evolving.


Well, the first example that comes to my mind, is suicide. That's the taking of a human life, albeit one's own.
 
I also don't see things like what Dr Kervokian did as murder. I guess alot of it has to do with intent, to me.


Thanks, Level. I'm also not sure I'd see an execution, much as I dislike capital punishment, as a murder.

The murder definition that Celeste posted included the word malice, which strikes me as important and helps explain why I can't see abortion as murder. The stories that women have posted on the thread don't seem to contain malice. Desperate, difficult choices perhaps, but not malice.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

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Profile   Post #: 351
RE: Abortion - 10/8/2007 3:47:52 PM   
CuriousLord


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesertRat
quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord
I get my opinion doens't matter to you, because it's different from yours, and no amount of reason will change that.


Your reason just leads you to an opinion, nothing more.


Yeah.  Reason and logic just leads to opinions.  Because they're mine.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesertRat
Your opinion doesn't matter one bit to me, because, in your post #327, you show your ignorance, arrogance, and inability to grasp what's being said to you.


You know, this may come as a shocker to you.. but I didn't write post #327.

Yeah.  Showing ignorance is my thing.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesertRat
In your mind, abortion is killing children and therefore murder. You think that the "reasoning" you've applied makes that opinion a universal truth. Based on what I've seen, you could easily come up with some equally plausible "logic" that would prove the opposite of your present position...and then that would be your "truth".


Try it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesertRat
It's called sophistry. Some call it spin. If your "reason" works in your head, then good for you. I'm not gonna go through the looking glass and join you in your version of reality. I'll watch, though, 'cause you're a hoot!


Ah, I see.  So my reasoning is all moot, because you said so.  But, I'm so stupid it's funny to watch.

And I'm arrogant.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesertRat
If you don't see what's wrong with phrases like "inhuman monster" and "opinions are stupid", then, I hate to be the one to break it to ya, kid, but you're not really all that intelligent. Not that it matters.


I really wish you people could make up your mind.  I mean, seriously; I mentioned my IQ in a thread about geniuses months ago.  I haven't even mentioned it here, yet you're still concerned with it.

Give it a rest.  What you consider my intelligence to be doesn't matter.  It's the points that do.  Stop trying to turn away from that.

(in reply to DesertRat)
Profile   Post #: 352
RE: Abortion - 10/8/2007 3:54:07 PM   
CuriousLord


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quote:

ORIGINAL: laurell3
quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

quote:

ORIGINAL: laurell3

CL I give up.  You are a very foolish young man that may be intelligent but lacks common decency.  Get off the PC and go live life.  You clearly have a very sheltered idea of what it is.


She asked.  And then confirmed when I asked if she really wanted to know.

I get my opinion doens't matter to you, because it's different from yours, and no amount of reason will change that.

I am going to Biology.  To study things like this, because I believe in looking for the truth instead of just saying something is because I want it to be.  I'm not sure what you're doing with your life, but I hope it's worthwhile.


Yep as I stated above in this thread.  I work fulltime with families that deal with the consequences.  It's very worthwhile. 

And for the third time, I understand your argument and recognize it has some validity.  However, the shit you shovel at people who share REAL life stories is intolerable.

I would suggest learning the difference between emotional garbage and logic before you launch another debate on any topic.


You're calling my thoughts, ideas, and logic dirt instead of actually debating them.  You really just don't like what I have to say.

It's true that rhetoric could be improved through being more.. discrete.  But you're making a faulty assumption.  I'm more concerned with looking for understanding and debating and looking for the truth than I am in looking right to people who just want what sounds plesant to them.  If, in the end, you believe me or not.. meh.

quote:

ORIGINAL: laurell3
They are very much not the same and one detracts from your argument and makes you appear unintelligent.


You're too concerned with appearences.

< Message edited by CuriousLord -- 10/8/2007 4:01:37 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 353
RE: Abortion - 10/8/2007 3:56:11 PM   
Level


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice


quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

Can you explain how you see the difference? I'm genuinely interested because (a) you may have found some much-needed middle ground on this hot topic and (b) my own thinking is still evolving.


Well, the first example that comes to my mind, is suicide. That's the taking of a human life, albeit one's own.
 
I also don't see things like what Dr Kervokian did as murder. I guess alot of it has to do with intent, to me.


Thanks, Level. I'm also not sure I'd see an execution, much as I dislike capital punishment, as a murder.

The murder definition that Celeste posted included the word malice, which strikes me as important and helps explain why I can't see abortion as murder. The stories that women have posted on the thread don't seem to contain malice. Desperate, difficult choices perhaps, but not malice.


You're welcome. Executions.... hmm. Those are really tip-toeing on the line, to me. What if the executioner is looking at the convict, thinking "you prick, you're about to get yours."? That provides the malice. Another tough call, I agree.
 
I don't see abortions as murder; horrible, tragic, and for the most part, wrong, but not murder. As you say, there is an absence of malice there. I don't wish the decision on anyone.

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

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Profile   Post #: 354
RE: Abortion - 10/8/2007 3:57:06 PM   
bbwdommelilith


Posts: 81
Joined: 10/25/2006
Status: offline 		      I believe in free abortion on demand for all females of any age- no parental permission required. I'm not going to explain or justify this opinion since someone is bound to take exception to it, and I don't debate about this issue. I don't think that anyone's mind has ever been changed during an argument about this.
    I will say that I find it interesting that research has shown that folks who are antiabortion  are also likely to be  pro- capital punishment. Pro-life or pro-death: take your pick
    One of my pet peeves is the use of the term "unborn baby" for an early to mid-term fetus. This makes about as much sense as referring to a live person as a "pre-dead corpse". Neither one has as yet transitioned to the next stage of existence. The line does blur when a being comes close to the next stage; that's why we can pull the plug from life-support, and why we don't have partial-birth abortions.

Lilith

   

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Profile   Post #: 355
RE: Abortion - 10/8/2007 3:58:49 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

I don't see abortions as murder; horrible, tragic, and for the most part, wrong, but not murder. As you say, there is an absence of malice there. I don't wish the decision on anyone.


Me neither. Which is why I'm increasingly uncomfortable with involving politicians in this most intimate decision.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to Level)
Profile   Post #: 356
RE: Abortion - 10/8/2007 4:00:13 PM   
CuriousLord


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SeeksOnlyOne
quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord
What you did killed, what, two children?


the red indicates your "prejustices"................you say she murdered 2 kids........i say she had some cells sucked out of her womb, not unlike a DNC.......

show me facts that indicate she murdered 2 children.........a glob of dna does not a child make......thats my opinion, a result of my so-called prejudices, and it is as valid as yours......
Note:  Backquote cut down to just the mentioned "red" text.

Ah, you see.  I use "children" as "humans before their n-th birthday", where "n" is normally between 10 and 14.  Pre-birth children are included in this.

Now, you're calling my definition opinion?  No, it's not.  That doesn't mean it's the only right one, though.  Definitions are per usage, not per opinion.  Whether or not you use "children" to refer to pre-birth humans, you must acknowledge that I do, and that my statements using "children" are concerning this.

She had an abortion.  An abortion kills cells which are, in the definition I use, human.  Not opinion, Seeks- definition.

As a side note, I see you use "cells" to distance yourself from them.  You realize you're just cells, too, right?  For the most part.  You also have bones, but so do many of the aborted.  But, yeah, point being, you're just a mass of cells, too; so, please, don't consider them being a mass of cells to be any different from yourself.

(in reply to SeeksOnlyOne)
Profile   Post #: 357
RE: Abortion - 10/8/2007 4:04:04 PM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

I don't see abortions as murder; horrible, tragic, and for the most part, wrong, but not murder. As you say, there is an absence of malice there. I don't wish the decision on anyone.


Me neither. Which is why I'm increasingly uncomfortable with involving politicians in this most intimate decision.


It makes me uncomfortable, as well; faceless bureucrats (sp?) on the other side of the continent, butting into an individual's life isn't something that generally puts a smile on my face.

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 358
RE: Abortion - 10/8/2007 4:05:51 PM   
CuriousLord


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Joined: 4/3/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Level
quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

I don't see abortions as murder; horrible, tragic, and for the most part, wrong, but not murder. As you say, there is an absence of malice there. I don't wish the decision on anyone.


Me neither. Which is why I'm increasingly uncomfortable with involving politicians in this most intimate decision.


It makes me uncomfortable, as well; faceless bureucrats (sp?) on the other side of the continent, butting into an individual's life isn't something that generally puts a smile on my face.


How would you feel about a family that tossed a newborn into a dumpster?  Should the law be involved then?

(in reply to Level)
Profile   Post #: 359
RE: Abortion - 10/8/2007 4:06:51 PM   
Level


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

quote:

ORIGINAL: Level
quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

I don't see abortions as murder; horrible, tragic, and for the most part, wrong, but not murder. As you say, there is an absence of malice there. I don't wish the decision on anyone.


Me neither. Which is why I'm increasingly uncomfortable with involving politicians in this most intimate decision.


It makes me uncomfortable, as well; faceless bureucrats (sp?) on the other side of the continent, butting into an individual's life isn't something that generally puts a smile on my face.


How would you feel about a family that tossed a newborn into a dumpster?  Should the law be involved then?


Absolutely. It goes back to intent.

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to CuriousLord)
Profile   Post #: 360
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