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RE: Has disobedience ever caused the end? - 10/11/2007 4:14:10 AM   
Celeste43


Posts: 3066
Joined: 2/4/2006
From: NYS
Status: offline 		I would imagine setting up a sword of damocles like that would cause a rule to be quickly broken, to end the relationship. Being told that if you are human and make one mistake, you'll be tossed to the curb without any rhyme or reason; no matter if your child is in the hospital or your mother died, would cause any sub to reconsider her choice of dominant. Moreover for those of us with anxiety disorders, or higher than normal level of anxiety, the anxiety caused by worrying about inevitably making a mistake causes us to make the mistake earlier in order not to have to keep worrying. Since after all, it's a set up to fail because being human, we are going to make mistakes.

Personally I have nothing but contempt for so called dominants who get off on setting people up to fail so they have an excuse to punish. Of which this is just a more extreme example.

(in reply to agirl)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Has disobedience ever caused the end? - 10/11/2007 5:07:49 AM   
MistressHolly71


Posts: 354
Joined: 7/4/2007
From: Southern Maryland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann
the dominant might give an instruction the submissive is unwilling or unable to comply; 


A dominant should know whether or not a sub is able to do something.  I will not ask a sub to do something that they aren't able to do either physically or mentally.  If they're unwilling to do something, it depends on what & why. Generally as long as it's not a trust issue, I'll find a suitable punishment.


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(in reply to Stephann)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Has disobedience ever caused the end? - 10/11/2007 8:03:31 AM   
Stephann


Posts: 4214
Joined: 12/27/2006
From: Portland, OR
Status: offline 		Ok folks, so here was my agenda.

Over Here we had a thread dealing with blind obedience.  That led me to thinking and wondering about how relationships that appear to be based on an obdience factor are perceived to hinge almost exclusively on that factor.

The majority responses on this thread suggest to me that no matter how important obedience was to the relationship, it was the erosion of trust (usually over time) that led to relationships failing and not any one sword of Damocles (thank you Celeste for reminding me of that.)

It (should seem) obvious that when the submissive in a relationship no longer trusts the dominant, obedience becomes difficult.  In the Marines, one of the things we learned in boot camp was drill.  Drill is what you call the tight formations marching to and fro, in sync.  One of the purposes of drill is to instill the concept of "Instant Obedience to Orders."  It's something every Marine recruit repeats well over a hundred times during their training.  Obviously, in battle, you do as your told or you die or possibly end up killing your buddy.  There usually isn't a huge gap of time to consider the wisdom of orders in combat, though if time does permit (say in peacetime or normal workday operations) some leeway in asking for clarification or offering alternatives is permitted.  I will say that this demonstrates the enormous amount of trust servicemembers are required to demonstrate in their superiors; the assumption when dealing with a new leader, is that they are worthy of trust until proven otherwise.  Should the leader in question violate that trust... well, it's not pretty.

So too with relationships. 

Stephan

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(in reply to MistressHolly71)
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RE: Has disobedience ever caused the end? - 10/11/2007 10:41:08 AM   
Pulpsmack


Posts: 394
Joined: 4/15/2004
From: Louisiana
Status: offline 		Mistakes will be made on both sides of the equation. Mistakes can be corrected. Defiance is not a mistake. It is a contemplated, willful disregard of what I try to establish. If such defiance is excused the Dom/es undermine their own authority. I might make one rare exception initially, and put the sub in her place. I will never do it twice.

(in reply to Stephann)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Has disobedience ever caused the end? - 10/11/2007 11:57:15 AM   
slavetsina


Posts: 8
Joined: 12/7/2006
Status: offline 		 i have just been released because i left my former Master.

At first, all He required obedience and compliance which i could provide forever without fail.  Then, He insisted on me being "happy" at all times as well.

Long story short, after 14 months of 24/7, live in fulltime slavery, it's over.  i have lost home, job and Master/vanilla partner in one stroke.

But i realise now that nothing i could ever provide ever would have been enough.  He just did not like the vanilla me in reality and being a slave 24/7 around family and colleagues is difficult to maintain.

*sigh*

former slave tsina

(in reply to Stephann)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Has disobedience ever caused the end? - 10/11/2007 12:19:05 PM   
CreativeDominant


Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
Status: offline 		I've been in three long-term D/s relationships.  Disobedience was not the end of any of them.  Other factors came into play in each instance, gone over on these threads previously.

I have my views regarding disobedience and defiance.  Disobedience is going to happen...sometimes accidentally, sometimes due to miscommunication, sometimes due to carelessness.  That can be dealt with and should be dealt with.  If no correction is seen, then...as often stated on here...there may be a bigger problem and longer and/or more serious discussion needs to take place.  As you can see from what I have said here, I am not a big fan of release for someone being human;  not a big fan of release for a submissive having issues which are making it hard for her to obey.  If you release without discussion...and you promised discussion and communication when you first agreed to dominate...then you have broken a bigger trust than she did with her disobedience, in my opinion.

Defiance is an entirely different thing than disobedience.  However, I would again wish to engage in discussion as to what is going on.  If the defiance continues despite your efforts to change things/correct things/whatever was agreed to during the discussion, then you have to make a decision.  For me, ongoing defiance, after a discussion and a change of ways, is an indication of things I don't want to deal with....lack of respect, perhaps deeply-seated issues of insecurity creating a need to challenge someone (me) to "prove" they "really care" and can "really dominate" them, whatever.  At that point, there would most likely be a suggestion made to seek counseling or seek the door because, as I have stated before, I wish to be someone's dominant/lover/confidante/friend but not their therapist.

(in reply to Stephann)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Has disobedience ever caused the end? - 10/11/2007 3:49:43 PM   
thetammyjo


Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline 		In my household each of us in the Ds or Ms relationship is responsible for maintaining it. In terms of obedience this requires me to be clear with orders or expectations and it requires my sub or slave to fulfill those.

Disobeying once can be a sign that the dynamic is unclear, disobeying repeatedly though is simply not fulfilling the obligation.

If the mutual obligations aren't being fulfilled is there a relationship to end or is it a matter or realizing that it over?

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(in reply to Stephann)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Has disobedience ever caused the end? - 10/11/2007 3:56:58 PM   
HutchGarahl


Posts: 562
Joined: 1/10/2007
Status: offline 		A refusal of just one rule alone usually don't gain release from me..but more consistance on disobedience and refusal will. I've only had one instant where a single broken rule resulted in immediate dismissal.

(in reply to Stephann)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Has disobedience ever caused the end? - 10/11/2007 9:30:32 PM   
GoddessDustyGold


Posts: 2822
Joined: 4/11/2004
From: Arizona
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Pulpsmack

Mistakes will be made on both sides of the equation. Mistakes can be corrected. Defiance is not a mistake. It is a contemplated, willful disregard of what I try to establish. If such defiance is excused the Dom/es undermine their own authority. I might make one rare exception initially, and put the sub in her place. I will never do it twice.


Thank you for helping Me with the words, Pulpsmack!
That is precisely why I was compelled to release My last boy.  I am not sure he sees that to this day.  Ah well...I will add that the circumstances of that defiance did not even leave Me the wiggle room to make that one rare exception. 
And it was a matter of a complete erosion of trust.  

_____________________________

Dusty
They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety
B Franklin
Don't blame Me ~ I didn't vote for either of them
The Hidden Kingdom


(in reply to Pulpsmack)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Has disobedience ever caused the end? - 10/12/2007 10:00:22 PM   
erebus


Posts: 169
Joined: 1/15/2004
Status: offline 		It is more of a problem with the pattern of disobedience.  I am a patient man, but every patient man has his limits. 

If I'm seriously annoyed with repeat disobedience, lying, willful disregard of my wishes, then it's over.  And I've done it with no regrets.  One has to be prepared never to see the other again.

Perhaps, as some have suggested, this is just a way to get released.  Maybe so, and it worked.  Though it would have been easier on all if she just asked!

(in reply to HutchGarahl)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Has disobedience ever caused the end? - 10/12/2007 10:09:20 PM   
corsetgirl


Posts: 824
Joined: 5/22/2004
Status: offline 		I think I was disobedient with a dom because this man was more into searching the internet than talking to me and he was local.  So, I was sarcastic with him and that ended the whole relationship.  Perhaps, I should have been more respectful to him but I felt at that time, he did not care for me. 

I think communication should be a two-way street and as a sub, I don't feel I need to make an effort to chase a dom all of the time in order to be close to him.  There has to be some effort from both parties in order to make things work.

I look at this experience as something I have learned and would rather have a dom who is a very caring person, not someone who has the emotions of a brick wall.

< Message edited by corsetgirl -- 10/12/2007 10:12:18 PM >

(in reply to erebus)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Has disobedience ever caused the end? - 10/13/2007 8:55:00 PM   
shycara


Posts: 12
Joined: 5/26/2007
Status: offline 		Stephann i think you read my mind with this question...and i'm most comforted by the dominant man who said that commitment should go both ways...i'm grateful to hear that. it makes me feel anxious and not want to fall in love with a dominant man if i could lose him just because i made my own decisions sometimes. i don't know...does that make me not a submissive woman? i prefer to obey...but i feel a responsibility not to sometimes, especially if i'm concerned about the effect of my actions on the welfare of others.
 
cara

(in reply to corsetgirl)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Has disobedience ever caused the end? - 10/13/2007 9:46:00 PM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		I don't think you can distinguish like that.  I released a slave who cheated on me, and it was because she cheated on me.  If I had had a different kind of relationship with her, maybe I would have tolerated it.  But for a slave that's the end.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann

I would prefer the question to reflect D/s rules; "I was released because I cheated on him, and that broke a 'no cheating' rule" isn't really what I have in mind here.

(in reply to Stephann)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Has disobedience ever caused the end? - 10/13/2007 10:47:58 PM   
taintedgypsy


Posts: 228
Joined: 2/10/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant
Defiance is an entirely different thing than disobedience.  However, I would again wish to engage in discussion as to what is going on.  If the defiance continues despite your efforts to change things/correct things/whatever was agreed to during the discussion, then you have to make a decision.  For me, ongoing defiance, after a discussion and a change of ways, is an indication of things I don't want to deal with....lack of respect, perhaps deeply-seated issues of insecurity creating a need to challenge someone (me) to "prove" they "really care" and can "really dominate" them, whatever.  At that point, there would most likely be a suggestion made to seek counseling or seek the door because, as I have stated before, I wish to be someone's dominant/lover/confidante/friend but not their therapist.


These words ring bells for me ... I was released and the relationship over because of repeated disrespect, disobedience and all in all turning his life into rollercoaster from hell. There are pages and pages I could right but the bottom line is I should never have been in that collar ... I was not stable enough at the time to be in a relationship and I definately went down the road of  "perhaps deeply-seated issues of insecurity creating a need to challenge someone (me) to "prove" they "really care" and can "really dominate" them, whatever".  In the end I came home and got the theraphy I needed and expelled the demons ... point is in the begining it appeared a healthy relationship and all was good but I look back and it was not because I was not. I fall into the camp that these sort of things should not happen in a "healthy" relationship and that if they are occurring on a frequent basis then the relationship is probably no longer healthy?

I would not enter a relationship that offered so much room for insecurity by having a disobediance one strike and your out deal ... I just do not need that sort of pressure. Even stronger and feeling emotionally sound, I need the security of knowing that I am accepted warts and all ... I will never be an easy street option lol ... I am definately in the "I enjoy a challenge" Dom camp lol. I have so much to give and so much value to bring to a relationship yet I will always be a little needy, I will always have a little insecurity and they will be kept under control by me because I am in a loving, carring relationship that allows me the strength to cap them, not one where I fail to keep them in control for one time out of twenty and I am out the door. Unacceptable dynamic for me. It is hard to place a simplistic no compromise rule into a relationship involving complex people.

just my 2 cents worth 

_____________________________

..."Life is not about waiting for the storms to pass ... It is about learning to dance in the rain."

Equal Opportunity Slut (Yeah ... best of both worlds lol)

warm smiles to all

(in reply to CreativeDominant)
Profile   Post #: 54
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