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RE: Freedom -from- religion? - 10/8/2007 4:22:55 AM   
LadyEllen


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From: Stourport-England
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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

If I told you you could jump off the Empire state building and god would catch you, I bet you wouldn't do it without proof he would, which would be an eminently reasonable position to take.


Joke! Dont remember where I heard it though!

Two guys sitting in the bar at the top of the Empire State building - both are pretty drunk.

One says to the other "you know, if you jump off of here, the wind going round the building will blow you straight in through the window on the seventh floor"

"no way!" says the other guy. "its true" says the first guy, "look, I'll show you"

So off he goes to the ledge, jumps off and disappears towards the streets below. A few minutes later, the lift doors open and in he walks, unscathed. "see? I told you".

"Wow!" says the other guy "I've got to give that a try - its amazing!" So, he walks towards the edge and jumps off, plunging to his death.

The bartender calls across "You know, you really are a bastard when youve been drinking Superman"

E

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RE: Freedom -from- religion? - 10/8/2007 4:24:45 AM   
Level


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RE: Freedom -from- religion? - 10/8/2007 5:38:21 AM   
seeksfemslave


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Joined: 6/16/2006
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quote:

Meatcleaver.
Not to believe in something because no one has produced a shred of evidence is an eminently reasonable position to take.

(1) in this case that position should make you an Agnostic not an Atheist.
because
(2) Some evidence is  all around and in you.
The complexity present in Nature.
The reason transcending mystery of the first cause and infinitude or otherwise of space/time.
The finely balanced processes, to the point of almost miraculous, that sustain life
The wonder of two cells fusing to produce a human being.

In other words, to pick up a word used the Fueherin lol, a variant of pantheism.

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Profile   Post #: 103
RE: Freedom -from- religion? - 10/8/2007 6:15:03 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

quote:

Meatcleaver.
Not to believe in something because no one has produced a shred of evidence is an eminently reasonable position to take.

(1) in this case that position should make you an Agnostic not an Atheist.
because

I could equally say I'm agnostic to pink elephants wearing tutus ruling the world but until someone produces evidence that they do, I will choose to believe they don't. I doubt my not believing in lunacy is fine with religious people until I say I don't believe in their lunacy.

(2) Some evidence is  all around and in you.
The complexity present in Nature.

This is no evidence at all for a creator. There is an observable mechanism as to how such complexity came about. Now if animals had wheels instead of legs, something which made the bottom up theory impossible, I would concede some ground to you.


The reason transcending mystery of the first cause and infinitude or otherwise of space/time.
The finely balanced processes, to the point of almost miraculous, that sustain life
The wonder of two cells fusing to produce a human being.

This is no evidence at all. You are talking about mystery. I concede there is a lot of mystery about the universe and it is doubtful we will ever understand it but we will understand more through reason and scientific method than relying on superstition.

EDIT Anyway reason and scientific method don't claim to be able to giving meaning to the universe or claim to know the ultimate truth, there is nothing so arrogant about such methodology, mystery is accepted . It is religion that is arrogant enough to claim to know meaning and ultimate truth.
 
The biggest laugh is, when you are in church priests talk about the mystery of god and then tell you exactly want god thinks and expects of you as though they had just had a conversation with god not five minutes before hand!

In other words, to pick up a word used the Fueherin lol, a variant of pantheism.


< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 10/8/2007 6:28:00 AM >

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RE: Freedom -from- religion? - 10/8/2007 6:50:47 AM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		If someone's religion is highly structured and requires certain movement or audibles when praying, then it is not enough to just say it in their head. You determining that it should be enough, is the same as someone determining it should not be done at all. Someone should be able to do whatever they wish, until it infringes upon the rights of another. So if the movements and audibles of a religious practice, do not break any other laws, then those movements and audibles by themselves cannot be illegal, because of rights guaranteed under our constitution.

Orion




quote:

ORIGINAL: diphyes
and I pray in my own way; but I keep my prayer in my own head and heart, which should be enough for anyone.


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RE: Freedom -from- religion? - 10/8/2007 7:03:59 AM   
OrionTheWolf


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Status: offline 		Actually he is. There have already been several cases of students accused of "praying" in school, and told they could not do that. Try google and you will find some really absurd things on both sides of this debate.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

No he's not.  That poor kid can just say a prayer.  When people say they don't want school prayer, they're not talking about a kid praying before his math test.  They're talking about mandated and organized prayer sessions--like the Pledge of Allegiance before class, but with Christ the Savior as the supreme object.

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

So there are two extremes on each side, and the poor kid that wants to pass his exam, and say a little prayer is caught in the middle.



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Profile   Post #: 106
RE: Freedom -from- religion? - 10/8/2007 7:23:58 AM   
Lordandmaster


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Status: offline 		Do you have a real reference for this?  Because googling "There have already been several cases of students accused of 'praying' in school, and told they could not do that" sounds like a non-starter.  And what happened AFTERWARDS?  If a student's right to pray whenever he damn well feels like it was upheld in the end, the whole example was a red herring.

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Actually he is. There have already been several cases of students accused of "praying" in school, and told they could not do that. Try google and you will find some really absurd things on both sides of this debate.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

No he's not.  That poor kid can just say a prayer.  When people say they don't want school prayer, they're not talking about a kid praying before his math test.  They're talking about mandated and organized prayer sessions--like the Pledge of Allegiance before class, but with Christ the Savior as the supreme object.

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

So there are two extremes on each side, and the poor kid that wants to pass his exam, and say a little prayer is caught in the middle.



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Profile   Post #: 107
RE: Freedom -from- religion? - 10/8/2007 7:35:31 AM   
Real0ne


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Looks like I inadvertantly stumbled across a philisophical mine field. 

It seems like a circular argument to me to argue that atheism as a belief system and in the same sentence say is is not a religion.

Neither can prove their position, both have philisophical determinations, both influence the thought process hence how one conducts their actions in life.

believers line up their evidence on one side and nonbelievers line up theirs on the other side.

It seems to me one is the mirror image of the other and the operative word that ties it all together is belief.  It seems to me that as long as the word belief is in there, (and it has to be since there is no tangible proof either way), and because it requires a philosophical structure, where the outcome effects how you view the world and life it can be legitimately termed a religion.

I dont think one can distinguish between a personal religion and a public one as they are a group of like kind in either case.  If you could figure out how to take the word belief out of this equation I would agree with you.

Belief is that which is unprovable and based on the faith of some subset of philosophies in either case.




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Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

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RE: Freedom -from- religion? - 10/8/2007 7:38:36 AM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Actually he is. There have already been several cases of students accused of "praying" in school, and told they could not do that. Try google and you will find some really absurd things on both sides of this debate.

I'm well aware that a small number of cases of such have occured and am also aware that in all those cases the school official involved was misinformed of the law and was quickly corrected. After a great deal of research I've not found a single case that ever went before a judge much less an appelate court. Too bad that when a public school violates their students rights the other way such reasonableness is so often not on display.

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Profile   Post #: 109
RE: Freedom -from- religion? - 10/8/2007 7:38:39 AM   
kdsub


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Status: offline 		Atheism may be a belief but it is a weak one. I mean that in a way not to put down anyone’s non-belief in God…but simply according to humane nature.

Now at least be truthful to yourself … you have prayed haven’t you. If you experience enough of life and its pain and fear….you have prayed. In desperation and fear for those we love or fear of our mortality we pray. If not yet then just give it time.

We want ...we yearn…we need… a God to make since out of time with no beginning…distance with no ending…. the how…but most certainly the why of us. Atheism can never find the answers to those questions that is why it is a weak belief system.
Butch

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Profile   Post #: 110
RE: Freedom -from- religion? - 10/8/2007 7:44:41 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

believers line up their evidence on one side and nonbelievers line up theirs on the other side.



Believers don't have any evidence that is the point!
 
If you went round saying you believed in just about anything else other than god and produced no evidence, people would think you are as nutty as a fruit cake.

Blind belief is not evidence. Tony Blair believed there were WMDs in Iraq, people believed him on whaddaya know? There weren't any and even then there was more reason to believe there were WMDs in Iraq than there is reason to believe in god!

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Profile   Post #: 111
RE: Freedom -from- religion? - 10/8/2007 7:50:05 AM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Atheism may be a belief but it is a weak one. I mean that in a way not to put down anyone’s non-belief in God…but simply according to humane nature.

Now at least be truthful to yourself … you have prayed haven’t you. If you experience enough of life and its pain and fear….you have prayed. In desperation and fear for those we love or fear of our mortality we pray. If not yet then just give it time.

We want ...we yearn…we need… a God to make since out of time with no beginning…distance with no ending…. the how…but most certainly the why of us. Atheism can never find the answers to those questions that is why it is a weak belief system.
Butch

Nope not once. I've never prayed and have had to spend time disciplining myself to not laugh out loud when someone offers a prayer in my presence.

9/11 one of my best friends from high school was missing, worked in the WTC, and praying never occured to me. I cried, I screamed when I got nothing but busy signals, I spent hours chatting with his mom while we waited but never once did I offer a plea to any nonexistent entities for aid. Luckily he had been running late and was stuck in the subway rather than in the tower.

Both my parents died before I was 18. Didn't pray and got up and walked out of the funeral service when a "minister" who had never seen my mother started telling lies about her.

6 years in the USN and no prayers. That's right there are atheists in foxholes.

Just because you cannot imagine such does not mean it isn't possible.

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Profile   Post #: 112
RE: Freedom -from- religion? - 10/8/2007 7:57:09 AM   
Real0ne


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THE FACTS ABOUT SCHOOL PRAYER:

   1) It is not against the law for students to pray in public school.

   2) It is not against the law for teachers to pray in public school.

   3) No one has "taken prayer out of school."

   4) No one wants to "take prayer out of school."

   5) No one will ever "take prayer out of school."

   6) It is fundamentally impossible to "take prayer out of school."

   7) The United States Constitution protects every student's right to pray in school.

   8) The United States Constitution protects every teacher's right to pray in school.

   9) The government has never violated a student's Constitutionally-recognized right to pray in school.

   10) The government has never violated a teacher's Constitutionally-recognized right to pray in school.

   11) A student may pray in school whenever she or he wishes.

   12) A teacher may pray in school whenever she or he wishes.

   13) Millions of students and teachers currently pray in public schools every school day; no law says they may not; no law says they must cease praying.

   14) The right of anyone and everyone to pray in school not only still exists, but is not in any way in danger of being revoked, unrecognized, or otherwise annulled.

The above are the facts as they currently exist (Monday, July 12, 2004) in the United States Public School System. (Indeed, there is every reason to think that this will continue to be the case for a very, very long time.) If anyone tells you that the above facts are wrong, that person is lying to you or is mistaken.

Some people will claim that "Prayer was removed from public school" by the United States Supreme Court (in July of the year +1,963 GC): that is a false and absurd claim. The decision of Murray v. Curlett did no such thing; the High Court's decision in Abington v. Schempp (heard at the same time) did no such thing; the Court specifically recognized, defended, and affirmed a student's right to pray in school. (See 374 U.S. 203, 83 S. Ct. 1560. Number 119, Argued Feb. 27, 1963 Decided June 17, 1963, Justice Clark concurring SECTION FOUR.) If anyone tells you otherwise, that person is either lying or mistaken.

No law, no legislation, no Act, has been put in place to make it against the law for people to pray in public school; no such law is being considered; no one is trying to enact such law. If anyone tells you otherwise, that person is lying or mistaken.

This, I trust, will reassure, hearten, and ease the fears of anyone who believes they and their children may not pray in public school: you may do so; they may do so; there is no law prohibiting school prayer.
http://www.holysmoke.org/ll/school-prayer.htm


suffice to say I am not the one with a chip on my shoulder and there is nothing illegal or unlawful in what I suggested. 

Another one of your fantasies bites the dust.






_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

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Profile   Post #: 113
RE: Freedom -from- religion? - 10/8/2007 8:01:29 AM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

believers line up their evidence on one side and nonbelievers line up theirs on the other side.



Believers don't have any evidence that is the point!
 
If you went round saying you believed in just about anything else other than god and produced no evidence, people would think you are as nutty as a fruit cake.

Blind belief is not evidence. Tony Blair believed there were WMDs in Iraq, people believed him on whaddaya know? There weren't any and even then there was more reason to believe there were WMDs in Iraq than there is reason to believe in god!



how can you have empirical evidence either way?  metaphysics, spirituality are all intangible.


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 114
RE: Freedom -from- religion? - 10/8/2007 8:12:06 AM   
Cipherx


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Status: offline 		Too many post to answer individually.  God cannot be proven and the non-existence of anything cannot be proven.  Many people (probably most) seem to need the belief in a supreme being.  I have no problem with that until they try to force me to adhere to their belief(s).  The rest of the arguments are academic and of no other use.

The sad fact is that whenever there is a majority they try to force their belief on everyone else.  It doesn't seem to matter what the topic is.  While this may not be proven scientifically, it does seem to be historically accurate.

To conclude, "Believe what you will and leave everyone else alone!"

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Profile   Post #: 115
RE: Freedom -from- religion? - 10/8/2007 8:17:03 AM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
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Status: offline 		You know meatcleaver the latest theories in science…hmmm I wonder if a theory of science and religion are the same….state that if you jump off the Empire State building enough times…eventually one time you will walk back thru the door unhurt. The PBS series on string theory used the example of walking thru a wall but it is the same premise.

Otherwise all things are not only possible in infinity of space and time but if thought become fact.

So if the theory is true then we can all be right...at some time there is a God and in another there is not.

Now to me that makes perfect since… because it is based in reality… in your mind there is none… for you that is a truth a fact of nature… In mine there is another fact of nature God existence. Of course our little individual island in the universe is all that really matters. When we are gone so is the universe.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 10/8/2007 8:20:20 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 116
RE: Freedom -from- religion? - 10/8/2007 8:22:52 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

believers line up their evidence on one side and nonbelievers line up theirs on the other side.



Believers don't have any evidence that is the point!
 
If you went round saying you believed in just about anything else other than god and produced no evidence, people would think you are as nutty as a fruit cake.

Blind belief is not evidence. Tony Blair believed there were WMDs in Iraq, people believed him on whaddaya know? There weren't any and even then there was more reason to believe there were WMDs in Iraq than there is reason to believe in god!



how can you have empirical evidence either way?  metaphysics, spirituality are all intangible.



That's a get out clause. There is either a god or there isn't.

I have heard a bishop say religion is akin to art. Fine, art is what you want it to be, as religion appears to be. However, how people jump from artifice into claiming ultimate truth for their beliefs is beyond me and there in lies the problem, people claiming to believe in the truth.

Yeah. I could be wrong about god not existing but on this side of the grave it appears irrelevent, god kills, maims and tortures his own believers as much as he kills, maims and tortures anyone else. So bring on the fire and brimstone.

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Profile   Post #: 117
RE: Freedom -from- religion? - 10/8/2007 8:31:20 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

You know meatcleaver the latest theories in science…hmmm I wonder if a theory of science and religion are the same….state that if you jump off the Empire State building enough times…eventually one time you will walk back thru the door unhurt. The PBS series on string theory used the example of walking thru a wall but it is the same premise.

Otherwise all things are not only possible in infinity of space and time but if thought become fact.

So if the theory is true then we can all be right...at some time there is a God and in another there is not.

Now to me that makes perfect since… because it is based in reality… in your mind there is none… for you that is a truth a fact of nature… In mine there is another fact of nature God existence. Of course our little individual island in the universe is all that really matters. When we are gone so is the universe.

Butch


Scientific speculation is just that, speculation, it doesn't claim to be truth or fact, at some point the theory will be tested, then we can discuss it. If you jump off the Empire state building once, the chances are you will be in no fit state to jump off it a second time so speculating that if you jump off it enough times and you will walk back through the door is meaningless except in theory.

Religion doesn't speculate about the existence of god, it claims god exists!
 
It doesn't just claim that god exists, it claims to know what god thinks!

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Profile   Post #: 118
RE: Freedom -from- religion? - 10/8/2007 8:35:21 AM   
Real0ne


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Joined: 10/25/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

That's a get out clause. There is either a god or there isn't.

I have heard a bishop say religion is akin to art. Fine, art is what you want it to be, as religion appears to be. However, how people jump from artifice into claiming ultimate truth for their beliefs is beyond me and there in lies the problem, people claiming to believe in the truth.

Yeah. I could be wrong about god not existing but on this side of the grave it appears irrelevent, god kills, maims and tortures his own believers as much as he kills, maims and tortures anyone else. So bring on the fire and brimstone.


god at least in the sense that it is taught aggravates my sensibilities as well.  its a mad circle of arguments where you end right back where ya started time and time again.  My main thrust was regarding the no prayer thing that I feel would discriminate one system of belief above another if prayer were denied and I feel tolerance of all systems is the correct choice. including atheism.

regarding post 118,  i love it when peole tell me what god thinks, and would and would not want!  Evangelizing....


< Message edited by Real0ne -- 10/8/2007 8:39:03 AM >

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 119
RE: Freedom -from- religion? - 10/8/2007 8:47:09 AM   
dcnovice


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quote:

I wasn't referencing the Constitution, which is why I referred to the Founders of the country, not the Framers of the Consitution, in replying to the semantic question.


I was actually responding more to the post you'd quoted; should have made that clearer.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

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Profile   Post #: 120
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