RE: Blind Obediance and Servitude

RE: Blind Obediance and Servitude (Full Version)

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agirl -> RE: Blind Obediance and Servitude (10/12/2007 1:42:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slaverosebeauty It seems like a theme that I hear and see over and over and over the, "I gave up concent" or the "I trust my partner fully" etc. Where does this blindness come from?? Trust is a cop out answer, since trust is relative and it's dependant on many factors. What is the appeal of following blindly?? I'm NOT your typical slave, never have been, never will be; I question the questions and I question the answers, I also question blind and illogical actions and thoughts. I don't follow blindly, I question; its part of the 'job description' as it were; to remember that my priority is to have a mind of my own and to have independant thoughts and to question what goes on around me and to me. Did I miss a day in slave school where it said that following blindly is the norm or that its a safe or logical or rational idea?! Over time, questioning many things simply became redundant, for me. It's natural for me to WONDER about anything different or new, to turn it around in my mind and have a curiosity about IT, but not about his capabilities or whether I'm safe. I'm actually quite curious about the TYPE of questioning you're referring to and in what context. agirl

Stephann -> RE: Blind Obediance and Servitude (10/13/2007 5:46:28 AM)
ORIGINAL: SixFootMaster consider for a moment who is most likely in possession of the information to make a judgement call or decision in regards to things that are done between Master and slave. A good Master will research what he wants to do, he will understand the dangers and account for them, and he will plan for his slave's safety. He knows what he is doing, how he is going to do it, and why. Now, the slave only knows what he is doing. ORIGINAL: Tigrita This doesen't have to be true, the slave can have a part in the research too, and know the motivations. It can be argued that this could make the act more intimate, if both understand the whys. Of course I understand circumsances where the sub shouldn't know, for shock factor etc. See, I'd like to agree with this and generally for relationship oriented issues I do. But there are just some issues a man (well, a dominant) has to work out for himself, especially in a Master/slave context; just as there are issues that the submissive needs to work out for herself. My approach tends to be along the lines of asking about a general activity or situation, getting specific information, asking about associated feelings and fears involved, and then making the ultimate decision based on all the information I could get. So, should she trust herself , second guess her Master and assume he doesn't know these things? It is also a form of 'blindness' for a slave to assume she knows better than her Master, even if he were to answer her questions. As xoxi said, sometimes the sub can know better than the dom. Anyone who I'd submit to would recognize this and value my knowledge in areas of life that are greater than his and not be so crudely arrogant. I can see where 6ft might have come off as a little arrogant, but I think the heart is in the right place. If the dominant is not able to trust his own judgment in the end, he's going to have a very hard time trusting his own shoelaces are tied before he crosses the street. Part of trusting my own judgment, is to trust the judgment of my submissive as well. Part of my own judgment is to assess when I think the submissive can open just a little wider...or the more likely case, when her eyes were, indeed, too big for her mouth (as I've learned the hard way, more than a few times.) Sometimes gasp a slave knows more than her master. Not only that but she knows her own body - she's lived with it her whole life. If a slave says 'my jaw can't open further than this' and he says 'I bet I can make it' should she risk going to the hospital with a dislocated jaw?? I don't think that submission should preclude common sense, and only a fool would submit to something they know will injure them. Exactly, I wouldn't submit to someone who would have this mindset to begin with, I'd know them better than that before I'd give them my loyalty, trust, and obedience. So for me this doesn't fit in the concept of second-guessing your dom/master, because that person would not be such to me. But.. sometimes the slave has to balance if knowing more (or better) than her owner is more important than accepting his will. This isn't some crude attempt at machismo; it's a man willing to accept 100% responsibility and accountability for the life of another human being. Thus the old adage; the Master may never be right, but he is never wrong. This doesn't imply infallibility; it implies that when I am not right, I have to face the consequences and shoulder responsibility of being wrong. The crux seems to be the slave asserting that she shouldn't have to obey a specific instruction, because common sense dictates otherwise. This is the point where clarification should be requested. "Slave, pull the chicken out of the oven." "Yes Master" (two minutes later, the slave realizes the chicken is only half baked, and thinks 'ugh, this needs another half hour in the oven.' Twenty minutes later...) "SLAVE! WHY is the chicken still in the oven???" "Master, it wasn't cooked yet!" "Of COURSE it wasn't; I needed to put the second marinade on!" "uhhhhhhh" "Fine, slave, you eat dog food tonight." "Yes Master." Yes, common sense plays a vital role in our relationships. It doesn't negate the importance of obedience. If a man has earned trust especially to the degree that she is wearing his collar, it would stand to reason that he possesses sufficient common sense that he's worth obeying. Stephan

shycara -> RE: Blind Obediance and Servitude (10/13/2007 8:18:31 PM)
quote: *If a man has earned trust especially* to the degree that she is wearing his collar, it would stand to reason that he possesses sufficient common sense that he's worth obeying. i think what bothers me about trust/obedience as such an integral part of the relationship is that i want very much to make a gift of submission, every day. In a senario like this, a dominant man would welcome my questions, and even the times when i rely on my own judgment...the fact that i have intelligent questions and good judgment makes each choice to obey mean so much more. Once there's a collar or contract or agreement about obedience (or whatever! i'm sure it must take different forms with different relationships) then the choice to obey is not just based on trust...it's also based on fear of losing the relationship (actually...mistrust...). i've felt that way with my online instructor at times. Too many questions annoyed him...it's more virtuous to trust without question...to have faith. i've done things that i definitely did not feel were in my best interests because i was afraid of offending or losing him. That seems dangerous to me. Sometimes it makes me feel badly about myself to be so dependent on someone that i wouldn't walk away before risking my professional status or not respecting the privacy of my friends, etc. Other times it makes me a little angry...i really doubt that i'm alone in not wanting to lose an important relationship...most of us are like that. So isn't it kind of a set-up when disobedience comes at the cost of losing your significant other? i hope i'm not offending anyone with these opinions...i really don't mean to judge anyone else's choices. i'm just trying to puzzle some things out for myself. thanks for reading, cara**

Lordandmaster -> RE: Blind Obediance and Servitude (10/13/2007 9:54:14 PM)
I don't understand how "obedience and servitude" became "blind obedience and servitude." Someone who obeys and serves you KNOWING everything it entails is the most desirable thing a dom can have. But I find people who don't have that, or even understand it, are embittered and so they triviliaze other people's relationships by adding words like "blind."

catize -> RE: Blind Obediance and Servitude (10/13/2007 10:37:35 PM)
quote: "Slave, pull the chicken out of the oven." "Yes Master" (two minutes later, the slave realizes the chicken is only half baked, and thinks 'ugh, this needs another half hour in the oven.' Twenty minutes later...) "SLAVE! WHY is the chicken still in the oven???" "Master, it wasn't cooked yet!" "Of COURSE it wasn't; I needed to put the second marinade on!" "uhhhhhhh" "Fine, slave, you eat dog food tonight." "Yes Master." It seems to me that the longevity of the relationship determines unquestioned obedience. Two months in, this is the first time the recipe has been prepared together, I see several scenarios to avoid a ‘chicken disaster’. One: Master says. “Slave, pull the chicken out of the oven, I need to marinade it.” Two: Slave says, “Master, are you aware the chicken isn’t done?’ and the explanation follows. Four years later, many metaphorical chickens have been cooked and slave obeys because it is clear that master has his reasons

downkitty -> RE: Blind Obediance and Servitude (10/13/2007 11:02:51 PM)
Perhaps Im different, but I suspect not so much here. I'm surprised to not see "my kind" of answer yet. My view is that it is something in me, my personality, my core that makes me want a TPE relationship. I wasnt walking around a "normal" person, then one day wham met the man who made me his slave. I gravitated towards people who I thought could fulfill my unique (or so i thought) needs. To me, this question is not much different than if you asked, "Why would you ever let someone tie you up?!?!?! Are you crazy?!?!?" My answer is the same to both questions: If you don't have the inclination, you wont understand or accept the answer. We are at an extreme of the spectrum. We look to the other extreme to balance us or fulfill us. Respectfully, Amy

shycara -> RE: Blind Obediance and Servitude (10/14/2007 6:28:47 AM)
quote: To me, this question is not much different than if you asked, "Why would you ever let someone tie you up?!?!?! Are you crazy?!?!?" My answer is the same to both questions: If you don't have the inclination, you wont understand or accept the answer. We are at an extreme of the spectrum. We look to the other extreme to balance us or fulfill us. this is a great answer, Amy...i've also given thought to the idea that dominant/submissive tendencies are on a spectrum and there's no one-size-fits-all.....it's hard for me to imagine TPE but i guess that's just because it's not something i crave (other than in fantasy..blush!). thank you for your perspective here. cara

SixFootMaster -> RE: Blind Obediance and Servitude (10/14/2007 1:31:06 PM)
FR Again, a Master that is relatively new to a particular area of kink or a particular technique than his submissive or slave is not going to ignore her opinions, he is going to actively seek them. He may, even should, command her to let him know if he is about to make some mistake that she recognises. This is NOT the same thing as questioning your Master, or questioning the orders you are given. However, as Stephann said, the ultimate responsibility for anything that goes wrong is on his head, not yours, and it is up to him to take whatever steps are necessary to ensure your safety - including consulting you. If he does not do this, and you aren't prepared to trust his judgement without questioning or second-guessing his orders, then you shouldn't be at his feet in the first place. There is very little excuse for questioning your Master, and challenging his authority and capability.

xoxi -> RE: Blind Obediance and Servitude (10/14/2007 4:30:16 PM)
That's very true. And I also think there's a difference between questioning what is going to happen and questioning whether I should submit to it. I'm a curious kitten, I want to know what that thing is, where it's going, and what it's going to do. So I will ask. But if you say "shh just close your eyes" then I won't question that order. Unless it's big and spikey and is going somewhere internal [;)]

SixFootMaster -> RE: Blind Obediance and Servitude (10/14/2007 5:13:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: xoxi That's very true. And I also think there's a difference between questioning what is going to happen and questioning whether I should submit to it. I'm a curious kitten, I want to know what that thing is, where it's going, and what it's going to do. So I will ask. But if you say "shh just close your eyes" then I won't question that order. Unless it's big and spikey and is going somewhere internal [;)] Spikey things are an outdoors toy.

Celeste43 -> RE: Blind Obediance and Servitude (10/14/2007 5:31:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: shycara quote: *If a man has earned trust especially* to the degree that she is wearing his collar, it would stand to reason that he possesses sufficient common sense that he's worth obeying. i think what bothers me about trust/obedience as such an integral part of the relationship is that i want very much to make a gift of submission, every day. In a senario like this, a dominant man would welcome my questions, and even the times when i rely on my own judgment...the fact that i have intelligent questions and good judgment makes each choice to obey mean so much more. Once there's a collar or contract or agreement about obedience (or whatever! i'm sure it must take different forms with different relationships) then the choice to obey is not just based on trust...it's also based on fear of losing the relationship (actually...mistrust...). i've felt that way with my online instructor at times. Too many questions annoyed him...it's more virtuous to trust without question...to have faith. i've done things that i definitely did not feel were in my best interests because i was afraid of offending or losing him. That seems dangerous to me. Sometimes it makes me feel badly about myself to be so dependent on someone that i wouldn't walk away before risking my professional status or not respecting the privacy of my friends, etc. Other times it makes me a little angry...i really doubt that i'm alone in not wanting to lose an important relationship...most of us are like that. So isn't it kind of a set-up when disobedience comes at the cost of losing your significant other? i hope i'm not offending anyone with these opinions...i really don't mean to judge anyone else's choices. i'm just trying to puzzle some things out for myself. thanks for reading, cara** Not necessarily. He says he knew the day we finally met that I was the right one. He collared me a month later. But I sure didn't know enough a month later to enter into blind obedience. And nor did he expect it. He welcomed questions, he welcomes them still. And I'm in no risk of having him yank the collar off my neck and announce he'll never talk to me again if I question him. He is secure enough to ride out my moments of insecurity, even four years later. Plus he enjoys having all the answers and seeing the light dawn in my eyes. Although these days I don't need to hear the answers, I just need to know that he's considered a possible problem that I thought of but hadn't been talked about. And it took a good two and a half years before this came to pass. But I'm supposed to safeword if I don't feel okay about things. He doesn't really care if we do the activity today or next month. He does care that I shouldn't be acting out of fear. Deep and abiding trust in someone's judgment comes from years of seeing them make decisions that turn out well. Someone online whom you've known for months hasn't demostrated enough good decisions for you to trust him. Especially when he actually is making bad decisions that cause trust to erode. Trust can't be demanded, it has to be earned hand in hand with respect.

Obsidiansnamaste -> RE: Blind Obediance and Servitude (10/15/2007 4:27:56 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slaverosebeauty It seems like a theme that I hear and see over and over and over the, "I gave up concent" or the "I trust my partner fully" etc. Where does this blindness come from?? Trust is a cop out answer, since trust is relative and it's dependant on many factors. What is the appeal of following blindly?? ~snip~ Did I miss a day in slave school where it said that following blindly is the norm or that its a safe or logical or rational idea?! Greetings, i think there is a difference between Absolute obedience or unquestioned obedience and following blindly. i am absolutely obedient, and while i do not question Master, or His directives i do not consider myself blindly obedient. imo blind obedience would be my obeying "sigh unseen". i have seen Master....His character, His perception, His world views, His ethics. Having revealed Himself to me i now can follow Him (else i would not be His slave) without question because i have already received the needful answers in order to be His slave. That said i am of the IE school of thought and not of the "ongoing voluntary submission" school of thought. i have no desire to question Him every step of the way. i do not follow those whom i do not trust to lead.

Sinimint -> RE: Blind Obediance and Servitude (10/15/2007 4:41:49 AM)
HottLicks - your original reply on the first page was spot on mate!!!!!!! I have read a few posts/replies by the OP and came to the same conclusion as well - 1800 yes indeed (well so she thinks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)[:D]

toservez -> RE: Blind Obediance and Servitude (10/15/2007 8:43:20 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SixFootMaster FR Again, a Master that is relatively new to a particular area of kink or a particular technique than his submissive or slave is not going to ignore her opinions, he is going to actively seek them. He may, even should, command her to let him know if he is about to make some mistake that she recognises. This is NOT the same thing as questioning your Master, or questioning the orders you are given. However, as Stephann said, the ultimate responsibility for anything that goes wrong is on his head, not yours, and it is up to him to take whatever steps are necessary to ensure your safety - including consulting you. If he does not do this, and you aren't prepared to trust his judgement without questioning or second-guessing his orders, then you shouldn't be at his feet in the first place. There is very little excuse for questioning your Master, and challenging his authority and capability. But I think that is basically why this is a theoretical debate versus reality one. Your answers and Stephan’s just go too far into theory land. No slave on here is stating they do or tell others that you should question every order or filter it to a right or wrong by our Master. That is just wrong and unhealthy to the relationship. Obviously logic 101 suggests if we serve a person we trust a person and being in these relationships means accepting orders and other things on a basic absolute level with pleasure. The problem I have with your post is it detaches a submissive as a robot and not a human being. It just is not reality to go I trust my Master therefore I no longer think which is what you are preaching. Is my Master responsible for my safety and well being, of course he is on some level but the main person, and there is no theorizing around this, responsible for my safety and well being is me! Sorry it is not with my Master and nor should it be with anyone else if they are mentally healthy. Yes, that is a gross generalization and I very much stand by it and what you write is flat out wrong on this. If you want true blind obedience, you will end up with a robot who will turn left and walk when order even going over the cliff, not reality. What most on here are writing is when ordered we will turn left and walk without question but when we get to the edge of the cliff we will stop and go “hey there’s a cliff here”. We are human beings there just is a difference between turning off our brains and following blindly and following with extreme prejudice but still have thoughts, opinions and ability to speak up when we need to. People are just posting on this thread expressing the fact that dominants are not all knowing and infallible. So to just “blindly” to expect my dominant to say “stop” when I reach the edge is just unhealthy. The difference we are talking about is not questioning the order of turn left and from there on but when we get close enough to the ledge. The fact is obedience is a gray area that you want only two categories blind or not really in a severe relationship. That just is not reality of an M/s relationship on a day in and day out basis. Most of us trust and follow our Master’s extremely. We just also have brains and use them in these types of areas when we think it is needed because we have reasons.

camille65 -> RE: Blind Obediance and Servitude (10/15/2007 8:56:57 AM)
toservez, I think you have a wonderfully balanced & clear way of seeing things. (just wanted you to know that)

toservez -> RE: Blind Obediance and Servitude (10/15/2007 10:06:59 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: camille65 toservez, I think you have a wonderfully balanced & clear way of seeing things. (just wanted you to know that) Thank you very much for your kind words. This thread has been very interesting and tough. It has been very tough to try to express obedience is easy and enjoyable to do but also conveying the reality of relationships and interactions is just not the same as trust Master completely therefore no worries or issues from large to small. We spend so many times preaching communication for problems, issues and unhappiness then get theorized talk about if you trust your Master then that is really all you need type stuff. Life and power exchange relationships are just more complicated then grand theories. The goal is to live them as close as to the theories we embrace but with the understanding that reality will never get you there 100% and in fact that is probably a good thing. Lin

SixFootMaster -> RE: Blind Obediance and Servitude (10/15/2007 5:13:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: toservez quote: ORIGINAL: SixFootMaster FR Again, a Master that is relatively new to a particular area of kink or a particular technique than his submissive or slave is not going to ignore her opinions, he is going to actively seek them. He may, even should, command her to let him know if he is about to make some mistake that she recognises. This is NOT the same thing as questioning your Master, or questioning the orders you are given. However, as Stephann said, the ultimate responsibility for anything that goes wrong is on his head, not yours, and it is up to him to take whatever steps are necessary to ensure your safety - including consulting you. If he does not do this, and you aren't prepared to trust his judgement without questioning or second-guessing his orders, then you shouldn't be at his feet in the first place. There is very little excuse for questioning your Master, and challenging his authority and capability. But I think that is basically why this is a theoretical debate versus reality one. Your answers and Stephan’s just go too far into theory land. No slave on here is stating they do or tell others that you should question every order or filter it to a right or wrong by our Master. You did read the OP? That is just wrong and unhealthy to the relationship. Obviously logic 101 suggests if we serve a person we trust a person and being in these relationships means accepting orders and other things on a basic absolute level with pleasure. The problem I have with your post is it detaches a submissive as a robot and not a human being. It just is not reality to go I trust my Master therefore I no longer think which is what you are preaching. Not at all, I think you're misreading my position - there is nothing wrong with thought, in fact it is to be encouraged because understanding can heighten your experience when you witness your Master's skill. There is a way to go about it though, and that is what I am trying to make clear. Outwardly questioning your Master's thoughts, actions, and desires is not it. If you're submitted to a Master who does not pay attention to you or listen to you or your concerns, and yours isn't an absolute TPE relationship, then you're submitted to the wrong man and should be thinking about your safety and happiness. The right Master will seek your concerns, and won't require you to volunteer them, he will not the uncertain look in your eye, or the nervously bitten lip, and know that something is amiss. If he is trying something new, then he will explore the situation with you first, before making any attempt. This isn't theory, if this isn't happening then sooner or later a mistake will be made. Is my Master responsible for my safety and well being, of course he is on some level but the main person, and there is no theorizing around this, responsible for my safety and well being is me! Sorry it is not with my Master and nor should it be with anyone else if they are mentally healthy. Yes, that is a gross generalization and I very much stand by it and what you write is flat out wrong on this. When you are tied up and helpless, gagged, blindfolded, and unable to make any judgement call save trust, your only responsibility is to hope you chose the right man to care for you. At that point, it is HIS responsibility, utterly. This isn't theory either, and there is no way in the nine hells you can represent it as such. If you cannot trust him to that point, then it should not be getting that far. If you want true blind obedience, you will end up with a robot who will turn left and walk when order even going over the cliff, not reality. What most on here are writing is when ordered we will turn left and walk without question but when we get to the edge of the cliff we will stop and go “hey there’s a cliff here”. We are human beings there just is a difference between turning off our brains and following blindly and following with extreme prejudice but still have thoughts, opinions and ability to speak up when we need to. People are just posting on this thread expressing the fact that dominants are not all knowing and infallible. So to just “blindly” to expect my dominant to say “stop” when I reach the edge is just unhealthy. The difference we are talking about is not questioning the order of turn left and from there on but when we get close enough to the ledge. The cliff is an interesting example and evidently you don't trust your dominant enough to say "stop". I'm not talking about blind obedience and I do thoroughly resent those implications. I want to see the fear and nervousness in your eyes and body as you approach that cliff, but if you "stop" of your own accord before I am ready then you'll never learn to trust me that far, and nor will you ever experience the thrill of getting that close to the edge. In other words, you're limiting yourself, and more than that, you're limiting me. It takes time to get to that point of trust, definitely, but you have to be willing to get there, and not just dabble your toes in the deep end of the pool. I'm going to keep taking you closer and closer to the cliff, showing you each step of the way that you can trust me, until your toes ARE at the edge. Again this all comes down to how much and in what way you trust your Master. Do you trust him to know what he is doing? Do you trust him to care absolutely for your well being, no matter what he might ask of you? Do you trust him to not spring something on you without any kind of discussion or forethought? The fact is obedience is a gray area that you want only two categories blind or not really in a severe relationship. That just is not reality of an M/s relationship on a day in and day out basis. Most of us trust and follow our Master’s extremely. We just also have brains and use them in these types of areas when we think it is needed because we have reasons. Relationships span the entire spectrum from barely submitted to total power exchange, across these relationships there is a widely variant level and nature of trust. However, as I said, if you're in a relationship where you need to outwardly question your master in order to have your concerns addressed and understood, then you're in the wrong relationship.

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