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RE: Freedom -from- religion? - 10/7/2007 11:37:22 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

I think her point, though, is that even without religion we'd find reasons to hurt one another. I'm guessing she's right about that.


The irrational belief in a fictional truth has been oppressive for aeons. To somehow portrey religious belief as moral and benigh is totally disingenuous. The only reason religion appears to have a modicum tolerance is because secularism has been in the ascendency. You only have to listen to religious people to realize if they had their traditional power, the rest of us who for good reason consider it hokum would be oppressed. Belief in a religion is to believe in a fixed truth, that will always be small minded and dangerous for the rest of us.


on that point i think what I said would promote a better understanding and tolerance of others religions  including atheism


_____________________________

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RE: Freedom -from- religion? - 10/7/2007 11:37:28 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

I think her point, though, is that even without religion we'd find reasons to hurt one another. I'm guessing she's right about that.


The irrational belief in a fictional truth has been oppressive for aeons. To somehow portrey religious belief as moral and benigh is totally disingenuous. The only reason religion appears to have a modicum tolerance is because secularism has been in the ascendency. You only have to listen to religious people to realize if they had their traditional power, the rest of us who for good reason consider it hokum would be oppressed. Belief in a religion is to believe in a fixed truth, that will always be small minded and dangerous for the rest of us.


Interesting points, MC, with which I don't necessarily disagree. But they don't seem related to the point I was making in the quote, namely that I suspect that people would find reasons and ways to brutalize one another even without religion. Stalin and Mao managed, for instance.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
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INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

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RE: Freedom -from- religion? - 10/7/2007 11:38:38 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne
ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
Freedom from the impact of other people's irrational beliefs.
quote:



while I agree with this I also argree with their right to hold and practice them to the extent it does not violate my rights. witnessing somone praying on the other side of a room does not violate my rights.

I see nothing wrong with giving children "personal time" where one kid can lead a prayer for anyone who wishes to join if they wish.

The pledge of alleigence should definitely be brought back.  At least they would have a clue that this is a republic



Religious people can believe in pink elephants and pray in the middle of the road to them for all I care. Preferably while a truck is coming. However, when they try through the legislature to get me acting according to the moral beliefs taught by pink elephants, that is going too far.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 10/7/2007 11:40:19 PM >

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RE: Freedom -from- religion? - 10/7/2007 11:39:01 PM   
Lordandmaster


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Status: offline 		No he's not.  That poor kid can just say a prayer.  When people say they don't want school prayer, they're not talking about a kid praying before his math test.  They're talking about mandated and organized prayer sessions--like the Pledge of Allegiance before class, but with Christ the Savior as the supreme object.

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

So there are two extremes on each side, and the poor kid that wants to pass his exam, and say a little prayer is caught in the middle.

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RE: Freedom -from- religion? - 10/7/2007 11:39:30 PM   
kdsub


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Status: offline 		Hi MySweetSubmssive

I have enjoyed reading your posts….please don’t worry about sniping at me… I’m use to it…lol.

Religion wasn’t the cause of all those atrocities to man you listed… it was the excuse. Fear of change, greed and intolerance were the true cause.

If not religion it could have just as easily been Nationalism or Communism or Food or heaven forbid…OIL... their will always be an excuse sad but so.

I just personally choose not to blame God for mankind’s cruelty to his fellow man.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 10/7/2007 11:47:16 PM >

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RE: Freedom -from- religion? - 10/7/2007 11:43:03 PM   
Owner59


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

I think Lincoln's opposition to slavery was rooted at least partly in his faith.  

Actually, this is very much not true.  That I am aware of, Lincoln was not sympathetic to the conditions of slaves.  It was all about crippling the power of the south so they couldn't secede.  Make you sad?  It did when I found out.


Hadn't heard that before. Good excuse to read some more about old Abe.


I heard that Lincoln was seriously considering deporting slaves and many other blacks,back to the African continent.

I believe the civil war was more about  secession and preserving the Union,then about ending slavery.At least at 1st.

Juxtopposed all this, to what the British did years before the civil war.They freed all the slaves under them and payed them all reparations of British Sterling silver and Caribbean land.



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RE: Freedom -from- religion? - 10/7/2007 11:45:50 PM   
Lordandmaster


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Status: offline 		Ummm...not exactly.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Juxtopposed all this, to what the British did years before the civil war.They freed all the slaves under them and payed them all reparations of British Sterling silver and Caribbean land.

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RE: Freedom -from- religion? - 10/7/2007 11:47:18 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

I believe the civil war was more about  secession and preserving the Union,then about ending slavery.At least at 1st.


I agree, but I think slavery was the issue that drove states to secede.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
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JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

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RE: Freedom -from- religion? - 10/7/2007 11:50:51 PM   
Owner59


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Hi MySweetSubmssive

I have enjoyed reading your posts….please don’t worry about sniping at me… I’m use to it…lol.

Religion wasn’t the cause of all those atrocities to man you listed… it was the excuse. Fear of change, greed and intolerance were the true cause.

If not religion it could have just as easily been Nationalism or Communism or Food or heaven forbid…OIL... their will always be an excuse sad but so.

I just personally choose not to blame God for mankind’s cruelty to his fellow man.

Butch


I just personally choose not to blame God for mankind’s cruelty to his fellow man.
 
And for good reason,Butch.
 
Because she had nothing to do with it.Evil is purely a man made thing.

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

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RE: Freedom -from- religion? - 10/7/2007 11:53:35 PM   
Owner59


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Ummm...not exactly.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Juxtopposed all this, to what the British did years before the civil war.They freed all the slaves under them and payed them all reparations of British Sterling silver and Caribbean land.



This was my understanding,from watching a PBS show about the history of slavery in the west.

Very possible,that it wasn`t quite so simple as that.

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to Lordandmaster)
Profile   Post #: 70
RE: Freedom -from- religion? - 10/7/2007 11:53:58 PM   
kdsub


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Status: offline 		North was the manufacturing center and the South was the agricultural center. The south though they could not make a living if they freed their slaves. There simply was not enough manpower in the south to grow their crops without slaves… or so they thought That is the main reason for the secession… To keep their slaves and hence their way of life. Or so I learned in the 7th grade.

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RE: Freedom -from- religion? - 10/7/2007 11:56:32 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

a kid praying before his math test


Doesn't work, btw. I tried.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

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RE: Freedom -from- religion? - 10/7/2007 11:57:37 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

North was the manufacturing center and the South was the agricultural center. The south though they could not make a living if they freed their slaves. There simply was not enough manpower in the south to grow their crops without slaves… or so they thought That is the main reason for the secession… To keep their slaves and hence their way of life. Or so I learned in the 7th grade.


Slavery is economically very inefficient. Capitalism with free labour and excessive manpower is far more efficient and cheaper and probably just as cruel and oppressive.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 73
RE: Freedom -from- religion? - 10/8/2007 12:00:56 AM   
Real0ne


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quote:

Religious people can believe in pink elephants and pray in the middle of the road to them for all I care. Preferably while a truck is coming. However, when they try through the legislature to get me acting according to the moral beliefs taught by pink elephants, that is going too far.


well short of the middle of the road and the truck part, agreed!

Some people function much better with prayer and I am for neither "sanctioning it nor banning it and personal time imo is the constituti9onal approach where no ones rights are violated.






< Message edited by Real0ne -- 10/8/2007 12:05:20 AM >

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 74
RE: Freedom -from- religion? - 10/8/2007 12:02:38 AM   
Owner59


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From: Dirty Jersey
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

North was the manufacturing center and the South was the agricultural center. The south though they could not make a living if they freed their slaves. There simply was not enough manpower in the south to grow their crops without slaves… or so they thought That is the main reason for the secession… To keep their slaves and hence their way of life. Or so I learned in the 7th grade.


That`s a myth,born out of cowardice,greed ,immorality,and a desire to escape responsibility.

As far as I know,the owners were god fearing and gave thanks to god,for blessing them.


_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

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RE: Freedom -from- religion? - 10/8/2007 12:02:48 AM   
dcnovice


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quote:

Capitalism with free labour and excessive manpower is far more efficient and cheaper and probably just as cruel and oppressive.


So was the antislavery movement a wasted effort?

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 76
RE: Freedom -from- religion? - 10/8/2007 12:08:47 AM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

Capitalism with free labour and excessive manpower is far more efficient and cheaper and probably just as cruel and oppressive.


So was the antislavery movement a wasted effort?


We can put a million bucks in the bank in 1935 collect interest on it, pay taxes on it and take it out in 2007 and have 1/2 as much left.  Is that slavery?


imo the antislavery was a waste






< Message edited by Real0ne -- 10/8/2007 12:09:33 AM >

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 77
RE: Freedom -from- religion? - 10/8/2007 12:09:58 AM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		No slavery is very economical… just immoral...by today’s standards anyway. You sure are right about unregulated capitalism…Now if there were only something else that worked as good…. Nope we are stuck… time to pray.

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RE: Freedom -from- religion? - 10/8/2007 12:23:49 AM   
Real0ne


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Joined: 10/25/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Don`t get razzed by the "realone",DomKen.

He/she, posts links to KKK sites,and David Duke sites,and weird stuff,just to get a rise of of folks.

Don`t pay any more attention,then you would to a rock .



huh?  worried i will infringe on your drama turf huh LOL

everyone knows I grab the first site thqat comes up once I have established the validity of an argument.

If duke was lucky enough to be the one on top then he got posted.

Its disingenuous to the extreme to claim I endorse the kkk or "wierd" stuff.








< Message edited by Real0ne -- 10/8/2007 12:27:24 AM >

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to Owner59)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Freedom -from- religion? - 10/8/2007 12:54:42 AM   
luckydog1


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Status: offline 		awesome got a good discussion going here, lots of comments to make.

What I learned about the civil war (and makes sense to me) is that the South was primarily agricultural, while the North was primarily manufacturing. But we have a national tarrif/taxation system.  The North wanted cheap agricultural products (raw materials and food for the workers in the cities), and expensive manufactured goods.  The South wanted expensive agricultural goods and cheap imported manufactured goods.  For example in the decades leading up to the war, cotton could be imported to new england from India via the triangle trade cheaper than it could be brought up from Mississippi.  the North had a majority and controll of the gov adn wanted high import tarrifs on Manufactured goods, and low tarrifs on Agricultral goods.  This went on for over 20 years bleeding the south poor, that is why they wanted to leave, slavery was just a side issue. 

I think it is clear that Religion played a vital/indespensible role in much of early learning/science.  writing/astronomy/alchemy.  I think with out it, we would still be living in caves flinging shit, not living on the moon.  We would be far behind in terms of technology/learning, not 1500 years ahead. 

There is no religous test to hold office in the USA, which is a good thing.  But an athiest can barley get elected dog catcher.  That is the choices of the individuals voting, and they are free to be religous or not, and use it as a criteria in voting (or not).  You want to be free from the result of the constitutional process?  The elected officials get to make decisions as they see fit(within the law), after they are elected, religously based or not.  (BTW the "God told me to invade Iraq", story is getting old.  that is not what was said, but what it is being twisted to)

Religous origins are at the root of all morals.  Murder, theft, rape, ect.  We decide exactly how to legislate morals through our democratic process.  Gay marriage is not illegal because the Church says so.  there isn't even a "the Church".  But because most people (who are mostly religous to a degree) voted that way.  Same with Murder.

I am very opposed to mandated prayer in Schools or anywhere, but I feel that a religous club should get the same rights to facilities and time as any other sanctioned club. 

I agree America is not a christian nation, but it is a nation made up of mostly christians and always has been.  The term Christian covers a wide varrying set of beliefs though.

The framers were very clear to say "Freedom of Religion", not "Freedom from Religion".  Many of you seem like you would like the Chinese system, they have freedom from religion there.

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