RE: Blind Obediance and Servitude

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hisannabelle -> RE: Blind Obediance and Servitude (10/10/2007 4:59:36 PM)
greetings slaverosebeauty, why do you consider complete trust to equate to blindness? i knew what i was getting into when i entered the relationship; i knew the man whose collar is around my neck. i knew what kind of man he is. i learned more as the relationship has gone on, but never has he given me a real reason to doubt my trust in him. as celeste said - i know from experience that i can trust him. one day he may disprove that, but i won't hold my breath. my choice to give up my boundaries, to give up my decision making ability (except for where he wishes me to retain it), to give up control over my life, and (at least in terms of our relationship as i cannot legally) to give up my ability to withdraw consent is not, to me, in any way illogical or a cop out. yes, it is a tremendous act of faith (actually, sometimes when i am discussing issues of trust i prefer to use the word faith not because it connotes blindness but because it has, to me, a connotation of absoluteness to it that trust does not), but i did not make that act of faith (and i do not continue the act in smaller ways day by day) without knowing what i was getting into. to me, WITHOUT that act of faith, i could not truly call myself his slave. i am not knocking relationships or people who choose to have boundaries, limits, etc., because this is what works for me, but i would not want to be owned by someone that i needed to place limits upon. i am his slave. i am his property. i am a woman, a lover, hopefully one day his wife, and yes, i have feelings, thoughts, and emotions as well, but i am property first and foremost. for me, taking that leap only part of the way and saying, "well, i'll be your slave under such and such condition as long as you don't do such and such to me" is not what it means to me to be a slave. it would go against my identity as a slave and would feel completely wrong to me. that said, do i ask questions? absolutely; he chooses whether or not to answer them. his refusing to answer a question, however, is not grounds for me to be unsatisfied with what i knew i signed on for. do i say when something is bothering me or i don't want to do it? sure. i'm giving him information. he chooses whether or not to change/stop - again, his action or inaction is not grounds for me to leave, however, just because he doesn't do what i want. would i jump off a cliff for him if i thought he were suffering from dementia? no, because if he ever got better he would beat me bloody for not using the good sense that has been drilled into me (in part by him) and for not paying attention to his mindstate at the time. but at the same time, would i ever refuse to do something (mundane or extreme) if i knew he was relatively rational when he told me to do it? i never have. i hope i never will; i sure as hell don't plan on it. i have my own thoughts because he wishes me to have them. property without independent thoughts or actions and without the ability to govern her own life is useless to him; he is not a micromanager, and besides, occasionally he likes conversation, too. we disagree on some things that we discuss (i'm a socialist tibetan buddhist and he's a republican theravada buddhist...it's the nature of life). we occasionally even gasp fight. but that does not change the fact that when it comes down to it, he will ALWAYS have my obedience, yes, because i do have absolute trust and faith in him. i think the problem i have with your post is that i feel like you first of all are denigrating absolute trust by calling it blind, and second of all are assuming that having absolute trust (and obedience) and having the ability to think critically and engage with one's master must be mutually exclusive. they are not, at least not for me. i would also like to reiterate that this in no way is a criticism of the way others choose their relationship path; this is what works for me. your mileage may vary. but i will damn well defend and explain it when someone is confused and/or attacking ;) greetings masterjim37, trust is not a cop out. trust (the kind of trust that we are discussing) takes a hell of a long time and a hell of a lot of emotional work to build. and the fact that i have absolute trust in him is not the ONLY thing in our relationship; yet again, i see these ridiculous leaps from one unrelated thing to another occurring. just because i have absolute trust in him does not make me blind; it also does not mean that is all there is to our relationship. we share a lot of things; we love crossword puzzles, we are both buddhist, we learn from each other's political and social perspectives and life experiences, we both love reading about history, and all sorts of other things. i am not a mindless, witless slave; as i mentioned earlier, he would not want property who could not handle herself (because he wants a joy, not a liability) or property who could not at least amuse him with conversation (although he appreciates our differences and what i bring to the relationship as a whole, not just me for amusement purposes). i also do not trust him not to ask something i am not willing to give. i gave up my ability to say no and to decide what i am and am not willing to do over a year and a half ago when he collared me. obviously if he one day decides to choke me to death, physical self-preservation instincts that i cannot override will cause me to fight back, and that is something that i cannot control. but i choose not to have any mental or emotional self-preservation where he is concerned, to the extent that i can control it, and when issues come up for me mentally or emotionally i work through them and i deal with them. greetings cara, as i have said before, i will not speak for others. it is not my place. i can only speak for who i am and how i live. for me, to retain limits and control is not to be a slave; that is not how i wish to live, and i would be unfulfilled in that kind of relationship. i would not choose to enter into a relationship where i had limits or retained control of my own free will (i control things like my finances and my schooling situation with his input for now because, as i mentioned before, he did not sign onto be a micromanager - but the control over those things ultimately rests with him should he choose to exercise it). your mileage may vary. there is nothing wrong with wanting something different from that; in my opinion, you should not be swayed by other people's ridicule (or in my case, lack of understanding of how it would work, because it would not work for me). you should do what is best for you and the person you are with, not what other people think makes a "good submissive" or a "good slave." if you ever wish to talk over cmail, i am here :) greetings toservez, thanks for your post, it made a lot of sense to me :) i just wanted to mention that to me, having absolute trust and obedience may -seem- romanticized when i talk about it, and that everything is always hunky dory. it's not, in reality. no relationship is perfect. it's just that i continue to retain my trust in him and to obey regardless of whether i agree, disagree, or am having a good or bad day, and i do actively work to sort out problems in the relationship and problems that i have personally; i do not allow them to be a barrier to trust or obedience. i think the two can coexist (absolute trust/obedience and having bad days or difficulties). sorry if i'm repeating what you said...that's just what your post brought up for me. i think it's a really good point, though. respectfully, annabelle.

flowspen -> RE: Blind Obediance and Servitude (10/10/2007 6:04:35 PM)
For me trust is not outside of myself. i learned to trust me first. i trust my judgement, i trust my decisions and i trust my actions. Most of all when i get to know someone i dont put expectations on them, for expectations come from me and not from them. If i put an expection upon someone more than likely they will let me down for it is my expectation and not theres. So i learned to trust that people will be who they really are and i keep a realistic face on the person i am dealing with. i dont change who they are in my mind, i dont put them on a pedalstole knowing they will surely fall. i use to have trust in people but i realized that i wasn't viewing people as they really were. by trusting that i am viewing a person for who they really are enhances my ability to trust blindly for i already know person as well as i know myself. i learn what they can do, what they can't, what there comfort levels are, there limits and then i trust in myself that i pay attention to them so i know where they stand, are they in an area that they have little experience in? if so i speak up. Basicially i trust my gut and all else falls into place for me to trust blindly because i control my trust levels. i kinda rambled on this, as i often do but i hope it makes sense.

slaverosebeauty -> RE: Blind Obediance and Servitude (10/10/2007 8:08:04 PM)
I have skimmed the replies and since it seems that I was a bit vague or that people are not looking at what I was saying as I hoped, let me clarify; HOPEFULLY this will work.... Too many on the boards say that they have given their full concent, obedicant, servitude to their partner, its 'blind.' They do NOT question their partner's actions; they base their relationship on what is called, 'blind trust.' I want to know HOW someone can trust blindly?? It's NOT logical to trust someone blindly or completly; using the reason that, 'I trust my partner' is a cop-out, it might be PART of why, but is it the ONLY reason?? If you take TRUST OUT of your relationship AND out of the answer to 'why', what do you have left??? Yes, I have discussed with with MJ, He KNOWS that I do NOT trust Him blindly and that I won't. I question, its part of who I am, if I did not, they I would be betraying who I am. I am not a sheep to be taken to the slaughter, so I DO question. At the end of the day, trust is what it is, it's trust, its NOT our [whole] relationship. Is your relationship one-dimential, or ar there other facets?? Taking trust OUT of your answer. Consider it a given or non-existant.

Tigrita -> RE: Blind Obediance and Servitude (10/10/2007 9:20:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slaverosebeauty *I want to know HOW someone can trust blindly??* Again, I don't agree with your use of the word blindly, but I will try to address what you are asking. I trust the way I do, to the degree of having no limits and no safe words and expecting that I will do my best to obey any demand for as long as that trust is present, by having established the required mental and emotional connection and experienced actions that earned that trust, and knowing that that trust goes both ways. Some can trust this way, some cannot. I never thought I would have been able to before I met Stephan. I don't disrespect you for who you are and the choices you make. Please don't disrespect me by judging me as blind and illogical and not being capable of independent thought, all are false assumptions based on false premises. quote: It's NOT logical to trust someone blindly or completely; using the reason that, 'I trust my partner' is a cop-out, it might be PART of why, but is it the ONLY reason?? I understand how it can seem illogical; I did used to feel that way. But when there is solid, reliable, and deep, emotional and intellectual reason to trust, and it causes both to grow and see ever more beauty in life than you saw before without that level of intimacy and trust, it becomes downright illogical to turn your back on that. quote: If you take TRUST OUT of your relationship AND out of the answer to 'why', what do you have left??? The why mostly goes behind the trust. There are certainly other important aspects of the relationship; common interests and activities, things we enjoy together that don't involve trust. But without trust, it is true, there would be no relationship, and there would be no reason for one. The kind of absolute trust we are talking about isn't required for every relationship, but for me, the stronger the trust, the stronger and more beautiful the relationship. That is just me, I get fulfillment from this. I'm not saying it must be so for you. Still, I don't really understand exactly what you are asking. It seems that you are asking "why do you trust someone absolutely?" and ask us to answer without taking trust into account. That operation is un-definable. Can you please clarify "take TRUST OUT of ... the answer to 'why' " why what.....? Okay, I'll suppose you mean why are you able to obey without question? As I said, I do question. Of course it runs through my head "Why am I doing this? Is it healthy? Is it worth it?" And because he has *earned* my trust and is a reliable, respectable person who I know (for all intents and purposes beyond a reasonable doubt as much as an imperfect human can) that he has my best interests at heart, the answers, I expect, will always be "because I love him and he loves me and this increases our intimacy and fulfills both of us; it is not unhealthy; and it is worth it." If any of those things change, serious work on the relationship ensues and it is corrected before I obey; or it ends. Those changes I doubt could happen in an instant that will scar one forever. There are signals to be perceived that things are not solid, and when people are able to communicate deeply and freely, these things can be worked through. And if it does change in one critical instant, well, then, I guess I will feel pretty shitty at that moment and be pretty well fucked, but I will have had a lot of beauty and fulfillment leading up to it. quote: I am not a sheep to be taken to the slaughter, Nor am I so I DO question. So do I At the end of the day, trust is what it is, it's trust, and it’s NOT our [whole] relationship. Yes, it is; and neither is it mine. But without trust, and the level of trust we have, the relationship would not be the kind that fulfills me most. That is me; it doesn't have to be true for you. quote: Is your relationship one-dimential, or ar there other facets?? Taking trust OUT of your answer. Consider it a given or non-existant. Yes, there is dorky, hilarious laughter; deep intellectual discussions about things profound and mundane; the way every atom in my body stops vibrating and melts into a soft, warm puddle when I hear him play his guitar; the way he can usually finish my thoughts as well if not better than I could myself as if I was an open book, but knows it is better if I finish them myself; the way I'm drawn to him like a moth to a bright, warm flame in a monstrous darkness; the spirit of adventure, primality, altruism, darkness, and light that we share. None of those things require trust, but many of them contribute to it. I hope that helps you understand and will discourage you from being so judgmental. I'm glad you've found happiness in your style of relationship. I've found happiness in mine. Please don't judge mine, as I don't judge yours. ~ J

hisannabelle -> RE: Blind Obediance and Servitude (10/10/2007 10:45:59 PM)
greetings slaverosebeauty, i do not understand why it is blind to completely trust one's partner. i knew what kind of a person he was before he collared me; i know what kind of a person he is now. he has never given me any reason to do anything BUT trust him. i would be completely unhappy and unfulfilled in a relationship where i did not trust the person enough to give them my full obedience. in what way is that a cop-out? as i have already said, there are plenty of other things we share in our relationship besides trust. however, without this level of trust (or at least the possibility of building up to it in a new relationship), i would not want the relationship. absolute trust is one of the bases of our relationship (along with love, honesty, and openness/acceptance). we are also compatible and enjoy interests/learning from each other in many other areas. there's no point in taking trust out of the relationship, because i would be unhappy and so would he. if i did not trust him enough to give him my full obedience, i would not be who i am as a slave; there would be no point to me (nor to him). i'm afraid, since you seem to be completely ignoring/misunderstanding what i've said in response to you, that i just don't understand what you're asking, why you're asking it, or why it is you seem to think that everyone should do it your way rather than this way. i am not expecting everyone to do it my way. but my way is what works for me. why is that suddenly a cop-out? if there's absolute trust, that doesn't mean that's ALL there is in the relationship. respectfully, annabelle.

SixFootMaster -> RE: Blind Obediance and Servitude (10/10/2007 10:59:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slaverosebeauty I have skimmed the replies and since it seems that I was a bit vague or that people are not looking at what I was saying as I hoped, let me clarify; HOPEFULLY this will work.... Too many on the boards say that they have given their full concent, obedicant, servitude to their partner, its 'blind.' They do NOT question their partner's actions; they base their relationship on what is called, 'blind trust.' I want to know HOW someone can trust blindly?? It's NOT logical to trust someone blindly or completly; using the reason that, 'I trust my partner' is a cop-out, it might be PART of why, but is it the ONLY reason?? If you take TRUST OUT of your relationship AND out of the answer to 'why', what do you have left??? Yes, I have discussed with with MJ, He KNOWS that I do NOT trust Him blindly and that I won't. I question, its part of who I am, if I did not, they I would be betraying who I am. I am not a sheep to be taken to the slaughter, so I DO question. At the end of the day, trust is what it is, it's trust, its NOT our [whole] relationship. Is your relationship one-dimential, or ar there other facets?? Taking trust OUT of your answer. Consider it a given or non-existant. Okay, I officially think you're seeking attention and that "I'm special" feeling, by trying to show people up or make yourself sound somehow better than everyone else. However, I'll play with you one more time: There is a chasm of difference between "blind trust' and "earned trust". If you don't know this, you don't belong in this lifestyle. In almost every single case, the Master has proven his trustworthiness and care for his girl, before she surrendered to him, knowing full well that she was giving up control of her life to another person. There is nothing 'blind' about this. Any collared slave who questions their Master's demands and requirements, and practices second guessing him, submits and obeys only when it suits them, is no slave at all. Let me repeat that "IS NO SLAVE AT ALL". Just because you label yourself such, does not make you one. Now run along.

BitaTruble -> RE: Blind Obediance and Servitude (10/11/2007 12:01:48 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slaverosebeauty They do NOT question their partner's actions; they base their relationship on what is called, 'blind trust.' I want to know HOW someone can trust blindly?? Twelve years of absolutely consistent behavior. If he says he will do a thing, he will do it. If he says he will never do a thing, he will never do it. That isn't blind though, that's earned to the point where I don't need to see anymore to be assured he is what he says he is and he'll do what he says he'll do. quote: It's NOT logical to trust someone blindly or completly; using the reason that, 'I trust my partner' is a cop-out, it might be PART of why, but is it the ONLY reason?? It's not logical to assume someone who is and always has been consistent in their deeds and actions is going to suddenly become inconsistent. For me, no, its not the 'only' reason. I also made a pledge to submit, to obey. My vow and his consistency are each a part of the whole and there are other parts as well. quote: If you take TRUST OUT of your relationship AND out of the answer to 'why', what do you have left??? An unstable relationship in which you have to be extrodinarily vigilent to make sure you are not hurt either physically, mentally, financially or emotionally. Sounds like a pretty sucky sort of relationship to me. I wouldn't want that for myself, but to each their own. quote: Yes, I have discussed with with MJ, He KNOWS that I do NOT trust Him blindly and that I won't. If that's what works for you two, then that's what works. I'm curious as to why you want to know so much about the issue if you are determined you will never reach that level of trust in your own relationship? quote: I question, its part of who I am, if I did not, they I would be betraying who I am. I think it's good you know who you are as long as you don't believe that everyone else is exactly like you, it's all good. You see, some of us got all the answers we need and have turned to internal questions because the external ones are taken care of and it's how we, now, grow. quote: I am not a sheep to be taken to the slaughter, so I DO question. I didn't get involved with someone who wants to slaughter me. Did you? quote: At the end of the day, trust is what it is, it's trust, its NOT our [whole] relationship. Neither is 'trust' the whole relationship I share with Himself. It's only one part of the whole, but it's a vital part and without it, there is no heartbeat to sustain the M/s. quote: Is your relationship one-dimential, or ar there other facets?? This seems a rather silly question to me and to answer it only gives it some sort of credibility that it doesn't deserve. Moving on... quote: Taking trust OUT of your answer. Consider it a given or non-existant. If I consider it a given, then it's not, truly, out of the relationship, is it? If it's non-existant, the relationship I share with Himself cannot exist in it's current form. What is left when you take the trust out of 'your' relationship? You say that you don't trust your Master completely, but certainly you must trust him a bit to be involved with him? I'm curious as to why you don't trust him completely? Is it because you know, as a human, that he is imperfect and will make mistakes on occasion so you need to retain a wall that allows you to put it up and say no? I'm just curious as you seem to be so vehement on the issue, but perhaps that's just your writing style. Celeste

BeingChewsie -> RE: Blind Obediance and Servitude (10/11/2007 6:19:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slaverosebeauty If you take TRUST OUT of your relationship AND out of the answer to 'why', what do you have left??? What would be left would be a relationship type that I would want nothing to do with at this point in my life. I have experienced the freedom and joy that comes from being able to trust absolutely. I have experienced letting go and not having to worry that I might need to grab the wheel back on my life. I would not go back to a relationship where I had that little nagging voice telling me "You can't really trust him". It strikes me as a very sad and conflicted existence. I prefer the consistency and serenity that is my life. quote: Yes, I have discussed with with MJ, He KNOWS that I do NOT trust Him blindly and that I won't. I question, its part of who I am, if I did not, they I would be betraying who I am. I am not a sheep to be taken to the slaughter, so I DO question. At the end of the day, trust is what it is, it's trust, its NOT our [whole] relationship. Great, you should be true to who you are. Why concern yourself about people who live differently? quote: Is your relationship one-dimential, or ar there other facets?? Taking trust OUT of your answer. Consider it a given or non-existant. I'm not sure what you mean. There is nothing in his character or actions to question. We know each other and have known each other almost a decade. We are transparent with one another, neither of us is out to leave, hurt or destroy the other. We are a team, we play for the same team, especially when it comes to this relationship and to each other. It is the difference between living next to each other and living inside each other.

Sabella -> RE: Blind Obediance and Servitude (10/11/2007 7:17:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slaverosebeauty It seems like a theme that I hear and see over and over and over the, "I gave up concent" or the "I trust my partner fully" etc. Where does this blindness come from?? Trust is a cop out answer, since trust is relative and it's dependant on many factors. What is the appeal of following blindly?? I see it alot too, and I think it's often unwarranted to blindly go where no sub/slave/person has gone before [8D] but sometimes a person may feel compelled when entering this type of relationship (whatever flavor it may be) to attempt to cast reason aside and just go with it with a complete stranger or someone they've known a very short time. Some amazing, or terrible things may result. Just reaching the point where the decision is made to make a radical change can be terrifying. I think the drive behind it sometimes may be not unlike jumping off the high dive. What will happen? let's find out. quote: I'm NOT your typical slave, never have been, never will be; I question the questions and I question the answers, I also question blind and illogical actions and thoughts. I don't follow blindly, I question; its part of the 'job description' as it were; to remember that my priority is to have a mind of my own and to have independant thoughts and to question what goes on around me and to me. Did I miss a day in slave school where it said that following blindly is the norm or that its a safe or logical or rational idea?! I don't think there is anything wrong with questioning, neither does the wonderful man I'm with who loves all of me - especially my mind. I still question from time to time and we've been in this relationship for going on 15 years! I've had alot of pre-programming to unlearn, this was my valid excuse in the beginning. [:D] When I feel uncertainty I'll question and we'll discuss it. Other times (because I do trust him) I just leap. Or he'll simply say "I've got this" and I know the answer I'm looking for will be revealed later, almost always to my delight. A deep level of trust for me IS earned. Within a relationship some things are learned rather quickly. If they are trustworthy with your feelings, your views, your hard limits (and no, I'm not talking just about bedroom play either). If you feel they genuinely care about YOU - its very exciting to trust and make that leap and trust YOURSELF as well.

toservez -> RE: Blind Obediance and Servitude (10/11/2007 9:40:19 AM)
quote: greetings toservez, thanks for your post, it made a lot of sense to me :) i just wanted to mention that to me, having absolute trust and obedience may -seem- romanticized when i talk about it, and that everything is always hunky dory. it's not, in reality. no relationship is perfect. it's just that i continue to retain my trust in him and to obey regardless of whether i agree, disagree, or am having a good or bad day, and i do actively work to sort out problems in the relationship and problems that i have personally; i do not allow them to be a barrier to trust or obedience. i think the two can coexist (absolute trust/obedience and having bad days or difficulties). sorry if i'm repeating what you said...that's just what your post brought up for me. i think it's a really good point, though. Thank you very much for writing this. I was very worried what I wrote would be misconstrued that I was trying to diminish people who use these terms which was in fact the opposite of what I was going for. I was just trying to point out reality and significant power exchange can go hand in hand without theoretical if you say this that must mean this to the absolute extreme vacuum context that people confuse. As you and others have pointed out blind obedience and turning our brains off and not dealing with unhappiness and problems are two different things.

shycara -> RE: Blind Obediance and Servitude (10/11/2007 6:04:05 PM)
i just wanted to say thank you to all, especially those who were kind enough to write to me on this thread...Tigrita, i found the quote below really helpful...it's hard to envision how 'no limits' works in real life for someone like myself, who has never tried it. this is so authentic and so rich in its description of your inner process...i don't know if i'll ever be in a similar situation, but i feel like you've helped me to understand it better. cara quote: Okay, I'll suppose you mean why are you able to obey without question? As I said, I do question. Of course it runs through my head "Why am I doing this? Is it healthy? Is it worth it?" And because he has *earned* my trust and is a reliable, respectable person who I know (for all intents and purposes beyond a reasonable doubt as much as an imperfect human can) that he has my best interests at heart, the answers, I expect, will always be "because I love him and he loves me and this increases our intimacy and fulfills both of us; it is not unhealthy; and it is worth it." If any of those things change, serious work on the relationship ensues and it is corrected before I obey; or it ends. Those changes I doubt could happen in an instant that will scar one forever. There are signals to be perceived that things are not solid, and when people are able to communicate deeply and freely, these things can be worked through. And if it does change in one critical instant, well, then, I guess I will feel pretty shitty at that moment and be pretty well fucked, but I will have had a lot of beauty and fulfillment leading up to it.

Tigrita -> RE: Blind Obediance and Servitude (10/11/2007 6:21:23 PM)
Thank you shycara. The whole point of the forums is support and exchange of ideas and info. I'm very glad that is happening to positive effect and to be part of it. Best wishes, ~ J

susie -> RE: Blind Obediance and Servitude (10/11/2007 11:51:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slaverosebeauty If you take TRUST OUT of your relationship AND out of the answer to 'why', what do you have left??? If you take trust out of my relationship, there would be no relationship. I have total trust in my Master, in his honesty, his loyalty, his vision for our relationship so many things. But this is not a one way street. He has the same total trust in me. It is not blind trust as you call it but it is a trust that has come from knowing the other person, loving them, caring for them and knowing that they feel the same for you.

ownedgirlie -> RE: Blind Obediance and Servitude (10/12/2007 12:33:29 AM)
I haven't read all the replies. To me, "blind obedience" would be akin to obeying a stranger. My obedience to my Master was not done blindly at all. I learned who he was before I was able to begin truly giving myself over to him. I'd say my submission and obedience has been done with my eyes wide open. And he always let me know what was coming down the road for me. Three years as his slave has me questioning nothing, accepting everything, and trusting his decisions.

RCdc -> RE: Blind Obediance and Servitude (10/12/2007 3:01:08 AM)
Define 'blind'. Do you trust yourself blindly? Are you 'blind' to yourself? If you understand faith and consistancy - then blind is a complete misrepresentation in your statement. It serves only a personal agenda to belittle that some people have trust in others. If you have had a bad time, or bad experiences and cannot grasp the aspects of freedom that having faith in other people can give, then that is your responsibility to yourself to basically, get over it and deal with it - but don't make the assumption that people are simply 'blind'. the.dark.

SixFootMaster -> RE: Blind Obediance and Servitude (10/12/2007 3:48:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark Define 'blind'. Do you trust yourself blindly? Are you 'blind' to yourself? If you understand faith and consistancy - then blind is a complete misrepresentation in your statement. It serves only a personal agenda to belittle that some people have trust in others. If you have had a bad time, or bad experiences and cannot grasp the aspects of freedom that having faith in other people can give, then that is your responsibility to yourself to basically, get over it and deal with it - but don't make the assumption that people are simply 'blind'. the.dark. That is a good point as well - consider for a moment who is most likely in possession of the information to make a judgement call or decision in regards to things that are done between Master and slave. A good Master will research what he wants to do, he will understand the dangers and account for them, and he will plan for his slave's safety. He knows what he is doing, how he is going to do it, and why. Now, the slave only knows what he is doing. So, should she trust herself , second guess her Master and assume he doesn't know these things? It is also a form of 'blindness' for a slave to assume she knows better than her Master, even if he were to answer her questions.

rob425 -> RE: Blind Obediance and Servitude (10/12/2007 4:57:52 AM)
Mindless Submissive: "Anything you want Mistress. No Limits." Dominant: "Alright fetch me the hedge clippers it's castration time!!!!"[:-]

xoxi -> RE: Blind Obediance and Servitude (10/12/2007 8:04:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SixFootMaster That is a good point as well - consider for a moment who is most likely in possession of the information to make a judgement call or decision in regards to things that are done between Master and slave. A good Master will research what he wants to do, he will understand the dangers and account for them, and he will plan for his slave's safety. He knows what he is doing, how he is going to do it, and why. Now, the slave only knows what he is doing. So, should she trust herself , second guess her Master and assume he doesn't know these things? It is also a form of 'blindness' for a slave to assume she knows better than her Master, even if he were to answer her questions. I'm sorry but I don't see second guessing as assuming one knows better...just that one wants to know fully what they are getting into before they do. The word 'Master' has so many meanings - one of which is 'expert' and in that sense a slave can be a 'master' as well. If a slave has twenty years of experience in suspensions, and her Master has two months, I wouldn't expect her not to second guess, especially when the second guessing takes the form of "unless you distribute my weight to my stomach you will pull my arms out of their sockets." Sometimes gasp a slave knows more than her master. Not only that but she knows her own body - she's lived with it her whole life. If a slave says 'my jaw can't open further than this' and he says 'I bet I can make it' should she risk going to the hospital with a dislocated jaw?? I don't think that submission should preclude common sense, and only a fool would submit to something they know will injure them.

toservez -> RE: Blind Obediance and Servitude (10/12/2007 9:12:58 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: xoxi quote: ORIGINAL: SixFootMaster That is a good point as well - consider for a moment who is most likely in possession of the information to make a judgement call or decision in regards to things that are done between Master and slave. A good Master will research what he wants to do, he will understand the dangers and account for them, and he will plan for his slave's safety. He knows what he is doing, how he is going to do it, and why. Now, the slave only knows what he is doing. So, should she trust herself , second guess her Master and assume he doesn't know these things? It is also a form of 'blindness' for a slave to assume she knows better than her Master, even if he were to answer her questions. I'm sorry but I don't see second guessing as assuming one knows better...just that one wants to know fully what they are getting into before they do. The word 'Master' has so many meanings - one of which is 'expert' and in that sense a slave can be a 'master' as well. If a slave has twenty years of experience in suspensions, and her Master has two months, I wouldn't expect her not to second guess, especially when the second guessing takes the form of "unless you distribute my weight to my stomach you will pull my arms out of their sockets." Sometimes gasp a slave knows more than her master. Not only that but she knows her own body - she's lived with it her whole life. If a slave says 'my jaw can't open further than this' and he says 'I bet I can make it' should she risk going to the hospital with a dislocated jaw?? I don't think that submission should preclude common sense, and only a fool would submit to something they know will injure them. I agree with xoxi. I am sorry if this is offensive but what you are communicating is just theoretical babble. Dominant is human being which by default means not all knowing, wise or perfect. Dominant does not research and consider everything coming out of their mouths and other actions. I think what this thread is about and what most have written is blind obedience with reality for two healthy people in a relationship. A healthy submissive has a brain. In this life like all other relationships there is mutual respect and to promote theoretical dominant always knows what they are doing is just complete cyber babble. No one here wrote in a way to diminish the power or wisdom of a dominant and especially theirs. Writing on the basis of a submissive not knowing/trusting their Master well enough is very different to know when they have researched or thought out everything and when something is needed to be brought up for the best in everyone.

Tigrita -> RE: Blind Obediance and Servitude (10/12/2007 11:03:45 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: xoxi quote: ORIGINAL: SixFootMaster consider for a moment who is most likely in possession of the information to make a judgement call or decision in regards to things that are done between Master and slave. A good Master will research what he wants to do, he will understand the dangers and account for them, and he will plan for his slave's safety. He knows what he is doing, how he is going to do it, and why. Now, the slave only knows what he is doing. This doesen't have to be true, the slave can have a part in the research too, and know the motivations. It can be argued that this could make the act more intimate, if both understand the whys. Of course I understand circumsances where the sub shouldn't know, for shock factor etc. So, should she trust herself , second guess her Master and assume he doesn't know these things? It is also a form of 'blindness' for a slave to assume she knows better than her Master, even if he were to answer her questions. As xoxi said, sometimes the sub can know better than the dom. Anyone who I'd submit to would recognize this and value my knowledge in areas of life that are greater than his and not be so crudely arrogant. Sometimes gasp a slave knows more than her master. Not only that but she knows her own body - she's lived with it her whole life. If a slave says 'my jaw can't open further than this' and he says 'I bet I can make it' should she risk going to the hospital with a dislocated jaw?? I don't think that submission should preclude common sense, and only a fool would submit to something they know will injure them. Exactly, I wouldn't submit to someone who would have this mindset to begin with, I'd know them better than that before I'd give them my loyalty, trust, and obedience. So for me this doesn't fit in the concept of second-guessing your dom/master, because that person would not be such to me.

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