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RE: Freedom -from- religion? - 10/7/2007 10:54:04 PM   
DomKen


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Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

The founding fathers were not, mostly christian and this is not, a christian nation.They didn`t want douche bag religious types, trying to take advantage of average folks.

This is a common, and often repeated myth(lie,IMO).

Mostly perpitrated by the Christian Right,and the fundimentalists,this myth gives some folks, the feeling that they can push their dogma on Joe Public.

Like it`s their place,to insert their personal beliefes on the public.

A very tacky approch,to getting along with "thy" naeghbor 



well you will need to cite that because i have read much of their writings and you are simply wrong.

Making up lies again I see.

Jefferson and Madison are the primary authorsof the Declaration and Constitution and both were, at most, deists. They certainly intended the nation they were creating to be neutral on religion.

If you disagree present your quotes with citations to the original sources.

(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Freedom -from- religion? - 10/7/2007 10:56:32 PM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		Not for nothing,the influence of the state over religion,is just as deleterious as the influence of religion over the state. 


This is a good reason why the power of the state and religion ,must be kept separated.

After the September 11 attack masterminded by a terrorist hoping to spark a religious war, virtually every official and pundit knew better than to take the bait. Except for conservative commentator Ann Coulter, who wrote in a syndicated column on September 12 that in responding to terrorists "we should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity."


http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2001/0111.coulterwisdom.html

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 10/7/2007 11:03:48 PM >

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to Owner59)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Freedom -from- religion? - 10/7/2007 10:56:58 PM   
Real0ne


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Joined: 10/25/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

so how do y0u propose we defend a christian based constituition when people are not educated in christian morals?  or any morals at all for that matter?

Since the Constitution is not christian based I have no opinion on your hypothetical question except to note that I took an oath many years ago to defend the Constitution from all foes foreign and domestic and anyone trying to create a theocracy in the US should keep in mind how seriously I take that oath.


letting kids exercize their right to practice their religion by saying a morning prayer is creating a theocracy?  Since when?

you may have a huge chip on your shoulder but allowing kids to pray in their own religions respectively does not violate anything that I could find on the subject.

Now teaching it does but that is not what i was talking about.





_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Freedom -from- religion? - 10/7/2007 10:57:29 PM   
MySweetSubmssive


Posts: 1139
Joined: 2/7/2006
From: Lehigh Valley, PA
Status: offline 		"I believe that without religion in our history man would have found just as many reasons to persecute their fellow man [sic]".

Not to keep sniping at your, but have you heard of The Inquisition?  The Crusades?  Religion, as a political tool, has been used as a tool to persecute.

MSS 

_____________________________

"Oh, James, you're such a cunning linguist."

--Miss Moneypenny

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Freedom -from- religion? - 10/7/2007 10:59:01 PM   
dcnovice


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Joined: 8/2/2006
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quote:

Except for conservative commentator Ann Coulter, who wrote in a syndicated column on September 12 that in responding to terrorists "we should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity."


I was always fascinated by her assumption that people who'd been invaded and watched their leaders get killed would be ripe for conversion. Might have the opposite effect, I'm thinking.

< Message edited by dcnovice -- 10/7/2007 11:01:37 PM >

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to Owner59)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Freedom -from- religion? - 10/7/2007 11:01:13 PM   
dcnovice


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Joined: 8/2/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MySweetSubmssive

"I believe that without religion in our history man would have found just as many reasons to persecute their fellow man [sic]".

Not to keep sniping at your, but have you heard of The Inquisition?  The Crusades?  Religion, as a political tool, has been used as a tool to persecute.

MSS 


I think her point, though, is that even without religion we'd find reasons to hurt one another. I'm guessing she's right about that.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to MySweetSubmssive)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Freedom -from- religion? - 10/7/2007 11:01:18 PM   
Real0ne


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Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Making up lies again I see.




slander and libel huh? well here is your citation



_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Freedom -from- religion? - 10/7/2007 11:01:31 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline 		Giving official sanction to a morning bible study or prayer group that is only christian is a clear establishment and violates th Lemon test. Allowing an in class moment of silence is borderline at best.

If the truly devout of any faith wish to pray before school starts then they should do it without needing a mandated moment to do it.

(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Freedom -from- religion? - 10/7/2007 11:04:25 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Making up lies again I see.




slander and libel huh? well here is your citation



Nothing? As I thought.

(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Freedom -from- religion? - 10/7/2007 11:08:09 PM   
Real0ne


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Joined: 10/25/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Giving official sanction to a morning bible study or prayer group that is only christian is a clear establishment and violates th Lemon test. Allowing an in class moment of silence is borderline at best.

If the truly devout of any faith wish to pray before school starts then they should do it without needing a mandated moment to do it.


buddy that is absolute bullshit and i never said anything of the sort.

There is nothing that violatesd lemon test or any other law if a child of each group wishes to lead prayer for their group.

Just because you have a fucking hardon for religion.  I never said implied or even thopught of "giving official sanctio" that is your little creation, now you migh want to take a minute to read that case.

sheesh

< Message edited by Real0ne -- 10/7/2007 11:09:09 PM >

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Freedom -from- religion? - 10/7/2007 11:12:10 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Making up lies again I see.




slander and libel huh? well here is your citation



Nothing? As I thought.


hey you wanna insult me well here is your citation


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Freedom -from- religion? - 10/7/2007 11:14:50 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Giving official sanction to a morning bible study or prayer group that is only christian is a clear establishment and violates th Lemon test. Allowing an in class moment of silence is borderline at best.

If the truly devout of any faith wish to pray before school starts then they should do it without needing a mandated moment to do it.


buddy that is absolute bullshit and i never said anything of the sort.

There is nothing that violatesd lemon test or any other law if a child of each group wishes to lead prayer for their group.

Just because you have a fucking hardon for religion.  I never said implied or even thopught of "giving official sanctio" that is your little creation, now you migh want to take a minute to read that case.

sheesh

?
You're dancing around the issue and using vague terms. I OTOH am making clear statements describing what I view as the boundary of what is allowed. That this is bothering you is somewhat bizzare but par for course in all of my attempts to communicate with you.

If a group of students independently gather and pray before school that is protected religious practice. The school giving them a designated space or making even a single announcement of the existence of the group is an establishment and fails two forks of the Lemon test.

(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Freedom -from- religion? - 10/7/2007 11:16:47 PM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice


quote:

ORIGINAL: MySweetSubmssive

"I believe that without religion in our history man would have found just as many reasons to persecute their fellow man [sic]".

Not to keep sniping at your, but have you heard of The Inquisition?  The Crusades?  Religion, as a political tool, has been used as a tool to persecute.

MSS 


I think her point, though, is that even without religion we'd find reasons to hurt one another. I'm guessing she's right about that.


We don`t need any fucking reason, to hurt one another.

Religion has been but just one reason, for people to hurt,steal and kill.

6000 years of recorded history, attests to that.



_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Freedom -from- religion? - 10/7/2007 11:20:42 PM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice


quote:

ORIGINAL: MySweetSubmssive

"I believe that without religion in our history man would have found just as many reasons to persecute their fellow man [sic]".

Not to keep sniping at your, but have you heard of The Inquisition?  The Crusades?  Religion, as a political tool, has been used as a tool to persecute.

MSS 


I think her point, though, is that even without religion we'd find reasons to hurt one another. I'm guessing she's right about that.


We don`t need any fucking reason, to hurt one another.

Religion has been but just one reason, for people to hurt,steal and kill.

6000 years of recorded history, attests to that.


I think we're saying the same thing.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to Owner59)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Freedom -from- religion? - 10/7/2007 11:22:44 PM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Giving official sanction to a morning bible study or prayer group that is only christian is a clear establishment and violates th Lemon test. Allowing an in class moment of silence is borderline at best.

If the truly devout of any faith wish to pray before school starts then they should do it without needing a mandated moment to do it.


buddy that is absolute bullshit and i never said anything of the sort.

There is nothing that violatesd lemon test or any other law if a child of each group wishes to lead prayer for their group.

Just because you have a fucking hardon for religion.  I never said implied or even thopught of "giving official sanctio" that is your little creation, now you migh want to take a minute to read that case.

sheesh

?
You're dancing around the issue and using vague terms. I OTOH am making clear statements describing what I view as the boundary of what is allowed. That this is bothering you is somewhat bizzare but par for course in all of my attempts to communicate with you.

If a group of students independently gather and pray before school that is protected religious practice. The school giving them a designated space or making even a single announcement of the existence of the group is an establishment and fails two forks of the Lemon test.


Don`t get razzed by the "realone",DomKen.

He/she, posts links to KKK sites,and David Duke sites,and weird stuff,just to get a rise of of folks.

Don`t pay any more attention,then you would to a rock .

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Freedom -from- religion? - 10/7/2007 11:24:06 PM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

What does "freedom from  religion" mean?


Freedom from the impact of other people's irrational beliefs.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to luckydog1)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Freedom -from- religion? - 10/7/2007 11:24:07 PM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice


quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice


quote:

ORIGINAL: MySweetSubmssive

"I believe that without religion in our history man would have found just as many reasons to persecute their fellow man [sic]".

Not to keep sniping at your, but have you heard of The Inquisition?  The Crusades?  Religion, as a political tool, has been used as a tool to persecute.

MSS 


I think her point, though, is that even without religion we'd find reasons to hurt one another. I'm guessing she's right about that.


We don`t need any fucking reason, to hurt one another.

Religion has been but just one reason, for people to hurt,steal and kill.

6000 years of recorded history, attests to that.


I think we're saying the same thing.


<nods> 

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Freedom -from- religion? - 10/7/2007 11:26:48 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
?
You're dancing around the issue and using vague terms. I OTOH am making clear statements describing what I view as the boundary of what is allowed. That this is bothering you is somewhat bizzare but par for course in all of my attempts to communicate with you.

If a group of students independently gather and pray before school that is protected religious practice. The school giving them a designated space or making even a single announcement of the existence of the group is an establishment and fails two forks of the Lemon test.


i am making a point and you are stretching the word establishment beyond the boundaries of the test.

you may not like it but what i suggested does not violate the lemon terst


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Freedom -from- religion? - 10/7/2007 11:32:29 PM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

I think her point, though, is that even without religion we'd find reasons to hurt one another. I'm guessing she's right about that.


The irrational belief in a fictional truth has been oppressive for aeons. To somehow portrey religious belief as moral and benigh is totally disingenuous. The only reason religion appears to have a modicum tolerance is because secularism has been in the ascendency. You only have to listen to religious people to realize if they had their traditional power, the rest of us who for good reason consider it hokum would be oppressed. Belief in a religion is to believe in a fixed truth, that will always be small minded and dangerous for the rest of us.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 10/7/2007 11:34:02 PM >

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Freedom -from- religion? - 10/7/2007 11:34:42 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

What does "freedom from  religion" mean?


Freedom from the impact of other people's irrational beliefs.


while I agree with this I also argree with their right to hold and practice them to the extent it does not violate my rights. witnessing somone praying on the other side of a room does not violate my rights.

I see nothing wrong with giving children "personal time" where one kid can lead a prayer for anyone who wishes to join if they wish.

The pledge of alleigence should definitely be brought back.  At least they would have a clue that this is a republic


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 60
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