RE: Blind Obediance and Servitude

RE: Blind Obediance and Servitude (Full Version)

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shycara -> RE: Blind Obediance and Servitude (10/10/2007 1:10:13 AM)
this is my first post in the collarme forum...thank you for raising this topic, and thanks especially to masterjim37 for his kind assistance in moderating this thread. it relates to a question that's been on my mind for years, and which i've tried to discuss in my old forum, the Submissive Wife. it's hard to talk about this, and as i can see from this thread as well as my experiences there, it tends to raise very strong feelings on both sides. in my former community, the prevailing view (and the position of the organization that runs that forum) was that submission was not meaningful unless it was absolute...that by its very definition, submission could not have limits. i'm curious about the perspectives on obedience here....i must admit that i am trying to understand myself and whether i can even define myself as a submissive woman given that i do rely on my own judgment. i'd be very grateful to hear from those who have spoken about their own situations....is it possible for someone to be submissive if she/he still retains the power of final decision-making with her/his partner? thank you for entertaining a question that has most likely been asked here in a million different ways... cara

laurell3 -> RE: Blind Obediance and Servitude (10/10/2007 2:17:36 AM)
aren't we getting into semantics as to submissive and slave again with this question? l

dreamysubmale -> RE: Blind Obediance and Servitude (10/10/2007 2:26:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: masterjim37 I think most of you are missing a big part of Slaverosebueaty's question. Trust is a cop out of sorts for you to have such faith in another person. Is trust any more important than, passion, devotion,goals, needs,common ideas, Love and all those other things that make a relationship work. If all you have is trust with your partner, thats a pretty weak reason to be in a relationship , be it vanilla or b/d s/m. All those other reasons you choose to serve another, or care/control another are just as important. With out them, you have little more than a pet that can perform a few tricks. Like Dragonslave77 stated, its your trust thats lets you know( hopefully )that your partner won't ask something of you your not willing to give. I'm not sure that many of us could ever really get to blindly obeying someone unless we were mental altered by training to completly forget about any self preservation, becuase only then could you truely give blind trust. Then anything asked of you would be aceptable and ok with you. I do understand that we all define terms and beliefs in our own way, and only by discussing it can we hope to see and understand how another defines the same terms themselves. With that said, I wish you all well, and much happiness, and perhaps and open mind to ask questions about someones definitions before you verbaly shoot at them. masterjim Masterjim35, you ask if trust is any more important than passion, devotion, goals, needs, common ideas, love. In my humble opinion i believe that trust isn’t a cop out, neither more important, only because trust IS Passion, Devotion, Goals, Needs, Common Ideas, Love, and let me add Compassion, Desires, Sacrifice, Comfort, Bliss, Companionship, Care, Empathy, and Sensuality and so on. Of course this is my belief only. Trust is where we expose our vulnerabilities to others and believing they will not take advantage of our openness and hurt us. "A wicked man serves from fear. A good man serves from love." ...Aristotle.

Celeste43 -> RE: Blind Obediance and Servitude (10/10/2007 4:07:43 AM)
It isn't blind trust. It is experience. He has never made a major decision that is selfish. He always takes into account the results it will have on me. Now if I have a problem, I'm supposed to tell him immediately. Just as I am to tell him if I think he's missing some info needed to make a better decision. But most of the time decisions are not major nor critical in their results.

shycara -> RE: Blind Obediance and Servitude (10/10/2007 4:29:19 AM)
quote: aren't we getting into semantics as to submissive and slave again with this question? possibly...i'm new here, and don't have an education about BDSM other than from The Submissive Wife Project, which doesn't make any distinction between the two. i apologize if i'm revisiting a previously discussed topic and would appreciate being pointed to an existing thread if that's a more efficient way to learn about this. cara

laurell3 -> RE: Blind Obediance and Servitude (10/10/2007 4:33:47 AM)
Nothing wrong with being new. There are many posts and discussions here about the topic and the overall answer I found is that everyone agrees and disagrees on the terminology, although a slave would generally be considered the no limits type you mentioned as opposed to a submissive (again that varies too). I think really you have to just stick with what works for you regardless of labels. To answer this question, "i am trying to understand myself and whether i can even define myself as a submissive woman given that i do rely on my own judgment." of course you can. You can be who you are and if you chose to use your own judgment that doesn't make you any less of a submissive. l

shycara -> RE: Blind Obediance and Servitude (10/10/2007 4:42:07 AM)
thank you, laurel...i appreciate your opinion and i'll keep reading about the distinction you mentioned. cara

breatheasone -> RE: Blind Obediance and Servitude (10/10/2007 4:42:57 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slaverosebeauty It seems like a theme that I hear and see over and over and over the, "I gave up concent" or the "I trust my partner fully" etc. Where does this blindness come from?? Trust is a cop out answer, since trust is relative and it's dependant on many factors. What is the appeal of following blindly?? I'm NOT your typical slave, never have been, never will be; I question the questions and I question the answers, I also question blind and illogical actions and thoughts. I don't follow blindly, I question; its part of the 'job description' as it were; to remember that my priority is to have a mind of my own and to have independant thoughts and to question what goes on around me and to me. Did I miss a day in slave school where it said that following blindly is the norm or that its a safe or logical or rational idea?! You seem to assume that trusting ones master/dom is illogical and blindness. Also you equate it with not having a mind of your own....I feel sorry for you that you view us "s" types so poorly.....

breatheasone -> RE: Blind Obediance and Servitude (10/10/2007 4:47:35 AM)
quote: i must admit that i am trying to understand myself and whether i can even define myself as a submissive woman given that i do rely on my own judgment. i'd be very grateful to hear from those who have spoken about their own situations....is it possible for someone to be submissive if she/he still retains the power of final decision-making with her/his partner? Sure its possible...you just have to find a master/dom willing to allow you in on the decision making.

gentlestarZR -> RE: Blind Obediance and Servitude (10/10/2007 7:36:35 AM)
well i know my Master has my safety and best interests at heart .. he wont want to hurt me permanently because he cherishes me. so its easy to jsut follow because i know he loves me and wants to help me grow to be a better person in general. he's built my confidence up and helped me come out of my shell and be happy. he wont want to hurt me because it can scare me off . and in his words why would i want to hurt or scare of the best thing thats ever happened to me. its easy for me to give in because he is my rock and my support ... i know he will be there to take care of me and catch me.

sweetnurseBBW -> RE: Blind Obediance and Servitude (10/10/2007 7:59:14 AM)
Maybe trust is an easy thing for you to give to someone but as for me it takes alot. For me to have accepted his collar , it mean to me that I had a trust that I could give no one else. I don't obey blindly, I know what is expected and what will happen. We discussed that from the start. If I have a question I ask, if I have a concern I ask. Without trust I could never serve him. To me trust is a fundamental element of our M/s relationship. I have never felt I had to question an order or answer, because I know he has my best interest in mind.

Stephann -> RE: Blind Obediance and Servitude (10/10/2007 8:00:33 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: laurell3 aren't we getting into semantics as to submissive and slave again with this question? Not that I can tell. The heart of the question, is must a submissive surrender her final decion making expectations. The answer is no. In fact, TPE (APE APA SPcA SCA etc) style relationships are the minority, I believe. Most people simply don't want that kind of responsibility, nor feel comfortable surrendering it. Submissive doesn't mean blind. A submissive person is one who prefers to defer authority. This can mean s/he sometimes enjoys it with just her partner, up to someone who wishes to be kept under lock and key 24/7/365/70. Those who have established a firm foothold of trust in a D/s relationships will understand that a dominant isn't infallible, that random "leap off a cliff" instructions aren't often forthcoming, and the personality and natures of the people in the relationship will determine if such a leap of faith is either healthy or wise. The final choice to obey is, ultimately, the submissives. The influence the dominant asserts over the submissive (physical, mental, emotional) certainly plays a large part in this, but to obey or flee is always up to the submissive in a consensual D/s relationship. As Tigrita pointed out, this point is rarely reached. In fact, that leaves me with a question of my own.... Stephan

slaveluci -> RE: Blind Obediance and Servitude (10/10/2007 8:00:55 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slaverosebeauty Did I miss a day in slave school where it said that following blindly is the norm or that its a safe or logical or rational idea?! I think that class was being taught at the same time you were having "spice" training[;)].............luci

littleone35 -> RE: Blind Obediance and Servitude (10/10/2007 8:22:09 AM)
Trust is a cop out? not to me. I do trust my Master because i know he loves me would never hurt me and always do what is best for me and us. Matt's littleone

RRafe -> RE: Blind Obediance and Servitude (10/10/2007 9:13:47 AM)
I think you misunderstand. Obedience is seldom blind-any rational creature makes a concerted effort to follow a directive. The only blindness I see is those who are so stuck in thier own cognitive models-that they cannot see past them-to other ways of thinking.

toservez -> RE: Blind Obediance and Servitude (10/10/2007 9:21:41 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slaverosebeauty It seems like a theme that I hear and see over and over and over the, "I gave up concent" or the "I trust my partner fully" etc. Where does this blindness come from?? Trust is a cop out answer, since trust is relative and it's dependant on many factors. What is the appeal of following blindly?? I'm NOT your typical slave, never have been, never will be; I question the questions and I question the answers, I also question blind and illogical actions and thoughts. I don't follow blindly, I question; its part of the 'job description' as it were; to remember that my priority is to have a mind of my own and to have independant thoughts and to question what goes on around me and to me. Did I miss a day in slave school where it said that following blindly is the norm or that its a safe or logical or rational idea?! I will take a crack at this. Often on message boards or talking to strangers at a local community event you are getting a false projection of a person’s relationship. I do not mean by this a conscious lie or even an exaggeration but quick snap shots or theories that may or may not be accurate when held up to the light. The fact is there are differences in serving someone. Blind obedience to me in reality is following orders of everyday life and it means following them not believing with every fiber of your being that it is right or wrong but just different. That is tricky for many to overcome. Questioning things is not a bad slave trait whether to just to yourself or bringing them up to your Dominant. Questioning things based on a constant judgment of things that have no real benefit to be judged would be the actual issue. So when you read or a person tells you how they have blind obedience it is because their relationship is in a good place. So when comments like blind obedience or I have one right and that is to leave comes out you are just getting a more romanticized version of the person’s relationship. The same person writing that is often writing on another thread giving advice to someone else about communicating their unhappiness to the other person so they can both work on it. Blind obedience is not totally blind. It is just two people committed to a severe power exchange relationship that accept the sacrifices and have good communication and the wanting of the other to be happy. Questions, bad reactions and issues do come up it just that they are handle in a normal way for the couple that they may just feel that absolute comments they use are literal.

Tigrita -> RE: Blind Obediance and Servitude (10/10/2007 11:04:44 AM)
I've realized most of us have neglected to answer part of the OP: what is the appeal of following 'blindly'? I think the offensive tone and word choice is part of the problem, but I'd like to answer, because there is such beauty and positivity to deeper levels of submission that should be appreciated. I addressed them in another thread a while ago, but these thoughts are apropriate here: I never really understood why people thought it was so great to fall in love and be so intimate with someone, and make yourself vulnerable. I lived a very happy life being strong, and tough, and not allowing myself to be vulnerable to anyone, and a lot of people thought that was really sad, and I just thought they were the sad ones, weak, and waiting to be hurt. I'm finally understanding the beauty of vulnerability again, after having been hurt by it a long time ago. It is scary, it is almost painful at times. I know that I probably will be hurt at some point, that is what happens when you walk around barefoot. But never maliciously. And if I didn't take my shoes off, I'd never experience the cool, wet grass, the warm sand between my toes, the tickle of the surf rushing over my feet... It is worth a stubbed toe now and then. And to know that you have trust in someone completely (and they in you), and that neither of you are defined and constrained by letter of a limit, but instead have a trust and respect and spirit that is all at once higher, deeper, and more profound than a line drawn in the sand or a word set in stone, it is beautiful. WOW.

adoracat -> RE: Blind Obediance and Servitude (10/10/2007 1:37:32 PM)
~fast reply~ i trust Sir with all of me. i also have no problem in disagreeing with him if he doesnt know all of the facts behind a situation, nor if something is just not right to me. at the same time that i trust him....he respects me and my opinon enough to listen to me and either adjust his view accordingly, change his mind completely, or tell me his decision stands. and that makes him even more desireable in my eyes. kitten, who has been informed that i belone to him till the 12th of never, and that's a long ways away....

missturbation -> RE: Blind Obediance and Servitude (10/10/2007 1:41:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slaverosebeauty It seems like a theme that I hear and see over and over and over the, "I gave up concent" or the "I trust my partner fully" etc. Well you will certainly have heard me say it. Where does this blindness come from?? Trust is a cop out answer, since trust is relative and it's dependant on many factors. Whilst it may be blindness to you, to me it is seeing fully. How can trust be a cop out answer when it is the trust i have in Him that allows me to give Him my consent, to give up my limits, to follow Him? What is the appeal of following blindly?? The appeal for me is knowing that i have found someone i can follow, trust in, let myself go with, be me around, know He will not harm me, know He will push me, know He will make me a better person, a better slave. I am happy when with Him, fulfilled and content. He makes me whole. I'm NOT your typical slave, never have been, never will be; I question the questions and I question the answers, I also question blind and illogical actions and thoughts. I don't think there is a typical slave. We are all different, all unique. What may seem to be blind action to you is seeing action to me, and as for illogical, well i find things this way too, but to others they are perfectly logical and i accept that. I don't follow blindly, I question; its part of the 'job description' as it were; to remember that my priority is to have a mind of my own and to have independant thoughts and to question what goes on around me and to me. It may be part of your job description to question but it may not be part of others. I question sometimes and sometimes Sir even chooses to answer lol. I certainly have a mind of my own and Sir enjoys that mind. Following Sir without question does not mean i have no mind, that i am blind or that i do not have independent thoughts. Did I miss a day in slave school where it said that following blindly is the norm or that its a safe or logical or rational idea?! Nope but there again did i miss the day where they said following Sir unquestioningly was unsafe, illogical or not rational?

Celeste43 -> RE: Blind Obediance and Servitude (10/10/2007 2:51:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: shycara in my former community, the prevailing view (and the position of the organization that runs that forum) was that submission was not meaningful unless it was absolute...that by its very definition, submission could not have limits. i'm curious about the perspectives on obedience here....i must admit that i am trying to understand myself and whether i can even define myself as a submissive woman given that i do rely on my own judgment. i'd be very grateful to hear from those who have spoken about their own situations ....is it possible for someone to be submissive if she/he still retains the power of final decision-making with her/his partner? cara I've separated your post because there are two separate questions there. First about limits; I have a hard limit of a couple of things. One being duct tape on skin as the idea of it causes me to start hyperventalating and I am not willing to risk a full blown panic attack. Now, he could decide that my limiting this shows that I don't trust him and therefore he should do it anyway to prove that my limit was ridiculous. The problem with that is that by risking my well being he would be the one proving that my trust in him was misplaced and he would risk ending the relationship. And I would withdraw my submission no matter what. I also hard limit inverted suspension because I suffer from vertigo occasionally and I won't risk an attack. Again, if he did it anyway he would have lost all my respect and trust and it would be the beginning of the end. My limits are there for my health, both physical and mental, you break them and you show me that you don't care about my well being. And no sane person allows someone to destroy their well being. Can you submit and still hold decision making power? Certainly and it's the best way IMO to start a relationship. Simply because the deeper the submission goes, and the more risky things you hand over control of (money, career, offspring) the greater knowledge of his ability as a decision maker needs to be. If he is always in debt, then he doesn't merit control of your finances. In that case he would garner more respect and trust if he admitted his money management skills were poor and assigned you the job of setting up budgets and savings for him. We mainly start by submitting sexually and in play. Some of us never submit financially especially if there's a huge disparity between the assets. If he goes from paycheck to paycheck while you own a successful business, then you shouldn't submit in that area. Plus you would be forcing employees to submit to him and they hadn't signed up for that. Same with your offspring, unless they agree to submit to him, they shouldn't. I know too many kids who hate their step-parent and have enormous problems as a result; runaways, drug use, sexual promiscuity. The dominant needs to earn their respect and trust as well as yours, and as we know the average stepfamily doesn't iron out the issues for about seven years. So if he isn't willing for you to withhold control in this area until he had earned the right to make decisions, he probably isn't someone you should trust with your family. And there's nothing wrong with deciding that you're only a bedroom submissive either. As long as you are honest with yourself and others as to what you are looking for, you'll have a chance to find compatible partners. Lie to either yourself or them, and there's no chance at all.

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